GUILTY Canada - Diane Werendowicz, 23, raped & murdered, Hamilton, Ont, June 1981

[Claroon]

I'm thinking regarding the other case where he was identified. Put black hair on CV (left) and I bet he looks very similar to RB. Lots of dudes wore their hair & mustache like that in that era.

credit https://twitter.com/search?q=#Badgerow&src=typd
and
Google images https://www.google.ca/search?q=Baba...+photo+from+high+school&imgrc=muIZXGcVT56qNM:

 

[deugirtni]

I'm thinking regarding the other case where he was identified. Put black hair on CV (left) and I bet he looks very similar to RB. Lots of dudes wore their hair & mustache like that in that era.

credit https://twitter.com/search?q=#Badgerow&src=typd
and
Google images https://www.google.ca/search?q=Baba...+photo+from+high+school&imgrc=muIZXGcVT56qNM:

Now that you mention.. they do look similar ish, don't they?

 

[Claroon]

Speculating--wondering if RB's brother had been told about it and might have dropped him off at Dofasco and their voices sound similar? (From photos, brother looks the part sorry to say)

 

[Claroon]

I think there was a trial half a day today but no report has tweets from what I can find.

 

[deugirtni]

I keep thinking about what you said, deugirtni, about putting the jeans back on. Jeans are hard enough to put on ourselves, let along put on someone else. Unless she was ordered to put them on? does seem weird. Do other rapists re-dress their victim?

I have no idea? It would be interesting to know more about the victims of the 'ravine rapist'? If DW's panties were still ON her, along with her jeans, then i would have thought the 'rapist' (if there was one) just pulled down her pants.. but from the panties being found away from her body, the jeans would obviously have had to have come off completely for that to happen.. and yet they were all the way back on, and buttoned, but unzipped. Very curious to me too.

 

[deugirtni]

I think there was a trial half a day today but no report has tweets from what I can find.

What leads you to believe there was half a day trial today? I got the impression from CHCH yesterday that court wouldn't be in session until next Thursday?

 

[deugirtni]

Here is one audio/video http://www.chch.com/badgerow-trial-day-6/

Older video [video]https://youtu.be/s3xjXZrify0[/video]

The tone sounds simliar to me. That he joins his sentences with "and" matches especially the one time he extends the aaaaannnnnddd.

Thank you SO much for finding that! Wow. The two don't sound the same to me at all.
i)RB sounds somewhat nasal-ish
ii)RB seems quieter-toned
iii)RB seems somewhat gravelly
iv)RB sounds breathy
v)911 caller speaks very quickly, imho
vi)911 caller has a sense of confidence about him, imho
vii)911 caller speaks clearly, not raspy/gravelly at all
viii)911 caller says 'uh' often (considering the length of the phonecall)

That is another point... on the news and in the news right now, they are making it sound (listen to Lisa Hepfner) like the 911 caller's voice was identified as being RB... however, from what I have read, the identification of RB as the caller was split down the middle as far as those closest to him thinking it sounded like him, but yet the news doesn't seem to be mentioning that other half. i would almost laugh if it wasn't such serious $h!t!!!!

 

[Claroon]

What leads you to believe there was half a day trial today? I got the impression from CHCH yesterday that court wouldn't be in session until next Thursday?

Susan Clairmont was asked on Twitter if the trial was today and she said yes but she wouldn't be there.

 

[Claroon]

Thank you SO much for finding that! Wow. The two don't sound the same to me at all.
i)RB sounds somewhat nasal-ish
ii)RB seems quieter-toned
iii)RB seems somewhat gravelly
iv)RB sounds breathy
v)911 caller speaks very quickly, imho
vi)911 caller has a sense of confidence about him, imho
vii)911 caller speaks clearly, not raspy/gravelly at all
viii)911 caller says 'uh' often (considering the length of the phonecall)

That is another point... on the news and in the news right now, they are making it sound (listen to Lisa Hepfner) like the 911 caller's voice was identified as being RB... however, from what I have read, the identification of RB as the caller was split down the middle as far as those closest to him thinking it sounded like him, but yet the news doesn't seem to be mentioning that other half. i would almost laugh if it wasn't such serious $h!t!!!!

I thought they sounded similar in their phrasing.

Quality of recording makes a diff.

In the RB video he clearly seemed rehearsed.

Yes, says "uh" but I noticed RB said that too. That and "and" ...

