GUILTY Canada - Diane Werendowicz, 23, raped & murdered, Hamilton, Ont, June 1981

[deugirtni]

Excellent points!

As to the location of the call, I've been thinking that it is highly likely that bar was frequented by plenty of Dofasco workers who probably knew each other or at least had interaction.Since DW and CV frequented the bar, chances are they knew a lot of Dofasco workers too. Former Stoney Creek resident Doug Shaw knew both DW and RB http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2225147-witness-places-badgerow-and-victim-at-same-bar/
So if many knew each other, chances are CV knew Dofasco workers too. Anyhow, just saying word could have gotten around.

Even Debbie Robertson's boyfriend worked there--beside RB apparently. (I hate that the Spec wants me to get a subscription to read even old articles, if I was getting paid for sleuthing I might subscribe, but I'm not so can't afford it ). I didn't catch Debbie's fiance's first name, last name Gillespie.
I like your point Deugirtini that the caller 'thought" he was being helpful.

Right now, I'm thinking if RB didn't kill her by the ravine, the only purpose for her murder would be a jealous SOB who may have seen her leave RB's truck, followed her and let her have it. There was no second sexual assault.

After writing the above, however, I pondered, if she left RB angry, she would have dressed herself and he 'could' have followed her and still murdered her. Just thinking. (speculation)

Fiesta Mall in Stoney Creek doesn't seem like it was that close to Dofasco to have been a huge steelworker hangout? According to googlemaps it takes about 15 minutes to drive there. And i think it's doubtful that many might know one another from work, even if the bar had been filled with Dofasco employees. According to stats there were approx 30,000 steelworkers (between both Stelco and Dofasco) in 1980, but the numbers started being reduced in 1981.
https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/ArcelorMitttal+Dofasco,+1330+Burlington+Street+East,+Hamilton,+ON+L8L/Fiesta+Mall,+Hamilton,+ON/@43.241308,-79.8150779,13z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m16!4m15!1m5!1m1!1s0x882c994b35cd4755:0x587ee6f71ed8cc93!2m2!1d-79.8112929!2d43.259268!1m5!1m1!1s0x882c9885000a6d43:0x8a7283ec83799fe4!2m2!1d-79.7486523!2d43.222609!2m1!1b1!3e0

https://books.google.ca/books?id=DT...ow many employees dofasco had in 1981&f=false

Hamilton was 'steeltown' back then.. not convinced the workers would necessarily know one another.. they were huge places with tens of thousands of workers.

I do however, think it makes a lot of sense to theorize that DW's bf could have potentially shown up to surprise her that evening after work, at malarkey's, where he knew she'd be... and instead, saw her getting out of some guy's truck.. followed her.. and exploded with jealousy/whatever.... no sex happened, as suggested earlier. Was that possibility even pursued, or was it taken at face value that the bf had gone away for the weekend?

 

[deugirtni]

Yes, we know this from legal documents! So why msm alludes to him being DR's attacker is just incorrect reporting.

It seems to me DR says she resorted to hypnotism to try to remember details. That tells me some memories were skewed.

Yes the only think causing the police to tell her she was right was the DNA and she apparently cried when they went back to her in '98 and told her. But again, isn't that disregarding what the judge decided in her trial?

Her/his trial in the Robertson attack didn't happen until sometime in the 2000's. RB had been cleared as a suspect during the 1981 investigation, and it had become a cold case... which RB wasn't arrested for until he was also arrested for DW's murder.. they brought charges to him on both cases at same time.

 

[deugirtni]

Regarding the phone call, I've been researching profiler info and this is called

Post-Offense Behavior: Is the perpetrator leaving messages, trying to interact or taunt the investigators?s the murderer trying to inject himself into the investigation by reacting to media reports or contacting investigators?

(This is in several articles, just Google Post-Offense Behaviour)

From this http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-7991.html ...

