Found Deceased Canada - Genevieve Cormier, 19, St John, NB, 29 Sept 2013 - #2

[Trackergd]

Hopping back in, someone noted above about a knowledge of tides. While many killers use water as a disposal method, we can assume that where the bodies washed up was noted by the killer and how the previous cases were ruled. This would embolden the killer and bolster his warped sense that no one can catch him. Still wondering if he is related to the marine industry in some way as that would dovetail with a knowledge of tides in the area.

Is there any large commercial shipping in the area? Seasonal tugboat operation? Supply boats or ships that operate on a set schedule?

Such an act would need to be performed in a spot the killer felt safe would not be discovered, yet would provide a quick exit once he had secured his prey. I am guessing a quick grab off the trail using a handgun and verbal threat to keep quiet, into the wooded area and down to the water by at least three egress points I can see from the outstanding google map view posted.

Edited to add: Drowning by holding their head under the water "could" leave a lot less obvious trauma marks than other methods, and no obvious signs as strangulation by hand or ligature, gunshot or stabbing.

 

[jillybean51]

http://new-brunswick.net/Saint_John/reversingfalls/reversing.html

As you can see,anyone travelling the river by boat,certainly has to know the tides.I'm also wondering about places such as the Pulp Mill ,on the other side of the bridge.Could someone possibly be a shift worker? Many places have shifts 7-3pm,3-11 pm,11-7 am.Genn could of been taken after a day shift ,Shelby after an evening shift,Yeonchee after a night shift...It would explain the various times of disappearances.

 

[Sandpiper]

Hopping back in, someone noted above about a knowledge of tides. While many killers use water as a disposal method, we can assume that where the bodies washed up was noted by the killer and how the previous cases were ruled. This would embolden the killer and bolster his warped sense that no one can catch him. Still wondering if he is related to the marine industry in some way as that would dovetail with a knowledge of tides in the area.

Is there any large commercial shipping in the area? Seasonal tugboat operation? Supply boats or ships that operate on a set schedule?

Such an act would need to be performed in a spot the killer felt safe would not be discovered, yet would provide a quick exit once he had secured his prey. I am guessing a quick grab off the trail using a handgun and verbal threat to keep quiet, into the wooded area and down to the water by at least three egress points I can see from the outstanding google map view posted.

Edited to add: Drowning by holding their head under the water "could" leave a lot less obvious trauma marks than other methods, and no obvious signs as strangulation by hand or ligature, gunshot or stabbing.

Thanks for jumping in,also thanks for the dog info. We have quite a bit of ship traffic in St John harbour. For instance on Sept. 29(day Gen
disappeared) there were four ships in carrying petroleum and one with containers for foreign ports. Many tugboats operate all year round. In the summer months there are cruise ships in til the end of Oct.(none in day Gen disappeared) There is also a harbour cruise boat that runs til Oct 3. A ferry boat runs all year round between St John and Digby NS. On summer runs it makes two trips a day. The port areas can't be accessed by anybody they are fenced and gated off. I think a truck or perhaps a car was on the path and Gen was forced in and taken somewhere else. From the path the banks are too steep to access the water,except for down around the dock area back of the Boaz. I suppose she could be thrown in. The tide was coming in at 4:30 high tide was at 8:25.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Wow you people are amazing! Truth you have certainly contributed a lot of information and great sleuthing. Bless your heart. I've been reading off and on, a bit behind but I admire your perseverance in seeking the truth and justice as I for one do not believe Gen's death was what LE are saying. Too many coincidental circumstances in these cases. Sorry I don't have anything else to offer at this time but just want to say thank you to all of you, from the bottom of my heart for keeping this case in the forefront. The truth will prevail. MOO.

You, too, have contributed greatly to keeping this thread going, Swedie; so I wanted to take a minute to send thanks your way.

Some days I'm not so sure truth will prevail, but I can't help poking around.

The senseless taking of these young lives has become an open wound to me.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Hopping back in, someone noted above about a knowledge of tides. While many killers use water as a disposal method, we can assume that where the bodies washed up was noted by the killer and how the previous cases were ruled. This would embolden the killer and bolster his warped sense that no one can catch him. Still wondering if he is related to the marine industry in some way as that would dovetail with a knowledge of tides in the area.

BBM - Thank you for this. I Googled for hours trying to confirm my suspicion.

I couldn't find anything to link, but I found a book of tidal currents in the Saint John River/Bay of Fundy area that is available for purchase.

