GUILTY Canada - Loretta Saunders, 26, Halifax, NS, 13 February 2014 #2

[otto]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/helpbringlorettasaundershome/permalink/261049504056221/
Post by Robbie regarding LS.
A couple of family members comment in the post as well.
I am not sure if is ok to post the link here or if us should have been paraphrased but thought it worth showing.

If you could paraphrase, I would appreciate it, as it is not accessible to people without a facebook account.

 

[kdgdid]

Re: roommates vs. subletting

I had wondered if there might have been a fuzzy agreement on the move-in like "I'll be moving to my boyfriend's apartment sometime in February but am too busy to pack up everything for a couple of weeks. If you can move in now and overlook my coming and going, I can give you a break on rent". Would explain why Yelcin saw it as subletting, but that she was present enough to explain

a) the police describing it as a roomate situation
b) VH complaining on facebook that she hated her roommate
c) Yelcin not being concerned if she was gone for a day or two
d) why she might be willing to let the rent slide for a little bit (if she felt they had done her a favour by allowing overlapped roommate time)

Loretta's sister lived with her and had recently moved to BC so I am unclear on whether she rented V&B with the intention of subletting or if she was going to remain a roommate

 

[otto]

Paraphrased: Loretta Saunders was found in a hockey bag in the ditch in New Brunswick. This information just released on CTV news:

Video of newscast: http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=302955

Watch the ad and then at about the 00:08 to 00:12 mark of the video.

In the clip, the suspects and victim are described as roommates. Her undergrad thesis supervisor describes her murder as "colonial violence".

 

[appleeye]

If you could paraphrase, I would appreciate it, as it is not accessible to people without a facebook account.

I think it has been shown before. It basically professes R's love for Loretta and says his heart is broken.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Very, very powerful and I am also thinking that they may just have a witness in the cab driver they found and interviewed that was sitting in the circle outside the apartment building.

Oh, good thinking.

Oooh, maybe. lease:

 

[otto]

Ok, you win. There's no possibility that she sublet and lived elsewhere. They were room mates. Now what?

Initially it was reported that Loretta had sublet her apartment to Blake and Victoria. Later, police reported that they were roommates. What now? Now comes the question of why she would allow two homeless drifters with no references and no work history to move into her home without securing rent and damage deposit. With that question in mind, I came to the question of whether Blake and Victoria were referred by someone. Per Loretta's brother, Blake and Victoria may have been referred by her "boyfriend". We know that the family named someone other than the foreign student as her "partner".

Next, we know that the "partner" and Loretta faced drug trafficking charges in 2008 and we know that the suspects have drug possession charges. This drug connection supports the possibility that Blake and Victoria may have known the "partner" and that they may have been referred by him. What does all this mean? I don't know. It does open up the possibility that there was more going on than meets the eye. I think this is important in terms of understanding the broader picture of the murder of Loretta. I don't believe that this was a result of "colonial violence".

 

[Truth Prevails]

Do you have a link for serial killers preferring short women?

Loretta Saunders was 5'5" and 120 lbs. 5'3" is the average height for females. (link) There is absolutely no correlation between Loretta's height and the probability that she will be a victim of violence.

We don't have any details about how Loretta was murdered, so we are unable to say whether she was drugged or attacked with a weapon. We only know that two suspects have been arrested for her murder.

BBM - Sure. I was hoping you would ask.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/profiling/s_k_myths/index.html

Make no mistake, however--I am not suggesting Loretta's death was committed by a "serial" killer or killers.

My point was to highlight the vulnerability of petite females, and 5'5" is definitely on the petite side, btw. Especially when comparing it to a man's height and strength.

We don't know what the murder weapon was; but we do know that two people are charged with the 1st degree murder of Loretta Saunders.

Tell me, are you suggesting that there may be a humane way to murder someone?

We also know that her body was discarded in a ditch; and we have just been enlightened with the fact that she was stuffed into a hockey bag.

 

[Truth Prevails]

BBM

We don't know anything about Loretta's pregnancy. Per her family, the foreign student from Turkey is not her "partner".

We do know that the suspects and victim were roommates:

"Police have laid first-degree murder charges against the roommates of Loretta Saunders ... Yalcin Surkultay, who dated Saunders for 2½ years, told CBC News that when he last saw his girlfriend, she told him she was going to try to collect rent money from her roommates."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...ates-charged-with-1st-degree-murder-1.2554052

Regarding the bolded statement by me: Quote: "Per her family, the foreign student from Turkey is not her "partner"." Please supply a link from main stream media to support your statement.

In addition to your link suggesting the alleged murderers were roommates, we also have the following:

Quote: At a news conference Tuesday, her boyfriend said he last saw her while she was leaving his home to check on an apartment that he said she was subletting to Leggette and Henneberry.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...-murder-of-pregnant-student-loretta-saunders/

I guess we can each pick which ever one suits us.

 

[otto]

BBM - Sure. I was hoping you would ask.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/profiling/s_k_myths/index.html

Make no mistake, however--I am not suggesting Loretta's death was committed by a "serial" killer or killers.

My point was to highlight the vulnerability of petite females, and 5'5" is definitely on the petite side, btw. Especially when comparing it to a man's height and strength.

We don't know what the murder weapon was; but we do know that two people are charged with the 1st degree murder of Loretta Saunders.

Tell me, are you suggesting that there may be a humane way to murder someone?

We also know that her body was discarded in a ditch; and we have just been enlightened with the fact that she was stuffed into a hockey bag.

I don't see anything on the linked page about the average, preferred height for victims of serial killers.