"So who needs to insert themselves in an investigation? Killers who obsess over control, killers who have no other way of keeping track of how close the cops are getting, killers who need the ego boost of watching the cops run in circles, killers who need to be noticed and approved by law enforcement...And there are different levels of participation. Some insert themselves into an investigation by just hanging out in a cop bar listening to conversations. Low risk, low visibility, pretty good information. And some insert themselves by trying to be a "witness", actively pursuing police information. "

it just doesn't seem like this call fits the bill for those descriptions... because he didn't step out so that he was identifiable and involved, but without LE suspecting he was the perp.. and he didn't seem to be reacting to media reports.. and the call didn't seem to be taunting.. but rather, he seemed to be feeling pretty confident that he had some valid info that he thought he was providing a service by sharing.. so does this mean he thought the police didn't already *have* all of his info, and does this mean that he only heard this stuff from somewhere as opposed to being the actual perp? It isn't even like he gave one clue on anything that the police wouldn't have obviously already have known (if the caller was the murderer, then he would have known this). No info at all about the attacker.. why? Did he know who it was, or had heard who it was from whomever he heard those details from? Wouldn't it be amazing if that caller would now come out of the woodwork and admit he called, and why, and where he got the info, and tell everything he knew?

 

[deugirtni]

I was just reading a non-related US story where they did test for DNA evidence BUT, they did not enter it into the national DNA database. If they did, they would have got a hit on the two murders in Illinois in 2005. So the question is whether all the DNA was entered into the national database.

I am wondering (I think I have read this before in different cases) if when a person gives a DNA sample voluntarily in relation to a specific case, the police only have the authority to use it for that one thing, that one time, and must be destoryed... but if it is a DNA sample which is ordered by the courts (for example, in the Millard Smich trial after they were found guilty of first degree murder), then it goes into a database and can be searched forever in relation to whichever cases are needed. jmo

 

[deugirtni]

I was just reading a non-related US story where they did test for DNA evidence BUT, they did not enter it into the national DNA database. If they did, they would have got a hit on the two murders in Illinois in 2005. So the question is whether all the DNA was entered into the national database.

The bf's DNA would have been useless in DW's case if he had approached DW *after* she got out of RB's truck after having consensual sex with RB, if bf didn't also have sex with her after that. Like RB's brother-in-law said at the time, RB would be the unluckiest guy alive, or whatever he said, if that happened to him... but it is also possible that RB is telling the truth and that the consensual sex actually happened, and that DW was actually attacked by someone else while she made her way home. I wonder if any lie detector tests were administered (even if not admissible at trial)?

I find it interesting, after reading back in some of the various case files, that the TH girl that RB was engaged to at the time, went on to marry him, and in total, they were together for 9 years before and after marriage, until the marriage ended after 3 years in 1985 or something... she reported that he had never been violent. She didn't have any children with RB, she was years done with him by the time RB was arrested and charged in either of the cases.. she had no reason to lie, and she stated that she would not have lied for him.

 

[Claroon]

Fiesta Mall in Stoney Creek doesn't seem like it was that close to Dofasco to have been a huge steelworker hangout?
https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/ArcelorMitttal+Dofasco,+1330+Burlington+Street+East,+Hamilton,+ON+L8L/Fiesta+Mall,+Hamilton,+ON/@43.241308,-79.8150779,13z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m16!4m15!1m5!1m1!1s0x882c994b35cd4755:0x587ee6f71ed8cc93!2m2!1d-79.8112929!2d43.259268!1m5!1m1!1s0x882c9885000a6d43:0x8a7283ec83799fe4!2m2!1d-79.7486523!2d43.222609!2m1!1b1!3e0

https://books.google.ca/books?id=DT...ow many employees dofasco had in 1981&f=false

Hamilton was 'steeltown' back then.. not convinced the workers would necessarily know one another.. they were huge places with tens of thousands of workers.

I do however, think it makes a lot of sense to theorize that DW's bf could have potentially shown up to surprise her that evening after work, at malarkey's, where he knew she'd be... and instead, saw her getting out of some guy's truck.. followed her.. and exploded with jealousy/whatever.... no sex happened, as suggested earlier. Was that possibility even pursued, or was it taken at face value that the bf had gone away for the weekend?

Well I used to go to downtown Hamilton from Brantford to meet friends (not to bars) and that was 30 min. I don't think proximity matters. Popularity of a bar might.

DW went to the bar with McMaster Hosp friends and that is quite a distance too. Depends on where everyone lived perhaps.

One article clearly said DR's boyfriend worked beside RB and the police told her not to tell her boyfriend she'd positive ID'd him in case it caused fighting. And RB showed up at work that night at 11:20 as you said, and her boyfriend shortly after that. Right there, there is a coincidence.

 

[Claroon]

I must be bored to think about this case so much. I was sleuthing it in my sleep!

