GUILTY Canada - Diane Werendowicz, 23, raped & murdered, Hamilton, Ont, June 1981

[deugirtni]

DW and CV had been at odds with each other at CV's own admission.
DW had old marks or scars - how about from physical abuse by CV?

Are you talking about the scar which was (not) noted on the autopsy report? ie above her pelvic area? if so, that doesn't seem like an abuse type of scar. when I read that, I had wondered if DW had perhaps had a historical surgery of some kind. ?

Perhaps physical abuse is why they had a falling out and needed distance. In my opinion, someone who needs to cool off has gotten too hot headed.

i took the cooling off period to mean... cooling off from their hot, romantic relationship.. as opposed to a cooling off due to hot-headedness and potential abuse. jmo

 

[deugirtni]

A whole pile of stuff is going through my head..

- isn't is possible with today's technologies, to compare that recorded phonecall with RB's voice to see the percentage possibility that the caller was him?

- the defence seems to be making a number of points, of course,.. one of which seems to be that it was NOT only the killer who knew that DW had been strangled with her purse strap, but rather, quite a few people - the people who saw her after her body had been found, while she was on the plastic sheet.. the people who transported her.. the police.. the people at the morgue.. and that all of those people have people who they could have potentially told, and that is how rumors get started, right? Okay, so if the point is being made that many could have known that, how did RB come to know that, if it was RB who was the caller, if he wasn't the killer?

- if a guy rapes and kills someone.. does he call the cops and tell them that the victim was 'raped'? what i'm getting at.. is.. does a rapist say 'rape'? just curious as to whether a rapist thinks of the act as 'rape'?

- i wonder if police have done any kind of criminal profiling in this case or on RB?

- statistically.. how often does it happen where a rapist rapes someone and kills her or almost kills her, and then puts her jeans back on? just curious.. doesn't seem to make sense (to me at least)... why take the time.. why not just get the beejeezuz out of there as fast as possible before you're seen by someone/anyone? Just because you're in a ravine after midnight doesn't mean there aren't, or can't be, others also lurking about, or just about to arrive there and soon to be lurking about.. drinking, having sex, whatever.. ??

- it seems unfair to me that it has been reported that police suspect that RB is the 'ravine rapist' when he hasn't been charged and hasn't ever had a chance to defend himself on those allegations, but yet it puts a perception out there in the community that he is guilty of multiple rapes in the area over a span of years.

- i was reading about some of the things that happened in the case with the other woman who RB was charged with attempting to murder. it seems there were some crappy things that happened with evidence and such. it seems like perhaps the media and the victim and police wanted the public to think that RB was guilty of that crime also, but if one reads about the case, it seems his appearance at the time didn't even match the description of the perp. http://caselaw.canada.globe24h.com/...008/04/15/r-v-badgerow-2008-15895-on-sc.shtml

 

[deugirtni]

... I know we're not supposed to suspect those not on trial, but the boyfriend thing is bugging me. My suggestion is LE get a current DNA sample from CV if they haven't already, not necessarily for this case, but other unsolved cases. I doubt an old sample from 1981 is trustworthy enough. ....

The boyfriend's DNA was obtained in 1998. i'm not sure how that works.. if someone gives a DNA sample, can it only be used to compare against the one case of interest? or is it entered into some big DNA database that would show any potential matches to DNA obtained from unsolved cases?

While he was questioned by police in 1981, he would not hear from them until 1998, the year Badgerow was arrested and forensic investigations had advanced. At that time he provided a DNA sample to police.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/badgerow-trial-testimony-continues-1.3784822

 

[Claroon]

A whole pile of stuff is going through my head..

- isn't is possible with today's technologies, to compare that recorded phonecall with RB's voice to see the percentage possibility that the caller was him?
l[/URL]

Geesh, are you my husband? lol That's what my husband said last night. I was hoping we could hear it and then I'd play back a video recording of him at his previous trial that reporters recorded to compare it.

 

[Claroon]

Originally Posted by deugirtni
the defence seems to be making a number of points, of course,.. one of which seems to be that it was NOT only the killer who knew that DW had been strangled with her purse strap, but rather, quite a few people - the people who saw her after her body had been found, while she was on the plastic sheet.. the people who transported her.. the police.. the people at the morgue.. and that all of those people have people who they could have potentially told, and that is how rumors get started, right? Okay, so if the point is being made that many could have known that, how did RB come to know that, if it was RB who was the caller, if he wasn't the killer?

My thoughts exactly. In previous trials, not every witness positive ID'd him, but some did especially using the word "crick" instead of "creek."

Then again, as to the number of people you mention, they wouldn't know she was raped until after the autopsy to find semen, right?

