Worth a notation: Nobody mentioned seeing her bike except the 15y female witness.
Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #2 *killer identified*
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Worth a notation: Nobody mentioned seeing her bike except the 15y female witness.
There was a feed-mill (its farm supply/co-op) same thing when I was in Queensville I was trying to ascertain what KJ was saying that JP could see the driveway from the house. You cant, or at least I couldn't.
There was a feed-mill (its farm supply/co-op) same thing when I was in Queensville I was trying to ascertain what KJ was saying that JP could see the driveway from the house. You cant, or at least I couldn't.
I cant see the picture for some reason but the wikipedia page for Queensville shows the Feedmill.
Dedpanman
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See post #17, page 1 of this thread.
Queenville Farm Supply
1631 Queensville Side Road Queensville ONFarm supplies, farm feed store, farm feeds, farm fencing supplies, seeds, clothing, pet food,*animal feed, veterinary supplies, Queensville Farm Supply serving Ontario Pinnacle horse bedding, Pinnacle pine horse bedding, Queensville Farm Supply Queensville Ontario Horse bedding, …*veterinary supplies
Its just semantics.
1631 Queensville Side Road Queensville ONFarm supplies, farm feed store, farm feeds, farm fencing supplies, seeds, clothing, pet food,*animal feed, veterinary supplies, Queensville Farm Supply serving Ontario Pinnacle horse bedding, Pinnacle pine horse bedding, Queensville Farm Supply Queensville Ontario Horse bedding, …*veterinary supplies
Its just semantics.
Dedpanman
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Just an FYI, readers, see post #12 on page 1 of this thread for the chapter on Morin/Christine Jessop in pdf format from "Manufacturing Guilt: Wrongful Convictions in Canada" by Barrie Anderson...
Dedpanman
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The distance from the Jessops driveway to the intersection of Leslie and Ravenshoe is 5.53 km or 3.43 miles. The speed limit in Queensville is 50km/hr to the village limits, then it becomes 80km/hr. Leslie Street (Regional Road 12) is fairly flat all the way north to the intersection at Ravenshoe.
One could be at Ravenshoe in 5 to 8 minutes depending on whether you were observing posted speed limits or not. The speed of other traffic ahead of you might also be a variable.
The intersection where the store is located is like the bottom of a bowl in Queensville. Where the two streets intersect going outward from this point your going uphill (not steep inclines mind you, towards the jessops and the coop is steeper than towards the 400 or the school. Regardless of trees you would be able to see the Jessop driveway. Its only about 500 or 600 metres away. I can see this.
I have a question though: JP worked at the coop + small town most people would likely recognize that it was his car at the jessops driveway including GPM 's sister Yvette who claimed to see a car on the shoulder across from the Jessops at about 3:45. Historical Note: JP's family was one of the first family's that settled queensville. They had been there a long time. So they were likely known around town.
There is an obituary for Mary Foster the Mother in law in the star on the 20th of December 2008 so at that Date JP was still alive (assumption) because it lists the family predeceased in the obituary.
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Heyya Mistysues,
MF obit:
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/thestar/obituary.aspx?n=mary-ellen-foster&pid=121582037#fbLoggedOut
Thread 2, post 46:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville ON, 3 October 1984 #2 UNSOLVED
JP died b4 2004 - KJ
Your awesome!! Thank you!! When I try to add attachments it doesn't seem to work. Im probably doing something wrong. Thanks again.
Thread 1, post 1044:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville ON, murdered 3 October 1984 - #1
3. Where did JP (name redacted) live in 1984?
Just north of our house in the flats-KJ
********************************
Can this location be pinpointed?
Relating to the KJ scenario,
I can understand why JP as perp would not take a route that passes
his place of employment,
but does the Ravenshoe route take him past his apartment?
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville ON, murdered 3 October 1984 - #1
3. Where did JP (name redacted) live in 1984?
Just north of our house in the flats-KJ
********************************
Can this location be pinpointed?
Relating to the KJ scenario,
I can understand why JP as perp would not take a route that passes
his place of employment,
but does the Ravenshoe route take him past his apartment?
Actually Tadpole12, there are no apartments anywhere north of the store at Leslie St and Q'ville Sr - not then and not today. Houses and farms only until you reach Keswick.
KJ did not say JP lived in an apartment. Which would be correct for the location given.
Unfortunately we have R saying JP lived in the apartment over the tractor dealership beside the store - which means JP had to pass where he lived to get to the J home. Ravenshoe Road is then north of the J home, the apartment is south.
