Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #2 *killer identified*

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Posted by "rthom" on another site in response to this in the "KJessop Scenario":

Just then, another school bus rumbled by heading north on Leslie street. On board, JP’s own stepdaughters glanced out the window and saw a blue car on the Jessop’s property. The car was also spotted by the bus driver – Mrs. Gibson.

rthom wrote:

Just some clarification here. There were two schoolbuses serving both Queensville and Sharon Public schools. Depending on where you lived, you took one or the other. The drivers were Mrs. Gibson, and Ms. Fry. But note: Mrs. Gibson's bus always ran first, by a good ten minutes or more. To suggest that her bus was "another school bus" driving by at 4pm, would imply Christine had to have taken an earlier one (ie: that would have had to have been Ms. Fry's) just doesn't fly. This clear break in bus departure patterning would have been noted at the time, and I can assure you, as someone who answered one of the early phone calls that night she disappeared (and who called friends who had been on that bus) there no change in pattern. But on that note, getting some certainty on whether she really did take the bus would be interesting. The kids at that end of town often walked. When this actually occurred, that was a big question on everyone's mind. A bus driver who had a ton of loud, bratty kids to drive around may not remember exactly who she dropped off, every single day.
 
You don't remember the VI stating a number of times JP was 1 of only 4 people who knew where BJ was because he was a friend of BJ? OK.
It's not a fine point if the abductor used the ruse 'I'll take you to see your dad.' Everyone else thought he was in California, according to the VI.

You go back and forth on this point - the abductor said it and the abductor may not have said it. If it was said, then it can only be JP - according to the VI.

The store owners memory isn't malleable, but everyone else on Leslie Street that day has a malleable memory? OK.

When did the H's or Atkinson deviate from their story?

To have a neat package, JP has to have had 3 stepdaughters, a stepson and lived north of the J property in October 1984. R begs to differ on all of this.

So the bus driver and 2 female teens didn't approach KJ or anyone else in the J family with what they had reported on behalf of their missing daughter. Agreed since it hasn't been said they did.
 
So now Mrs Gibson was driving a bus of public school children and not a high school bus from Newmarket?
 
The store owners memory isn't malleable, but everyone else on Leslie Street that day has a malleable memory?

I put more stock in his recollections because he claimed to have actually interacted with Christine. He sold her gum. Spoke to her. Very different than a passing glance as she rides by.
 
To have a neat package, JP has to have had 3 stepdaughters, a stepson and lived north of the J property in October 1984. R begs to differ on all of this.

Then... maybe you should convince "R" to become a verified insider, too?
You hold his information in very high regard... but to the rest of us... Who is he? How do we know that his information is legitimate...?

With all due respect... these are the same issues that you used to have with KJessop (or still do?)... is it not?
 
The store owner claimed to have interacted with JJ as well, then changed his mind.

Anyone can make the same phone call to the coop I did - but no one has. R's interest in reading this forum or becoming a VI is unknown to me.

I don't have issues with KJ, just the information. Nasty assumption and not called for.
 
So now Mrs Gibson was driving a bus of public school children and not a high school bus from Newmarket?

I must admit that I have trouble trying to understand exactly what the poster (rthom) was talking about in regards to the drivers and the buses... but I thought it was interesting in that he (?) challenged the idea that Christine actually took the bus home.

Are we 100% certain that she took the bus home from the school?
We always took that as an absolute fact...

But, what if she walked home?
What if she left school on foot and headed north... went to the store first - recorder in hand - got her gum...? And, then home...?

I never considered that. The timeline changes, and so does the sequence of events. Can we rule this scenario out through facts and logic?

The store is .6 km north of the school... then another .7 km home. Just over 1 km in total for her one-way journey.

If Christine's mind was on visiting the store when school was out, might she have decided to just walk to the store, and then home, instead of going home, then to the store, then back home?

I don't know. Thoughts? Can we put this to rest really fast?
 
* However – I caught you in another assumption. *How can you assume that “they” had phone records unless it’s explicitly stated somewhere? *Again: be careful please.

In the Kaufman report under March 6, 1985 Interview of Ken and Janet Jessop it specifically states that the police obtained telephone records.