My guess is that even small boat owners would be able to predict with some degree of accuracy where something would make land.

I had the same feeling that he was enjoying himself with his sick, pathetic, little man games.

Is there any large commercial shipping in the area? Seasonal tugboat operation? Supply boats or ships that operate on a set schedule?

Yep, all of the above. Plus small private boats.

This link is a little bit 'touristy,' but gives you an idea. It contains a short, 2 minute, video.

Quote: Located in the southern part of the province of New Brunswick, Port Saint John is Eastern Canada’s largest port and has a diverse cargo base, handling over 31 million metric tonnes of cargo annually, including dry and liquid bulks, break bulk, containers, and cruise. With global connections to over 350 ports around the world, Port Saint John is easily connected to central Canadian inland markets by rail and road. Our port is a facilitator of trade and a part of Canada's Atlantic Gateway, providing a marine gateway to global markets.
http://www.sjport.com/

Edited to add: Saint John also has Canaport, which--coincidently, I'm sure; but interesting non-the-less--is located near the side of the bay where Gen was found.
http://www.canaportlng.com/

Such an act would need to be performed in a spot the killer felt safe would not be discovered, yet would provide a quick exit once he had secured his prey. I am guessing a quick grab off the trail using a handgun and verbal threat to keep quiet, into the wooded area and down to the water by at least three egress points I can see from the outstanding google map view posted.

BBM - This could pose a little bit of a problem for him.

The area of the river where at least two of the women went missing is clearly visible from the Reversing Falls Bridge, and I believe that is still a heavily traveled bridge.

Also, most of the egress points would be visible to anyone in the two restaurants. I'm not saying there is not a little cove there somewhere that would offer him the necessary privacy, though. There very well could be.

Maybe my theory is too complicated, but I'm thinking he grabs them in the wooded area of the path, and transports them via vehicle to his boat. Possibly he would have to take the boat out at least to near the mouth of the river to ensure himself the privacy necessary to make the dump.

I can't fathom at what point in all this he actually takes their lives.

Edited to add: Drowning by holding their head under the water "could" leave a lot less obvious trauma marks than other methods, and no obvious signs as strangulation by hand or ligature, gunshot or stabbing.

Very interesting points here. It's really deep cold water with dangerous rapids in places; but he could also have a dry suit like the commercial divers use.

That's another group of people that Saint John has plenty of, and they are extremely knowledgeable about the tides--their lives depend on it.

 

[Truth Prevails]

http://new-brunswick.net/Saint_John/reversingfalls/reversing.html

As you can see,anyone travelling the river by boat,certainly has to know the tides.I'm also wondering about places such as the Pulp Mill ,on the other side of the bridge.Could someone possibly be a shift worker? Many places have shifts 7-3pm,3-11 pm,11-7 am.Genn could of been taken after a day shift ,Shelby after an evening shift,Yeonchee after a night shift...It would explain the various times of disappearances.

Absolutely, Jilly. There are a lot of shift workers in Saint John.

Besides the pulp mill; they have power plants; they have the dry dock; and I'm sure there is more.

Great point about a shift worker and the times the victims disappeared--good catch. Big thumbs up there!

 

[Truth Prevails]

Thanks for jumping in,also thanks for the dog info. We have quite a bit of ship traffic in St John harbour. For instance on Sept. 29(day Gen
disappeared) there were four ships in carrying petroleum and one with containers for foreign ports. Many tugboats operate all year round. In the summer months there are cruise ships in til the end of Oct.(none in day Gen disappeared) There is also a harbour cruise boat that runs til Oct 3. A ferry boat runs all year round between St John and Digby NS. On summer runs it makes two trips a day. The port areas can't be accessed by anybody they are fenced and gated off. I think a truck or perhaps a car was on the path and Gen was forced in and taken somewhere else. From the path the banks are too steep to access the water,except for down around the dock area back of the Boaz. I suppose she could be thrown in. The tide was coming in at 4:30 high tide was at 8:25.

Thanks for sharing this information.

Regarding the BBM - If your ship is stationed in the harbor, can you still get in and out with a pass? You used to be able to, but maybe they changed this.

I'm not sure I'm saying what I mean clearly, so I'll use an example. Say you are working on a ship, and your ship comes into Saint John and docks; you can leave your ship and go shopping uptown, or out to the clubs at night, if the ship issues you a pass. There used to be a man working the gate, just like at a paid parking lot.