Now there is question on who was driving the high school bus and supposedly saw a blue car (JP's?) in the J driveway that day. So who made a report to LE that no one has ever heard of?
---------------
Have been musing on the obit posted by Mistysues, which is not definitive as being the JP discussed here, but could be. Using the dob for the deceased and the number of children in birth order, I place daughter BF (Mrs JP) born between 1955 and 1960 - making her 25 - 30 in 1984. If she was close in age to husband JP that would make him almost a decade younger than BJ in 1984, who was 41-42.
BJ took someone almost a decade younger than him into his confidence about his situation? Lookout for my family while I'm gone? And BJ never mentions this to LE?
Maybe the VI could clarify all of this.
KJ did not say JP lived in an apartment. Which would be correct for the location given.
Unfortunately we have R saying JP lived in the apartment over the tractor dealership beside the store - which means JP had to pass where he lived to get to the J home. Ravenshoe Road is then north of the J home, the apartment is south.
Now there is question on who was driving the high school bus and supposedly saw a blue car (JP's?) in the J driveway that day. So who made a report to LE that no one has ever heard of?
---------------
Have been musing on the obit posted by Mistysues, which is not definitive as being the JP discussed here, but could be. Using the dob for the deceased and the number of children in birth order, I place daughter BF (Mrs JP) born between 1955 and 1960 - making her 25 - 30 in 1984. If she was close in age to husband JP that would make him almost a decade younger than BJ in 1984, who was 41-42.
BJ took someone almost a decade younger than him into his confidence about his situation? Lookout for my family while I'm gone? And BJ never mentions this to LE?
Maybe the VI could clarify all of this.
Makes more sense to me that JP's family lived in a townhouse in the flats considering they were a married family with children. Jmo.
The flats are actually behind (west) of the Jessop house. It was the newer subdivision. Makins book explains the location.
There is no question on who was driving the school bus and gave the stAtement. The police also took the route on the bus with a police cruiser following to see how long the bus route took. The information from the bus driver is in the police notes and outlined in Makins book.
Sorry if I was unclear - I didn't mean who was driving CJ's school bus.
I meant the high school bus that came along 15 minutes or so later - the one KJ was on when at school. That bus driver is suppose to have seen a blue car in the J driveway, but now there is confusion on who she was.
If JP's family lived south of the J's, whether beside the store or Balmoral, then no one from the JP family would still be on the bus when it got to the J driveway - elementary or high school. All of the buses were travelling north - from Q'ville elementary or from Newmarket.
The entrance to Balmoral is south of the J driveway on Leslie Street. There is only one way in and out. So where is KJ saying the JP family lived?
I meant the high school bus that came along 15 minutes or so later - the one KJ was on when at school. That bus driver is suppose to have seen a blue car in the J driveway, but now there is confusion on who she was.
If JP's family lived south of the J's, whether beside the store or Balmoral, then no one from the JP family would still be on the bus when it got to the J driveway - elementary or high school. All of the buses were travelling north - from Q'ville elementary or from Newmarket.
The entrance to Balmoral is south of the J driveway on Leslie Street. There is only one way in and out. So where is KJ saying the JP family lived?
Some of this sort of thing, the discrepancies between who said this or that and what the truth of the matter really is keep popping up. Most get worked out to some degree eventually or at least I thought they were being. R has muddied the waters a bit but mainly just in regard to Ken's suspect.
The bus driver controversy is an interesting point. If the report of the blue car came from the driver of the early or later bus, its an important point. "timing"..
from W.
I believe it has all become too much for Ken and we may have to leave it at that. Its too bad he didn't leave some of the documentation and evidence but he's had a lifetime of this already.
Facts are facts, no matter the source. We have to work with what we have. Appreciate you taking the time too Mistysues to take the walk.
Timing still seems very difficult to make it to the store and back and explanations are few. There are any number of possibilities, multiple potential scenarios involving various suspects and there are a few probabilities to work off.
Both Ken and dedpanman have gone the route of a non forced abduction. A coersion by someone known to Christine. They both lean to Christine riding her bike to the store and back.
One of the few things we know from the Jessop home was that the pink jacket that Christine's wore to school that morning, was found hanging too high for her to have placed it there herself. We have the store owner saying Christine was in at about 4 pm wearing a blue sort of sweater. Christine's remains were later found with a blue sweater. "timing"
I believe this rules out Christine walking home or stopping at the store first. It would also seem to rule out a forced abduction. I would assume that this means the perp was there at the house before Christine went to the store.