* While in Queensville, I hope you stood at the foot of the old Jessop driveway where it meets Leslie Street and looked south to the intersection where the corner store used to be. *I hope you stood there imagining that you were Christine Jessop, a 9-year-old girl, wanting to go there to get some gum. *I hope you imagined that you had a bicycle, and thought about your options. *Walk, or ride? * Why would you walk there when you had a working bicycle? *One that you were allowed to ride there and had ridden there many times in the past? *I wonder if you were hard-pressed to imagine a reason why you wouldn’t take your bike. *Why would you walk, when you could be there within seconds on two wheels? *

Dpanman I am assuming you don't have children but you cannot ride a bike and practice 3 blind mice. My oldest is Cj age and got her recorder for music class which they only have every Monday and I haven't had a moment of silence since. The point in your statement the bike was old news and the recorder new.

* I have sifted through the various resources and found numerous examples (posted on thread 1) of both Christine and Leslie taking their bikes to the park. *It was a well-established pattern. * It was also windy and cold that day, not fantastic weather for a bike ride. * The idea that Christine walked to the store (and back home) that day makes no sense. *And KJessop is on record here as believing the same. *She would have taken her bike. * You’ve added a bag of candy to your scenario. *Where does that come from? *The store owner claimed that Christine bought some gum. *It’s debatable that she even had her recorder at this point. *Personally, I believe her recorder was back at the house when she went to the store. *

The man who saw her talking to young boys and was informed by the police it was a young girl stated she had a bag of candy and a recorder, so did a couple and a teenage girl - Wrongful Conviction the book and the Kaufman report.

* I don’t hold much faith in any of the eye witnesses who claim to have seen her around the intersection (outside the store) that day. *I really don’t – for reasons so numerous (and previously posted) that I can’t be bothered to restate them. *

1 or 2 of them are probably wrong, I doubt all are wrong. I don't think the 15 yr old actually saw her in her driveway with her bike -Makins book I couldn't see the Jessop drive from the store when I looked.


* I always had problems with the idea that Christine went to the park to meet Leslie. *Leslie claimed she went to the park around 4:00 pm (give or take) and Christine wasn’t there. *It suggests that is where the abduction occurred – yet Christine’s bicycle was found at home. *And in my mind she would have taken her bike – so the park abduction doesn’t fly with me (sorry, Mr. Mangano). *Plus, the park is more visible and a more difficult place for an unobserved abduction. *I can’t buy it. *

The park isn't more visible or difficult if you cut through the houses on Leslie st which as stated in Makins book was not an uncommon practice. There were no fences surrounding the park. But there are a ton of trees (and yes they were there in 84)

* When KJessop suggested here that Christine never went to the park that day to meet Leslie – that made sense to me. *But where’s the proof? *Here it is: Leslie claimed she and Christine had agreed to meet in the park to play with their Cabbage Patch dolls. *But, Christine’s Cabbage Patch doll was found at home in her room after she was abducted. *This strongly suggests she never took that doll out of the house because she never intended to go to the park to meet Leslie. *It also strongly suggests that Christine was not abducted from the park – because if she was – why was the doll found at home? *(Again, sorry, Mr. Mangano.) *

Your placing a lot of confidence on a 30 year old memory of a 14 year old who according to all accounts was not anywhere around when the abduction or events leading up to the abduction was not around.


I counter suggest that she just took the recorder instead. She couldn't get a hold of Leslie on the phone and she did not tell her mom/leave a note therefore plans were in the air and she intended on checking in at home before continuing on with plans. In Makins book Leslie waited for Christine to call before going to the park suggesting the plan was to call first otherwise why bother.


* And the issue of the recorder. *Why was it e ven with Christine when she was abducted from her home? *It never really made sense – until KJessop suggested that she took it with her because she believed she was leaving with someone who was going to take her to see her father (in jail). *That works for me. *It explains the presence of the recorder. *It explains why the abduction was so fast and went completely unnoticed. *Christine went willingly. *Her abductor offered her something that she would not say no to. *

So she wouldn't have brought it to town because she had plans to bring play with her cabbage patch dolls but she would have brought it to a jail?? Possible I suppose but I'm leery of that.

She hadn't been to see her dad yet and as in Makins book was scheduled to go the Sunday the same week she disappeared. I doubt she would have run off knowing she would be going with her mom and ken and knowing her mom would be home soon. Visitation to jail is obviously monitored so this would have been easily documented

* Some might say, “Oh, but she was so excited to have her recorder because she just got it that day and wanted to take it everywhere.” *Eh. *Whatever. *

Again Im going to assume you don't have children, they really are predictably strange little human beings lol


* We’re talking about a little girl who caught dew worms by herself, had her own chickens, pet frog and a dog. *It seems like she was something of a tomboy. *Equal parts “girly-girl” and “roll-up-her-sleeves-and-get-dirty”. *There were two sides to her. *Ken saw one, her mother another. *

She was also a little girl that LOVED music. Ironically her favorite song was I’m going to live forever -Janet Jessop interview newspaper clipping globe and mail i think but i will verify *

Question for you Dpanman: in regards to timing, how did she accomplish mail, store, talking to people and home and abduction in 25mins?
 