 

[Claroon]

From a page I have no subscription to, this is all I could pull from it

"Police in southwestern Ontario charged a 40-year-old Hamilton steelworker with rape and murder in the 1981 death of nursing aide Diane Werendowicz. Although Robert Badgerow faces charges only in that case and one other 1981 attack, police said they had no doubt he was the "ravine rapist," responsible for 10 violent sexual assaults around Hamilton between 1980 and 1997, many of them in a local park ravine. …" https://business.highbeam.com/4341/article-1G1-53376028/ravine-rapist-arrest

My question is, Why hasn't he been charged then? If there is no charge, isn't this just innuendo that he is attached to the case?

That girl that was attacked with a screwdriver positively IDing RB was interesting, but if you read the legal document, you find out she said the assailant had straight black hair. RB had gotten a perm prior to the incident. His hair was curly.

 

[Claroon]

rbbm.
A cheater is also a liar,imo.
speculation.

Let's just say that would also apply to CV since CV admitted to seeing other people too. He makes it sound like DW knew about it and was okay with it but all we have is his word. If cheater=liar, then maybe he didn't work until 1:30 and go out with friends right after.

So much of this can't be checked out now since it's too old.

 

[deugirtni]

I thought they sounded similar in their phrasing.

Quality of recording makes a diff.

In the RB video he clearly seemed rehearsed.

Yes, says "uh" but I noticed RB said that too. That and "and" ...

that little clip of the recording came on the 6pm news (CHCH) again tonight.. and a couple of things stood out.. one is that the caller stated DW's height as being 5'11". If RB was both the perp, and the caller, would his guess have been more accurate? I don't think 5'11" women are all that common, and would definitely stand out as being that tall, but DW was only 5'9" according to the autopsy report. That leads me to think the caller wasn't actually with her in person, but had perhaps been told (by the killer, or second/third hand?) that she was very tall, or perhaps 'taller than you', etc.

"(Diane was 5-foot-9. The caller put her at 5-foot-11.)" : http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2198784-trying-to-establish-a-connection/

"Diane was 5 foot nine, 132 pounds. #Badgerow" : Susan Clairmont Tweets from Kitchener Courthouse October 4, 2016 https://twitter.com/susanclairmont

The other thing was that when the police asked the caller if he had anything else, he said he 'didn't want to get involved'. If a killer is taunting the police by making a call like that (if killer, then what other purpose would the call have had?), it seems an unlikely thing thing to say, when asked if he had anything else.

I am feeling now like the caller wasn't the killer, but someone who had heard from perhaps the killer, or second/thirdhand, what had occurred, but not in every detail, ie the caller may have been told DW was strangled with her purse strap, but not have realized the strap of the purse was still around the victim's neck and was therefore easy for police to determine that's what she'd been strangled with; the victim was not wearing the sweater which was reported to have been pink, but the caller said red or orange top overtop of the white top; the height was said to be 2" taller than the victim was, so could the caller have just been told that the woman was very tall and he then guessed at the height; etc. The caller may have thought he was giving real, perhaps helpful, clues, but didn't want to out the killer (perhaps because he knew who it was), or have to testify. jmo

 

[deugirtni]

From a page I have no subscription to, this is all I could pull from it

"Police in southwestern Ontario charged a 40-year-old Hamilton steelworker with rape and murder in the 1981 death of nursing aide Diane Werendowicz. Although Robert Badgerow faces charges only in that case and one other 1981 attack, police said they had no doubt he was the "ravine rapist," responsible for 10 violent sexual assaults around Hamilton between 1980 and 1997, many of them in a local park ravine. …" https://business.highbeam.com/4341/article-1G1-53376028/ravine-rapist-arrest

My question is, Why hasn't he been charged then? If there is no charge, isn't this just innuendo that he is attached to the case?

That girl that was attacked with a screwdriver positively IDing RB was interesting, but if you read the legal document, you find out she said the assailant had straight black hair. RB had gotten a perm prior to the incident. His hair was curly.

That girl thought she recognized her attacker from highschool, and asked for her yearbook to be brought to her.. from which she id'd RB... but the problem was that the yearbook photo was taken x many years in the past, and the perp's description no longer matched the photo in the yearbook. In addition to his hair being permed and not straight, as described, it was also shorter.. I can't remember if he still had a moustache (sp?).. and what he was said to have been wearing didn't match with what he wore, etc. Someone wearing what the perp was said to be wearing and someone matching the description given by the victim was actually seen by a witness, who also described the perp as having shoulder length hair, which RB did not have at the time of the attack. The victim also failed to notice a facial scar that was obvious on RB's face at the time, even though she told officers she had a clear view of his face due to lighting in the area at the time. Also, there were issues with the timing.. RB had an alibi up until 11:05pm and punched in at work at 11:24pm. He didn't have enough time to have committed that attack between the two times. When police were testing out the timing possibilities, I believe they failed to account for the time it would take to park in the employee lot and walk to the punch clock, in addition to other irregularities. RB wasn't charged in the Robertson attack until the same time when he was charged with the DW murder because he was excluded as the perp at the time when the attack occurred, but police decided to charge him in that attack when they found his DNA matched what was found in DW. The judge stopped the Robertson trial 9 days into it.. but yet it is still announced in msm that RB is Robertson's attacker as well, according to the victim.

i have no idea how things can continue to be published naming RB as the suspect the Robertson crime and the 'ravine rapist' crimes (for which i am coming up pretty much empty handed as far as finding info on).