I understand the premise of the reasoning, "the perp offered to drive her to see her father in jail" but it need not be the only excuse that would have worked on her. Something like that, something that accomplishes the same goal is just as viable even though we don't know what else that could be. The drive to the jail reasoning is really only in regard Ken's suspect. I agree the premise most probable theoretically but...
If you are the perp and you have made the offer, waited around the house as Christine prepares herself, changing her coat , bringing in the mail etc.. what happens if someone, Janet or Ken or neighbor or whoever shows up in the interim? You are now stuck in an unworkable improbable story which Christine may not have seen through but anyone else would. You can't just show up for an unscheduled jail visit. Would anyone who had spent any time planning at all corner themselves like that? For JP Ken's suspect, going to get chicken food or something more normal and plausible would suffice. A stop at the store on the way..?
For any other suspect, an excuse tailored to that relationship would have to be devised. What clues are there in that realm? The recorder...? This was one of the key points that the Police seized upon in going after JPM. Is there someone else in the sphere for whom music could play a role?
totally speculative alternate example in regard Kens suspect -
Ken's father seems to have been a drinker and took Christine around with him at times. Drinking and driving in some moderation was almost normal back in those days amongst the regular imbibers. Did he stop in the back room to have a drink with the boys down at the coop when they went for chicken feed? Was there a little guitar playing and such during those visits? Did Christine wish to join in or show off her new instrument? Had some grooming been going on previous that day?
From the coat hung too high, how do the other suspects fit in the timing? W. your suspect, your scenario? There are many possibilities, narrrowing it down to probabilities is tough but maybe the best we are going to be able to do?
The bus driver controversy is an interesting point. If the report of the blue car came from the driver of the early or later bus, its an important point. "timing"..
from W.
I believe it has all become too much for Ken and we may have to leave it at that. Its too bad he didn't leave some of the documentation and evidence but he's had a lifetime of this already.
Facts are facts, no matter the source. We have to work with what we have. Appreciate you taking the time too Mistysues to take the walk.
Timing still seems very difficult to make it to the store and back and explanations are few. There are any number of possibilities, multiple potential scenarios involving various suspects and there are a few probabilities to work off.
Both Ken and dedpanman have gone the route of a non forced abduction. A coersion by someone known to Christine. They both lean to Christine riding her bike to the store and back.
One of the few things we know from the Jessop home was that the pink jacket that Christine's wore to school that morning, was found hanging too high for her to have placed it there herself. We have the store owner saying Christine was in at about 4 pm wearing a blue sort of sweater. Christine's remains were later found with a blue sweater. "timing"
I believe this rules out Christine walking home or stopping at the store first. It would also seem to rule out a forced abduction. I would assume that this means the perp was there at the house before Christine went to the store.
I understand the premise of the reasoning, "the perp offered to drive her to see her father in jail" but it need not be the only excuse that would have worked on her. Something like that, something that accomplishes the same goal is just as viable even though we don't know what else that could be. The drive to the jail reasoning is really only in regard Ken's suspect. I agree the premise most probable theoretically but...
If you are the perp and you have made the offer, waited around the house as Christine prepares herself, changing her coat , bringing in the mail etc.. what happens if someone, Janet or Ken or neighbor or whoever shows up in the interim? You are now stuck in an unworkable improbable story which Christine may not have seen through but anyone else would. You can't just show up for an unscheduled jail visit. Would anyone who had spent any time planning at all corner themselves like that? For JP Ken's suspect, going to get chicken food or something more normal and plausible would suffice. A stop at the store on the way..?
For any other suspect, an excuse tailored to that relationship would have to be devised. What clues are there in that realm? The recorder...? This was one of the key points that the Police seized upon in going after JPM. Is there someone else in the sphere for whom music could play a role?
totally speculative alternate example in regard Kens suspect -
Ken's father seems to have been a drinker and took Christine around with him at times. Drinking and driving in some moderation was almost normal back in those days amongst the regular imbibers. Did he stop in the back room to have a drink with the boys down at the coop when they went for chicken feed? Was there a little guitar playing and such during those visits? Did Christine wish to join in or show off her new instrument? Had some grooming been going on previous that day?
From the coat hung too high, how do the other suspects fit in the timing? W. your suspect, your scenario? There are many possibilities, narrrowing it down to probabilities is tough but maybe the best we are going to be able to do?
Not so. The Flats are the farms and 'flat' acreage North of the Jessop place to about Holborn Road.
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