I must admit that I have trouble trying to understand exactly what the poster (rthom) was talking about in regards to the drivers and the buses... but I thought it was interesting in that he (?) challenged the idea that Christine actually took the bus home.

Are we 100% certain that she took the bus home from the school?
We always took that as an absolute fact...

But, what if she walked home?
What if she left school on foot and headed north... went to the store first - recorder in hand - got her gum...? And, then home...?

I never considered that. The timeline changes, and so does the sequence of events. Can we rule this scenario out through facts and logic?

The store is .6 km north of the school... then another .7 km home. Just over 1 km in total for her one-way journey.

If Christine's mind was on visiting the store when school was out, might she have decided to just walk to the store, and then home, instead of going home, then to the store, then back home?

I don't know. Thoughts? Can we put this to rest really fast?

She was definitely on the bus. The officers spoke to the school officials for confirmation. Source: Makin and Kaufman inquiry -officers notes
 
Did KJ ever return to school? Wondering why the bus driver and the 2 teen girls never mentioned to KJ that they made a report to YRP about a blue car in the driveway that day.

Seems like something they would mention - trying to be helpful etc.

I am not sure if Kj returned to the school. Shortly after he went to stay with people. Where he went is up for debate because he says Janets Dad but Makins book says Al and Bills house.
 
What time would CJ get home if she walked and stopped at the store?

I would suggest over an hour. It is over 1km, she was pretty tiny, small stride, would have been cold and windy so she would have probably been walking fast but I'm betting after 4:30. Regardless it was confirmed that she was on the bus.
 
I must admit that I have trouble trying to understand exactly what the poster (rthom) was talking about in regards to the drivers and the buses... but I thought it was interesting in that he (?) challenged the idea that Christine actually took the bus home.

My take from the other forum (which Ive read, ps you've got great organization of these facts, it is very helpful.) is that he was trying to express that this was a sighting that could be relied on.
 
The store owner claimed to have interacted with JJ as well, then changed his mind.

Anyone can make the same phone call to the coop I did - but no one has. R's interest in reading this forum or becoming a VI is unknown to me.

I don't have issues with KJ, just the information. Nasty assumption and not called for.

The store owner didnt change is mind, he stated Janet must have confused the day with another because she was not in his store to buy cigarettes as she reported to the police.
 
But, what if she walked home?
What if she left school on foot and headed north... went to the store first - recorder in hand - got her gum...? And, then home...?

Food for thought....Would she have had money to stop without going home first? Leslie told investigators CJ had over a dollar to spend (don't remember the exact amount but it was under 2$ and over 1$ - interview with Leslie by officer between the disappearance and before the search was called off on Saturday), no indication if that was on her person at school though. All the books -RR, Wrongful Conviction, and Guilty of being weird states she paid for the gum with a nickle that she got from a change dish at her home....but Makins book also covers this interview.
 
On a side note anyone interested in reading these books:
Wrongful Conviction - FANTASTIC, details are great, no speculation.
Redrum - Very Good, details are great, based on court records, transcripts police notes, actual conversations etc.
Guilty of being weird - don't waste your time or money. Speculative, very condensed details do not match KR or RR even though Kirk Makin did the forward, a lot of the speculative information was taken from Unsolved Canada.
 
The store owner mentioned CJ had her school bag and recorder with her?

Actually no. No mention of recorder, backpack or bicycle by the Store owner. Witnesses who mentioned seeing her with recorder (no backpack) all saw her outside the store in the intersection (with exception of the 15y girl who saw her in the intersection/coming out of the store and apparently walking her bike up her driveway)
 
The store owner claimed to have interacted with JJ as well, then changed his mind.

Anyone can make the same phone call to the coop I did - but no one has. R's interest in reading this forum or becoming a VI is unknown to me.

I don't have issues with KJ, just the information. Nasty assumption and not called for.

Who is R or can someone direct me to which post I can follow up for this? Search isn't helping with search terms of "R".
 
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