 

[deugirtni]

Let's just say that would also apply to CV since CV admitted to seeing other people too. He makes it sound like DW knew about it and was okay with it but all we have is his word. If cheater=liar, then maybe he didn't work until 1:30 and go out with friends right after.

So much of this can't be checked out now since it's too old.

i wonder if police even bothered to scrutinize the boyfriend as a potential perp?

 

[Claroon]

that little clip of the recording came on the 6pm news (CHCH) again tonight.. and a couple of things stood out.. one is that the caller stated DW's height as being 5'11". If RB was both the perp, and the caller, would his guess have been more accurate? I don't think 5'11" women are all that common, and would definitely stand out as being that tall, but DW was only 5'9" according to the autopsy report. That leads me to think the caller wasn't actually with her in person, but had perhaps been told (by the killer, or second/third hand?) that she was very tall, or perhaps 'taller than you', etc.

"(Diane was 5-foot-9. The caller put her at 5-foot-11.)" : http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2198784-trying-to-establish-a-connection/

"Diane was 5 foot nine, 132 pounds. #Badgerow" : Susan Clairmont Tweets from Kitchener Courthouse October 4, 2016 https://twitter.com/susanclairmont

The other thing was that when the police asked the caller if he had anything else, he said he 'didn't want to get involved'. If a killer is taunting the police by making a call like that (if killer, then what other purpose would the call have had?), it seems an unlikely thing thing to say, when asked if he had anything else.

I am feeling now like the caller wasn't the killer, but someone who had heard from perhaps the killer, or second/thirdhand, what had occurred, but not in every detail, ie the caller may have been told DW was strangled with her purse strap, but not have realized the strap of the purse was still around the victim's neck and was therefore easy for police to determine that's what she'd been strangled with; the victim was not wearing the sweater which was reported to have been pink, but the caller said red or orange top overtop of the white top; the height was said to be 2" taller than the victim was, so could the caller have just been told that the woman was very tall and he then guessed at the height; etc. The caller may have thought he was giving real, perhaps helpful, clues, but didn't want to out the killer (perhaps because he knew who it was), or have to testify. jmo

Excellent points!

As to the location of the call, I've been thinking that it is highly likely that bar was frequented by plenty of Dofasco workers who probably knew each other or at least had interaction.Since DW and CV frequented the bar, chances are they knew a lot of Dofasco workers too. Former Stoney Creek resident Doug Shaw knew both DW and RB http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2225147-witness-places-badgerow-and-victim-at-same-bar/
So if many knew each other, chances are CV knew Dofasco workers too. Anyhow, just saying word could have gotten around.

Even Debbie Robertson's boyfriend worked there--beside RB apparently. (I hate that the Spec wants me to get a subscription to read even old articles, if I was getting paid for sleuthing I might subscribe, but I'm not so can't afford it ). I didn't catch Debbie's fiance's first name, last name Gillespie.
I like your point Deugirtini that the caller 'thought" he was being helpful.

Right now, I'm thinking if RB didn't kill her by the ravine, the only purpose for her murder would be a jealous SOB who may have seen her leave RB's truck, followed her and let her have it. There was no second sexual assault.

After writing the above, however, I pondered, if she left RB angry, she would have dressed herself and he 'could' have followed her and still murdered her. Just thinking. (speculation)

 

[Claroon]

That girl thought she recognized her attacker from highschool, and asked for her yearbook to be brought to her.. from which she id'd RB... but the problem was that the yearbook photo was taken x many years in the past, and the perp's description no longer matched the photo in the yearbook. In addition to his hair being permed and not straight, as described, it was also shorter.. I can't remember if he still had a moustache (sp?).. and what he was said to have been wearing didn't match with what he wore, etc. Someone wearing what the perp was said to be wearing and someone matching the description given by the victim was actually seen by a witness, who also described the perp as having shoulder length hair, which RB did not have at the time of the attack. The victim also failed to notice a facial scar that was obvious on RB's face at the time, even though she told officers she had a clear view of his face due to lighting in the area at the time. Also, there were issues with the timing.. RB had an alibi up until 11:05pm and punched in at work at 11:24pm. He didn't have enough time to have committed that attack between the two times. When police were testing out the timing possibilities, I believe they failed to account for the time it would take to park in the employee lot and walk to the punch clock, in addition to other irregularities. RB wasn't charged in the Robertson attack until the same time when he was charged with the DW murder because he was excluded as the perp at the time when the attack occurred, but police decided to charge him in that attack when they found his DNA matched what was found in DW. The judge stopped the Robertson trial 9 days into it.. but yet it is still announced in msm that RB is Robertson's attacker as well, according to the victim.

i have no idea how things can continue to be published naming RB as the suspect the Robertson crime and the 'ravine rapist' crimes (for which i am coming up pretty much empty handed as far as finding info on).