The autopsy appears to have been the next day. Cole was a police officer. A police officer wouldn't call police

So who would call police? Who would think it was helpful?

Susan Clairmont Tweet Sunday, June 21, 1981, Cole was also on duty. He was at Diane's autopsy as an observer.

 

[Claroon]

A whole pile of stuff is going through my head..


- if a guy rapes and kills someone.. does he call the cops and tell them that the victim was 'raped'? what i'm getting at.. is.. does a rapist say 'rape'? just curious as to whether a rapist thinks of the act as 'rape'?

- i wonder if police have done any kind of criminal profiling in this case or on RB?

. http://caselaw.canada.globe24h.com/...008/04/15/r-v-badgerow-2008-15895-on-sc.shtml

That is quite a topic. I googled it and found a rape forum where a guy says he "hooked up" with a girl who got naked with him, but she said "no." He thinks maybe she just wanted hand or oral, but he was so horney that while she clamped her legs together, he pushed through with no condom. He says his d*** was doing the thinking. He didn't see it as rape at the time, but now feels horrible about it.

The guy using the term "hooked up" makes me think they weren't dating so random as in the RB case. The waters can get muddy about how to get a guy to draw the line and when the term rape can be applied. Kind of hard to say "no" after getting naked. I guess the no needs to be spelled out. The guy in my scenario would not have called it rape until now that he's an adult and sees the issue differently.

Then there are violent rapist we've all heard about. If it actually occurred at the ravine and not in his car, it is a violent rape. IMO

So would RB use the term rape? Not if it was consensual. Yes, if it was violent IMO

 

[Claroon]

Are you talking about the scar which was (not) noted on the autopsy report? ie above her pelvic area? if so, that doesn't seem like an abuse type of scar. when I read that, I had wondered if DW had perhaps had a historical surgery of some kind. ?



i took the cooling off period to mean... cooling off from their hot, romantic relationship.. as opposed to a cooling off due to hot-headedness and potential abuse. jmo

Yes I agree with a surgical scar, but there were others:

Susan Clairmont Tweets October 4, 2016

Fox passing to jurors a photo of a scar and a bruise on Diane's body. Rest of the court is not seeing the photo.

Jury is not being shown that photo...Also scar on her thigh, court hears.

Fox asks if doctor saw a description of a scar. Fernandes says he did not.

Again seeing Diane's autopsy photos. Specifically, a blue mark on her thigh. Bruise or dye from blue jeans? #Werendowicz #Badgerow

Silverstein suggests it isn't in report because it's not relevant. Fernandes says he doesn't know why Foster didn't include it in report.

That these were not relevant makes me think they believe they are older marks/scars except for the blue one which may be jean dye or if from a hit as purple is a colour of a recent hit.

The scar on her cheek is described as "purple."

SC tweet Oct. 4, 2016 Now a different autopsy photo of Diane's face. Faint purple mark on left cheek and left upper eyelid and lower eyelid.

This web page describes purple bruising as being over 1-3 days. Question is when was this photo taken? Is it from next day or several days?

"Purple Bruises
Typically, over one to three days (depending in the severity of your injury), a bruise becomes more intensely purple and may even appear black. This occurs as red blood cells break down and iron is released into the injured area.
Read more at http://www.symptomfind.com/health/changing-colors-bruises-and-what-they-mean/#7E7eYbIW2UxGbBwH.99

 

[dotr]

My thoughts exactly. In previous trials, not every witness positive ID'd him, but some did especially using the word "crick" instead of "creek." Then again, as to the number of people you mention, they wouldn't know she was raped until after the autopsy to find semen, right? The autopsy appears to have been the next day. Cole was a police officer. A police officer wouldn't call police So who would call police? Who would think it was helpful?

rbbm. No specific reason for thinking this, but can imagine a homeless type person, drinker,ect. somebody on the outskirts of society or a migrant, - witnessed the crime, perhaps even pulling the victim's jeans back up. Maybe a person who had recently become religious and wanted to do the "right thing" and help LE, but not be involved. speculation.

 

[Claroon]

- it seems unfair to me that it has been reported that police suspect that RB is the 'ravine rapist' when he hasn't been charged and hasn't ever had a chance to defend himself on those allegations, but yet it puts a perception out there in the community that he is guilty of multiple rapes in the area over a span of years.

- i was reading about some of the things that happened in the case with the other woman who RB was charged with attempting to murder. it seems there were some crappy things that happened with evidence and such. it seems like perhaps the media and the victim and police wanted the public to think that RB was guilty of that crime also, but if one reads about the case, it seems his appearance at the time didn't even match the description of the perp. http://caselaw.canada.globe24h.com/...008/04/15/r-v-badgerow-2008-15895-on-sc.shtml

Interesting document, thanks for posting it http://caselaw.canada.globe24h.com/...008/04/15/r-v-badgerow-2008-15895-on-sc.shtml.