Anyhow so far I see these possibilities and the judge says for us armchair jurors not to make a decision until the end

1. RB did only have sex, drugs and rock & roll with DW and drove home drunk and high.
2. RB was smoking a joint with her and then removed her clothes without consent, went too far, she got mad, put her jeans on and took her panties in a hurry, RB followed her thinking she might report him, did her in.
3. RB stalked her in the ravine and did everything (including putting her jeans back on (?) )

4. RB had sex with her and CV came to meet up with her and figured out she had just had casual sex, got mad and beat her.
5. RB had sex with her and some totally random stranger attacked her in the ravine. (Doesn't need intercourse to be sexual, so maybe DNA destroyed in the water if it was somewhere else on her.

 

[Claroon]

For anyone who might follow this case, here is another playback of the infamous call http://www.chch.com/911-call-robert-badgerow-trial/.

 

[dotr]

For anyone who might follow this case, here is another playback of the infamous call http://www.chch.com/911-call-robert-badgerow-trial/.

That was a good phone link, one thing that strikes me somehow, yet it is surely insignificant, was the phone booth caller saying ( paraphrasing) that "she was strangled with her purse".
A witness from a distance would likely say, " strangled with a purse " imo,

 

[deugirtni]

I must be bored to think about this case so much. I was sleuthing it in my sleep!

Anyhow so far I see these possibilities and the judge says for us armchair jurors not to make a decision until the end

1. RB did only have sex, drugs and rock & roll with DW and drove home drunk and high.
2. RB was smoking a joint with her and then removed her clothes without consent, went too far, she got mad, put her jeans on and took her panties in a hurry, RB followed her thinking she might report him, did her in.
3. RB stalked her in the ravine and did everything (including putting her jeans back on (?) )

4. RB had sex with her and CV came to meet up with her and figured out she had just had casual sex, got mad and beat her.
5. RB had sex with her and some totally random stranger attacked her in the ravine. (Doesn't need intercourse to be sexual, so maybe DNA destroyed in the water if it was somewhere else on her.

and 6. RB had sex with her and Steve Miller (the rapist who lived in her building) raped and killed her on her way home. or didn't rape her, because she told him she'd just had sex.. so killed her, etc.

 

[deugirtni]

In regard to the phone booth, when it is said that the phone booth was only steps away from where RB worked at Dofasco, I wonder how far it was in reality from his actual 'work station'? In one story it says 30 meters, which is 100 feet.. is that 100 feet from the beginning of the 'section' where RB worked, or 100 feet from where RB was actually stationed while working in that section? Dofasco is a big place.

Also, the prosecution theorizes RB made the call during his 'scheduled lunch break'. How long were the lunch breaks for Dofasco workers in that department in 1981? The call was made at 12:19pm. Did RB's lunch begin at 12 noon, or 12:15pm, or when? Did guys get to punch out for lunch whenever they felt like it, or was it mandated they were to all begin their lunches at 12 noon?

Did guys at Dofasco in that section eat their lunches/spend their lunch breaks at their stations, or was there an employee lunchroom where they all went to break, eat, and chat with coworkers? If lunchroom, how far away was the lunchroom from the phonebooth location? It may not be all that relevant that RB worked 100 feet from the phone booth, if he was way across the plant in a lunchroom somewhere? Too bad we don't have a map of these areas of Dofasco back in 1981?

Was that phonebooth at Dofasco in an area where workers would be allowed to go outside to smoke? Or did workers at the time just simply smoke right at their work areas? Which door would a worker enter/exit if coming out to use the phone booth? Were workers allowed to exit in and out of that door? I noticed there is a guard station there. Is that where outside contractors would come to sign-in before entering? I'm not sure of the MOL rules at the time.. did everyone entering/exiting have to sign in/out like they do now?

It was said in a story that RB said the phone booth was too dusty and noisy to have made that call... and the prosecution said, how would he know that if he'd never used the phone? From 1981 to 1998 is a long time and it probably wouldn't be difficult to surmise over the course of 17 years that the phonebooth would be dusty and noisy from all of the traffic flying by, etc., whether one had actually used the phone or not.

ETA: Come to think of it.. if police were dispatched right away like it is said that they were, I wonder what the results of interviewing the guard at the guard station right beside the phone booth would have been? Did he see anyone using it? Could he provide a description? The phonecall was said to be 3 days after DW's murder and it was investigated at the time (as opposed to 17 years later like some of the other things); surely police would have interviewed the guard? Would be interesting to know what he said??