 

[Trackergd]

One would assume the harbor master would have a list of the ships that come in on a regular basis. Obtaining a copy along with the suspected dates the individual victims went missing might hit upon a match.

Shift workers would be another potential as one would look for a shift letting out about an hour before each victim was taken giving the actor time to get himself into position, however the time between abductions would lead me to think that the actor is able to control his desires for only so long. The time span between abductions seems too long for a local unless he has a lot of self control or there is a mitigating factor.


Disclaimer: I am not a certified Behavioral Analyst, I only play one on WS.

 

[Trackergd]

If by chance there is a correlation between the dates and a particular boat/ship, I would look for other ports of call and similar deaths at those ports.

 

[Truth Prevails]

One would assume the harbor master would have a list of the ships that come in on a regular basis. Obtaining a copy along with the suspected dates the individual victims went missing might hit upon a match.

I suspect the general public couldn't obtain those records, but I am 100% positive that they exist.

Shift workers would be another potential as one would look for a shift letting out about an hour before each victim was taken giving the actor time to get himself into position, however the time between abductions would lead me to think that the actor is able to control his desires for only so long. The time span between abductions seems too long for a local unless he has a lot of self control or there is a mitigating factor.


Disclaimer: I am not a certified Behavioral Analyst, I only play one on WS.

BBM - A mitigating factor might be the population size of the city.

If he started taking these women once a week or even monthly, the city would go into lock down and the residents would be out after him with their pitch forks in hand.

He is patient enough to use the timing to his advantage, I think. He appears to know the danger in taking too many too soon.

This guy could be dumb as a rock but still clever, iykwim.

I'm thinking the residents have had enough of this as it is. He may be aware of that and is looking to leave the city. That is good news for Saint John, but may be very bad news for another city of his choice.

And I recognize the "or," -- that this could be a stranger to the city who regularly visits the port and other ports of call along the way.

I pray that they are checking or have already checked for other similar crimes in other port cities.

These are serious crimes involving the potential for others to lose their lives, so no stone should be left unturned; and I see that there are many stones to look under.

 

[OldSteve]

Wow so much info to digest - thanks everyone!

I see I made a mistake in the update I did to Truth Prevails comparison list -

Oops--nope. Just two--Yeonhee and Genevieve.

Not much is really know about Shelby's last reported location.

Earlier in the evening, she was at a friends house on Garden St., and that is where she left her purse, (taking her wallet and cell phone with her.)

We don't know if she would have walked from there to the uptown area. Garden Street is within walking distance, but I don't think I would walk that area alone late at night. (Even many years ago.)

Or she may have walked with someone.

It seems to have been confirmed that she was at least later seen in the uptown area--but that is all we have on her.

I can't find any info on any ground searches done for her. I think they may have really believed she ran away in the initial stages.

We don't even know who reported her missing or when, but they did have missing person's bulletins out within a few day.

Got to fix the Comparison List... Wow, Truth, that was allot of work you put into that Listing!

Glad to see your are here Trackergd! Wow, allot gumshoe work in checking out all the things you mentioned! And thanks again to everyone esle!

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

I am learning so much here, but am still hung up on her purse/bag strap still being on her. (I understand that it was a longer strap and she wore it crossed over her chest.) Just seems so odd that a killer (hypothetical scenario, not suggesting anything) would leave something like that in that way. Truth is much stranger than fiction though. Looking for patterns re ship activity/port times seems like a realy great idea.

 

[Truth Prevails]

I am learning so much here, but am still hung up on her purse/bag strap still being on her. (I understand that it was a longer strap and she wore it crossed over her chest.) Just seems so odd that a killer (hypothetical scenario, not suggesting anything) would leave something like that in that way. Truth is much stranger than fiction though. Looking for patterns re ship activity/port times seems like a realy great idea.

BBM - same here.

I don't have a date for this picture, but it is the coat Gen was wearing when she was last seen, and that strap across her chest is probably her shoulder bag.

I agree that it is very, very odd that it was still on her when she was found. I do not see how that could happen--but, yes, truth can be stranger than fiction sometimes.

I'm quite sure the power of the ocean can even take the clothes off your back, especially anything loose that could fill full of water. (I've been reading up on burials at sea gone wrong.)

Not very many of these killers bother to re-dress their victims, so the fact that she was found with her shoulder bag is definitely a point that goes toward the accidental death theory.

I can paint a scenario where the possible perpetrator--knowing the purse contained Gen's ID--wanted her to be found with it, so she could be quickly identified as his latest victim:

Signaling his cockiness; how pleased he is with himself; and how desperate the pathetic loser is for recognition.