Interesting about the hair perm. I recall guys starting to do that back then. Yuck. Odd both that victim's husband and RB worked at Dofasco. Odd she said it happened at 11:13 and he punched into Dofasco at 11:24, but police tried to say the attack occurred at 11:00. Like you say, wanting to make RB fit into the scenario.

That being said he admitted to sex with DW June 20, 1981, DNA found, and he was supposedly dating and possibly enaged to TH whom he married April 17, 1982? Cheater. Not so innocent.

 

[Claroon]

rbbm. No specific reason for thinking this, but can imagine a homeless type person, drinker,ect. somebody on the outskirts of society or a migrant, - witnessed the crime, perhaps even pulling the victim's jeans back up. Maybe a person who had recently become religious and wanted to do the "right thing" and help LE, but not be involved. speculation.

The hole in your idea is the call was made from the Dofasco parking lot.

I've thought that RB (or other murderer) might have told someone at work the story. RB apparently was at Dofasco when the call was made. I just can understand if RB made the call why he did it except relief of conscience or desire to make the news.

 

[dotr]

Interesting document, thanks for posting it http://caselaw.canada.globe24h.com/...008/04/15/r-v-badgerow-2008-15895-on-sc.shtml.

Interesting about the hair perm. I recall guys starting to do that back then. Yuck. Odd both that victim's husband and RB worked at Dofasco. Odd she said it happened at 11:13 and he punched into Dofasco at 11:24, but police tried to say the attack occurred at 11:00. Like you say, wanting to make RB fit into the scenario.

That being said he admitted to sex with DW June 20, 1981, DNA found, and he was supposedly dating and possibly enaged to TH whom he married April 17, 1982? Cheater. Not so innocent.

rbbm.
A cheater is also a liar,imo.
speculation.

 

[deugirtni]

Yes I agree with a surgical scar, but there were others:

That these were not relevant makes me think they believe they are older marks/scars except for the blue one which may be jean dye or if from a hit as purple is a colour of a recent hit.

The scar on her cheek is described as "purple."

This web page describes purple bruising as being over 1-3 days. Question is when was this photo taken? Is it from next day or several days?

"Purple Bruises
Typically, over one to three days (depending in the severity of your injury), a bruise becomes more intensely purple and may even appear black. This occurs as red blood cells break down and iron is released into the injured area.
Read more at http://www.symptomfind.com/health/changing-colors-bruises-and-what-they-mean/#7E7eYbIW2UxGbBwH.99

The thing on her cheek was described as a 'mark', wasn't it, as opposed to a bruise? I believe there is a difference in bruising between a live person and a dead person. The decomposing of the body begins fairly quickly and i would think it would be observable in DW's face since she was face down with a tire holding her head down into the 'crick'... pooling of the blood, etc.? Could that explain the one(s) on her cheek/eyelid?

 

[deugirtni]

Geesh, are you my husband? lol That's what my husband said last night. I was hoping we could hear it and then I'd play back a video recording of him at his previous trial that reporters recorded to compare it.

On CHCH news last evening, it did play at least portions of the recording. haven't looked, but perhaps it is available on CH's website?

 

[deugirtni]

My thoughts exactly. In previous trials, not every witness positive ID'd him, but some did especially using the word "crick" instead of "creek."

Then again, as to the number of people you mention, they wouldn't know she was raped until after the autopsy to find semen, right?

The autopsy appears to have been the next day. Cole was a police officer. A police officer wouldn't call police

So who would call police? Who would think it was helpful?

1. having lived in Hamilton for a few years in my adulthood, i think a LOT of people referred to creek as 'crick', so i feel that is quite meaningless in the scheme of things in this case

2. i think (but not sure) it was in the news that DW was found partially clothed.. if so, people would perhaps assume that she had been raped/sexually assaulted? are there any articles available from the time?

3. perhaps someone who had seen her body at the scene (sounds like there were a few).. or someone who had been told by someone at the scene.. and perhaps he told someone and that someone, like say perhaps his wife, told him he should call police and tell them? but... he would know that police would obviously already know these things.. so... for it to have been anyone except the killer himself wouldn't make sense at all, would it?? the things said on the recording were all things the officers would already know. So if that is the case and the caller was the killer, then what was the purpose of the call.. the thrill of the chase? And if so.. it would have been good for a profile to have been done on the killer.. and one done on RB.. to see if they matched? And.. if 'they' 'think' that RB is the 'ravine rapist', was that something that was common in all of *those* rapes? Was there any other indication that RB liked to taunt the police?