The Crown suggests Badgerow placed the call from a pay phone outside of Dofasco Gate 6 at 12:19 p.m. on June 22 — during his scheduled lunch break as a coil strapper.

“Robert Badgerow testified the pay telephone outside of Gate 6 Dofasco was too dusty and noisy to use. That is a pretty strong statement from someone who testified that he had never used that pay telephone booth,” Vincelli said.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2...sex-in-the-car-scenario-called-pure-fiction-/

A Hamilton-Wentworth Regional Police cruiser was dispatched to a rusty blue-and-white phone booth beneath a sign for Dofasco Gate 6 at the No. 1 hot mill on Ottawa St. N.

Officers dusted for fingerprints and took photos. But they forgot the simple yet crucial step of picking up the receiver — a mistake that would have enormous consequences.


They were just 30 metres away from where Robert Badgerow was working the day shift.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...lairmont-s-unsolved-the-robert-badgerow-case/

 

[Claroon]

In regard to the phone booth, when it is said that the phone booth was only steps away from where RB worked at Dofasco, I wonder how far it was in reality from his actual 'work station'? In one story it says 30 meters, which is 100 feet.. is that 100 feet from the beginning of the 'section' where RB worked, or 100 feet from where RB was actually stationed while working in that section? Dofasco is a big place.

Also, the prosecution theorizes RB made the call during his 'scheduled lunch break'. How long were the lunch breaks for Dofasco workers in that department in 1981? The call was made at 12:19pm. Did RB's lunch begin at 12 noon, or 12:15pm, or when? Did guys get to punch out for lunch whenever they felt like it, or was it mandated they were to all begin their lunches at 12 noon?

Did guys at Dofasco in that section eat their lunches/spend their lunch breaks at their stations, or was there an employee lunchroom where they all went to break, eat, and chat with coworkers? If lunchroom, how far away was the lunchroom from the phonebooth location? It may not be all that relevant that RB worked 100 feet from the phone booth, if he was way across the plant in a lunchroom somewhere? Too bad we don't have a map of these areas of Dofasco back in 1981?

Was that phonebooth at Dofasco in an area where workers would be allowed to go outside to smoke? Or did workers at the time just simply smoke right at their work areas? Which door would a worker enter/exit if coming out to use the phone booth? Were workers allowed to exit in and out of that door? I noticed there is a guard station there. Is that where outside contractors would come to sign-in before entering? I'm not sure of the MOL rules at the time.. did everyone entering/exiting have to sign in/out like they do now?

It was said in a story that RB said the phone booth was too dusty and noisy to have made that call... and the prosecution said, how would he know that if he'd never used the phone? From 1981 to 1998 is a long time and it probably wouldn't be difficult to surmise over the course of 17 years that the phonebooth would be dusty and noisy from all of the traffic flying by, etc., whether one had actually used the phone or not.

ETA: Come to think of it.. if police were dispatched right away like it is said that they were, I wonder what the results of interviewing the guard at the guard station right beside the phone booth would have been? Did he see anyone using it? Could he provide a description? The phonecall was said to be 3 days after DW's murder and it was investigated at the time (as opposed to 17 years later like some of the other things); surely police would have interviewed the guard? Would be interesting to know what he said??


http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2...sex-in-the-car-scenario-called-pure-fiction-/


http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...lairmont-s-unsolved-the-robert-badgerow-case/

Thanks, I had a few similar questions mostly regarding the location. I think jurors would like to see a layout of how far the phone booth was from his Hot Mill #1. If they present the Robertson info, we'd )) like to see how long it would take to walk from the car to his work station since that is partly his alibi. And we'd like to know more about lunchtime procedures. (The photo below shows a different gate and outside is a lunch place. Made me wonder if they might even have coffee trucks drive up too.--maybe random conversation with coffee truck driver who then made the call. If RB didn't make the call, I hope, like you've said, the real caller will come forward).



You answered some questions for me as I'd never seen the time stamp of when the call was made nor the reference to lunch time. I do see it in the attached document now.