I can't figure out how he managed it without firmly tying it on, though.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Wow so much info to digest - thanks everyone!

I see I made a mistake in the update I did to Truth Prevails comparison list -



Got to fix the Comparison List... Wow, Truth, that was allot of work you put into that Listing!

Glad to see your are here Trackergd! Wow, allot gumshoe work in checking out all the things you mentioned! And thanks again to everyone esle!

Thank you for hanging in there with us, Mr. Steve! :loveyou:

It takes a lot of time to read some of my long winded comments, and you've been here every day--sharing your ideas, and hoping for justice.

 

[Truth Prevails]

If by chance there is a correlation between the dates and a particular boat/ship, I would look for other ports of call and similar deaths at those ports.

Well, I did find the following on this point.

First of all--I couldn't find anything for September, 2012; which is when Shelby went missing.

Below are the records for September, 2013--Gen; and April, 2012--Yeonhee.

I'll post the link where you can check through them all, but I did screen shots so we could have them on file.

I tried to include all vessels that were in the harbor that day; even if they arrived before, basing this on their departure date.

Those which correlate with Yeonhee's disappearance:

Those which correlate with Genevieve's disappearance:

More here: http://www.sjport.com/business-resources/cargo-movement/daily-vessel-activity-report/

I'm not seeing any that were there at both times.

I'll keep looking to see if we can still have access to the logs for Sept. 22/12.

 

[OldSteve]

Thank you for hanging in there with us, Mr. Steve! :loveyou:

It takes a lot of time to read some of my long winded comments, and you've been here every day--sharing your ideas, and hoping for justice.

:blush:
Thanks for kind words! I really look forward each day to seeing your posts! All so interesting and informative. You are doing the heavylifing here, I'm just chiming in...

 

[OldSteve]

BBM - same here.

I don't have a date for this picture, but it is the coat Gen was wearing when she was last seen, and that strap across her chest is probably her shoulder bag.

I agree that it is very, very odd that it was still on her when she was found. I do not see how that could happen--but, yes, truth can be stranger than fiction sometimes.

I'm quite sure the power of the ocean can even take the clothes off your back, especially anything loose that could fill full of water. (I've been reading up on burials at sea gone wrong.)

Not very many of these killers bother to re-dress their victims, so the fact that she was found with her shoulder bag is definitely a point that goes toward the accidental death theory.

I can paint a scenario where the possible perpetrator--knowing the purse contained Gen's ID--wanted her to be found with it, so she could be quickly identified as his latest victim:

Signaling his cockiness; how pleased he is with himself; and how desperate the pathetic loser is for recognition.

I can't figure out how he managed it without firmly tying it on, though.

My thinking is that Gen was taken and held somewhere and then placed the water - I just cannot see her purse staying with her like it did.

She may have been tricked/coaxed into getting back into her clothing after being held by (s) and who knows what was done with/to her. (Ugh! don't like saying that!)

Agree and it makes sense what you said Truth about her ID being purposely kept and in her purse and that it was purposely left with her so she'ed be ID'ed.

In the idea world - tests would be done using some sort of human like dummy to see if they are placed in the water at locations corresponding to where these women are believed (or best guess) to have entered the water, and then see where currents, etc. would take them... thought would have to be done close to same time of years for true test... It's possible the currents are such that they would wind up where the real women were found; dispelling the coincidence of the two who were found so close to each other.

 

[margarita25]

If by chance there is a correlation between the dates and a particular boat/ship, I would look for other ports of call and similar deaths at those ports.

:rockon:

 

[margarita25]

Well, I did find the following on this point.

First of all--I couldn't find anything for September, 2012; which is when Shelby went missing.

Below are the records for September, 2013--Gen; and April, 2012--Yeonhee.

I'll post the link where you can check through them all, but I did screen shots so we could have them on file.

I tried to include all vessels that were in the harbor that day; even if they arrived before, basing this on their departure date.

Those which correlate with Yeonhee's disappearance:

Those which correlate with Genevieve's disappearance:

More here: http://www.sjport.com/business-resources/cargo-movement/daily-vessel-activity-report/

I'm not seeing any that were there at both times.

I'll keep looking to see if we can still have access to the logs for Sept. 22/12.

:rockon:

 

[margarita25]

IIRC, I made some posts early on re: a boat tours place that kept coming up in my mapping? <looking for posts>