Yes, we know this from legal documents! So why msm alludes to him being DR's attacker is just incorrect reporting.

It seems to me DR says she resorted to hypnotism to try to remember details. That tells me some memories were skewed.

Yes the only think causing the police to tell her she was right was the DNA and she apparently cried when they went back to her in '98 and told her. But again, isn't that disregarding what the judge decided in her trial?

 

[Claroon]

i wonder if police even bothered to scrutinize the boyfriend as a potential perp?

A few articles report there was "shoddy" police work. I read one of the officer assigned was brand new. What would he know?

 

[Claroon]

Regarding the phone call, I've been researching profiler info and this is called

Post-Offense Behavior: Is the perpetrator leaving messages, trying to interact or taunt the investigators?s the murderer trying to inject himself into the investigation by reacting to media reports or contacting investigators?

(This is in several articles, just Google Post-Offense Behaviour)

From this http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-7991.html ...

"So who needs to insert themselves in an investigation? Killers who obsess over control, killers who have no other way of keeping track of how close the cops are getting, killers who need the ego boost of watching the cops run in circles, killers who need to be noticed and approved by law enforcement...And there are different levels of participation. Some insert themselves into an investigation by just hanging out in a cop bar listening to conversations. Low risk, low visibility, pretty good information. And some insert themselves by trying to be a "witness", actively pursuing police information. "

 

[Claroon]

[/B]
The boyfriend's DNA was obtained in 1998. i'm not sure how that works.. if someone gives a DNA sample, can it only be used to compare against the one case of interest? or is it entered into some big DNA database that would show any potential matches to DNA obtained from unsolved cases?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/badgerow-trial-testimony-continues-1.3784822

I was just reading a non-related US story where they did test for DNA evidence BUT, they did not enter it into the national DNA database. If they did, they would have got a hit on the two murders in Illinois in 2005. So the question is whether all the DNA was entered into the national database.

 

[deugirtni]

Excellent points!

As to the location of the call, I've been thinking that it is highly likely that bar was frequented by plenty of Dofasco workers who probably knew each other or at least had interaction.Since DW and CV frequented the bar, chances are they knew a lot of Dofasco workers too. Former Stoney Creek resident Doug Shaw knew both DW and RB http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2225147-witness-places-badgerow-and-victim-at-same-bar/
So if many knew each other, chances are CV knew Dofasco workers too. Anyhow, just saying word could have gotten around.

Even Debbie Robertson's boyfriend worked there--beside RB apparently. (I hate that the Spec wants me to get a subscription to read even old articles, if I was getting paid for sleuthing I might subscribe, but I'm not so can't afford it ). I didn't catch Debbie's fiance's first name, last name Gillespie.
I like your point Deugirtini that the caller 'thought" he was being helpful.

Right now, I'm thinking if RB didn't kill her by the ravine, the only purpose for her murder would be a jealous SOB who may have seen her leave RB's truck, followed her and let her have it. There was no second sexual assault.

After writing the above, however, I pondered, if she left RB angry, she would have dressed herself and he 'could' have followed her and still murdered her. Just thinking. (speculation)

I'm not convinced that the caller was RB... although lisa Hepfner is reporting on the news that RB's voice was identified by people who knew him, the voice was also identified as NOT being RB by people who also knew him.. in equal proportions apparently, and the jury in this trial has not even heard this testimony yet. But as I was writing all of those posts above, i wondered.. what if RB had done what he said.. smoked a joint and had consensual sex with her in his truck, offered her a ride which she declined, and she left the truck to walk home.. what if RB had then watched.. followed.. and SAW her get taken down by someone... but he would never be able to tell what he saw, since he had just finished depositing his DNA into her body and would surely land in jail (although they didn't have DNA at the time, wouldn't they still have been able to do a test with some kind of other cells under a microscope to match them??) Or conversely, if he had seen this happen, he could have wanted police to believe she had had sex also with the murderer, get himself out of that whole tory... and so he made the call, thinking they could never match him to her body contents, and he could plant the seed in their heads that she had also been raped by the perp? Just thinking also.