Regarding your question of if anyone was seen using the phone this document says this:

"A man, who did not resemble the
respondent, had been seen using the phone around the time of the call, but he
was not found in a search of the area http://www.900chml.com/files/2014/04/badgerow-appeal.pdf

also pg. 16 & 17

"The Crown also proposed to adduce employment records showing the
respondent was employed by Dofasco and on the day of the 911 call, June 22,
1981, was working a 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. shift in the coiler section at the No. 1 Hot
Mill Building, located on Ottawa Street North. The payphone booth was within
100 feet of that location and could have been accessed in 60 to 90 seconds. At
the time the call was placed, 12:18 p.m., the respondent would have been on his
lunch break. There was also evidence that security personnel at the gate would
not necessarily have observed someone using the payphone"

 

[Claroon]

Also, if his shift was 7 to 3 I'd suspect an earlier 30 min lunch, not one at 12:18.

 

[Claroon]

Quote Originally Posted by Claroon View Post
...
1. RB did only have sex, drugs and rock & roll with DW and drove home drunk and high.
2. RB was smoking a joint with her and then removed her clothes without consent, went too far, she got mad, put her jeans on and took her panties in a hurry, RB followed her thinking she might report him, did her in.
3. RB stalked her in the ravine and did everything (including putting her jeans back on (?) )

4. RB had sex with her and CV came to meet up with her and figured out she had just had casual sex, got mad and beat her.
5. RB had sex with her and some totally random stranger attacked her in the ravine. (Doesn't need intercourse to be sexual, so maybe DNA destroyed in the water if it was somewhere else on her.

and 6. RB had sex with her and Steve Miller (the rapist who lived in her building) raped and killed her on her way home. or didn't rape her, because she told him she'd just had sex.. so killed her, etc.

Thanks for sleuthing with me deugirtni. Wish more would join in.

A lightbulb came on when I was making that list and I'd never thought of #2 until then because the jeans on thing was bothering me. Also I read some rape documents online about rapist feeling rejected. He very well might have raped her in his vehicle, and she got away and he followed her either out of anger or not wanting to be identified. He did say she put on her jeans and took her panties with her.

I'm finding the idea of another stalker wanting to assault her for sexual purposes somewhat unbelievable. Her jeans wouldn't have been on. On one horrible website I checked out in my sleuthing, out of the 20 or so horrible-shouldn't-be-allowed photos, all were naked except for one had jeans on. I read some perps can't ejac and some do it on their face, in wounds, whatever their sick mind wants. (speculation)

Also--what vehicle did he drive?
Some articles have said truck and others have said car.

 

[Claroon]

LOL now my mind is racing again.

I'd check out the coffee truck driver. (I've worked places where there were such, even if you don't get your full lunch, you get a donut, chips, back then I think even smokes, etc. You get to know the driver and chit chat). I'd ask RB or other former Dofasco workers or relatives if they bought from a coffee truck.

Coffee truck for a 7-3 shift I'm guessing maybe arrives for lunch (don't know if it would stay a full hour) but say 10:45 arrival for 2 30 min lunch crews, finishes 12, packs up, heard the gossip or confession, is troubled, and heads for the phone 12:18 when no one else is around since they've gone back to work. IMO

 

[Claroon]

Do we know RB's height? Interestingly, DR had said in her description the perp was about five-foot-10, 175 pounds. Is RB actually 5' 10"?

DW is reportely 5' 9". That's tall for a girl. So, it makes sense if it was RB making the call he would say 5' 11" because he thought she seemed taller than himself. It would have to be someone who was close enough to estimate her height, not someone looking into the swamp. IMO

 

[dotr]

RB circa 2001, certainly appears to be tall.
https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/...an_to_face_fourth_trial_on_murder_charge.html

 

[deugirtni]

I went searching for how tall RB was a day or so ago, and the only thing I could find was what DR reported her perp to look like. I think his height would be an important consideration if they are accusing him of being the caller. If anyone finds that info, please post it! I was hoping for an arrest report or something, where it would note his height.

 

[deugirtni]

RB circa 2001, certainly appears to be tall.
https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/...an_to_face_fourth_trial_on_murder_charge.html

For all we know, he could have been standing on a beach ball or a stool or something? Are there any photos showing him standing next to other male adults?

 

[deugirtni]

Do we know RB's height? Interestingly, DR had said in her description the perp was about five-foot-10, 175 pounds. Is RB actually 5' 10"?

DW is reportely 5' 9". That's tall for a girl. So, it makes sense if it was RB making the call he would say 5' 11" because he thought she seemed taller than himself. It would have to be someone who was close enough to estimate her height, not someone looking into the swamp. IMO

RB would have to be quite a bit less than 5'9" if he thought DW was 5'11. isn't it rather less common for adult men to be less than 5'9"?