 

[deugirtni]

Interesting document, thanks for posting it http://caselaw.canada.globe24h.com/...008/04/15/r-v-badgerow-2008-15895-on-sc.shtml.

Interesting about the hair perm. I recall guys starting to do that back then. Yuck. Odd both that victim's husband and RB worked at Dofasco. Odd she said it happened at 11:13 and he punched into Dofasco at 11:24, but police tried to say the attack occurred at 11:00. Like you say, wanting to make RB fit into the scenario.

That being said he admitted to sex with DW June 20, 1981, DNA found, and he was supposedly dating and possibly enaged to TH whom he married April 17, 1982? Cheater. Not so innocent.

i haven't finished reading that document.. but wasn't it also saying that time wasn't even taken into consideration for the time it would take also to park the car in the Dofasco lot and walk to the punchclock from there? And really? The guy watches the news at his fiance's house (yes he was said to have been engaged to TH at that time) with his fiance and her parents, and then on his way to WORK immediately following, where he had to be there by a specific time, it just doesn't add up. the victim identified a person who looked similar to how RB looked a few years before it happened. She hadn't seen him in between. Also there is info about the perp wearing a black t-shirt, but RB was said to have been wearing a white t-shirt.

RB must have been engaged to TH also when DW was killed because the attack on the other woman was said to have occurred only 5 weeks later. Lots of people cheat, but doesn't make them murderers?

 

[deugirtni]

That is quite a topic. I googled it and found a rape forum where a guy says he "hooked up" with a girl who got naked with him, but she said "no." He thinks maybe she just wanted hand or oral, but he was so horney that while she clamped her legs together, he pushed through with no condom. He says his d*** was doing the thinking. He didn't see it as rape at the time, but now feels horrible about it.

The guy using the term "hooked up" makes me think they weren't dating so random as in the RB case. The waters can get muddy about how to get a guy to draw the line and when the term rape can be applied. Kind of hard to say "no" after getting naked. I guess the no needs to be spelled out. The guy in my scenario would not have called it rape until now that he's an adult and sees the issue differently.

Then there are violent rapist we've all heard about. If it actually occurred at the ravine and not in his car, it is a violent rape. IMO

So would RB use the term rape? Not if it was consensual. Yes, if it was violent IMO

my point is that I'm just wondering if rapists think of themselves as committing 'rape'. do they think of it that way in their minds? if they described themselves and their actions, is that how they see themselves? i have no idea about that topic... but it just strikes me weird that if it was the rapist/killer himself who had made that call, would he have said that she was 'raped'? (or is it likely/unlikely that another word/term would have been substituted?)

 

[deugirtni]

i haven't heard any mention of the autopsy finding proof of marijuana use just before DW was killed. Was this not possible back then?

 

[dotr]

On CHCH news last evening, it did play at least portions of the recording. haven't looked, but perhaps it is available on CH's website?

A bit of the phone call in video segment..
http://www.chch.com/badgerow-trial-day-6/

 

[Claroon]

1. having lived in Hamilton for a few years in my adulthood, i think a LOT of people referred to creek as 'crick', so i feel that is quite meaningless in the scheme of things in this case

2. i think (but not sure) it was in the news that DW was found partially clothed.. if so, people would perhaps assume that she had been raped/sexually assaulted? are there any articles available from the time?

3. perhaps someone who had seen her body at the scene (sounds like there were a few).. or someone who had been told by someone at the scene.. and perhaps he told someone and that someone, like say perhaps his wife, told him he should call police and tell them? but... he would know that police would obviously already know these things.. so... for it to have been anyone except the killer himself wouldn't make sense at all, would it?? the things said on the recording were all things the officers would already know. So if that is the case and the caller was the killer, then what was the purpose of the call.. the thrill of the chase? And if so.. it would have been good for a profile to have been done on the killer.. and one done on RB.. to see if they matched? And.. if 'they' 'think' that RB is the 'ravine rapist', was that something that was common in all of *those* rapes? Was there any other indication that RB liked to taunt the police?

Here is one audio/video http://www.chch.com/badgerow-trial-day-6/[URL="

Here is the older https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3xjXZrify0


Older video [video]https://youtu.be/s3xjXZrify0[/video]

The tone sounds simliar to me. That he joins his sentences with "and" matches especially the one time he extends the aaaaannnnnddd.

 

[Claroon]

I keep thinking about what you said, deugirtni, about putting the jeans back on. Jeans are hard enough to put on ourselves, let along put on someone else. Unless she was ordered to put them on? does seem weird. Do other rapists re-dress their victim?