The average height of women is 5'3", so if 5'2" is the preferred height of victims, then any woman of almost average height is a preferred victim, making that claim meaningless. That is, not all women in the 5'2-5'3 range are victims, even though they are all the same height. There is far more to being a victim than height.

Loretta was taller than the average 50th percentile female, so her height has nothing to do with the fact that the was murdered. She was three inches taller than the above referenced "preferred height" category.

Pre-meditated murder charges do not mean a conviction. The conviction could also be 2nd degree or manslaughter. We don't have any information about how Loretta was murdered. Was there an act of aggression and sudden death, or was there a murder weapon? We don't know. Was car and bank theft an afterthought, or a premeditated plan?

What made Loretta a victim? That is a good question. Was it her height ... the colour of her skin, her blue eyes, the fact that she attended university, her ancestry, or because she had a spare room in her apartment? If, per her brother, she needed the money for her studies, then why didn't she get money from the suspects when she gave them her apartment keys? Why was she looking for rent money within a month of them receiving the keys?

 

[Truth Prevails]

But how do you know that for sure?

At this point, no one know for sure exactly what that arrangement was.

 

[kdgdid]

Very, very powerful and I am also thinking that they may just have a witness in the cab driver they found and interviewed that was sitting in the circle outside the apartment building.

that was exactly what I was thinking and if so I believe LE was looking for the taxi driver that was parked outside the building at 2;30 on Feb13th if I am remembering correctly

 

[Truth Prevails]

I think this whole debate is pretty off-topic, and sorting out the degree to which people here think it is fine or not fine for the family or others in the media to use this case to raise awareness about missing and murdered aboriginal women won't actually do much to sort out the case. The fact is that Loretta identified herself as aboriginal, she prioritised the work enough to write a paper on it and her family (the people who have the most at stake in how her name is used) supports using this case for that cause and their doing so doesn't impede LE's ability to solve and prosecute her case, so there really isn't anything to debate.

But I also want to respond to this accusation of dividing and fragmenting women because, as a white woman whose vulnerability would appear to get less attention if we promote the cause of missing and murdered aboriginal women, I 100% disagree. There is a ladder of targets - I'm lower on it than you, and therefore more likely to be victimised. Aboriginal women are lower on it than I am and even more likely to be victimised. The statistics bear it out (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2011001/article/11439-eng.htm) and your bringing up individual cases of non-aboriginal women who were targeted doesn't change that this is the reality that aboriginal women are living with.

I don't feel that efforts to end violence against women as a whole is in any way undermined by looking at facts about violence and seeking to understand why the facts might disproportionately target me but even more disproportionately target other women, nor do I feel I lose anything in supporting those women's voices when they want the media to hear and understand how large the threat of violence they live with is.

But seriously, I would really rather leave this debate to the family and politicians. This is how they're choosing to find meaning in their loss. I can't judge or begrudge them that.

Thank you for this very well written comment.

I agree with all your points, but struggle, (and fail), to say it so well. Thank you, again.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Thank you...I agree. She could have been a one eyed orange fuzzy monster and they wouldn't have cared. I am of the belief that it was a crime of opportunity.

Yes, sadly, I think you are correct.

A couple of worthless grifters--already running from the law in various provinces--decided that they would up their ante and this time murder.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Loretta's did not write an undergraduate thesis. She submitted a topic proposal on February 4 and was murdered 9 days later.

Criminal Stats in Canada including people from all walks of life: http://www5.statcan.gc.ca/subject-s...d=2696&lang=eng&type=STUDIES&pageNum=1&more=0

I would suggest that she had put a great deal of work into submitting her topic proposal.

The following links support why I feel this way:

The article contains a link to Loretta's professor speaking to Loretta's character, ambition and drive.
http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/canada/newbrunswick/story/1.2548195

This is a link to an opinion piece that Loretta's professor wrote after the news of her murder was released, and as he was trying to make some sense of her death.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/aboriginal/trying-to-make-sense-of-loretta-saunders-death-1.2555237

 

[Truth Prevails]

Re: roommates vs. subletting

I had wondered if there might have been a fuzzy agreement on the move-in like "I'll be moving to my boyfriend's apartment sometime in February but am too busy to pack up everything for a couple of weeks. If you can move in now and overlook my coming and going, I can give you a break on rent". Would explain why Yelcin saw it as subletting, but that she was present enough to explain

a) the police describing it as a roomate situation
b) VH complaining on facebook that she hated her roommate
c) Yelcin not being concerned if she was gone for a day or two
d) why she might be willing to let the rent slide for a little bit (if she felt they had done her a favour by allowing overlapped roommate time)

I agree with everything, here; but I just wanted to metion a few things about "C."

Not a lot was reported on that. I wonder if he was concerned but chose not to go to the police. I don't mean to suggest that he made the right choice, but perhaps he was worried sick.

He may have tried to contact her repeatedly, and even gone to her apartment. Possibly he didn't have keys, or when he didn't see her car there he decided he shouldn't approach the "tenants."

Loretta's sister also got a strange message from her, and didn't act immediately; nor did Loretta's father--whom supposedly talked to Loretta every evening.

I feel much compassion for Yalcin--he lost not only Loretta, but also his unborn child.

 

[otto]

I would suggest that she had put a great deal of work into submitting her topic proposal.

The following links support why I feel this way:

The article contains a link to Loretta's professor speaking to Loretta's character, ambition and drive.
http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/canada/newbrunswick/story/1.2548195

This is a link to an opinion piece that Loretta's professor wrote after the news of her murder was released, and as he was trying to make some sense of her death.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/aboriginal/trying-to-make-sense-of-loretta-saunders-death-1.2555237

Loretta's research topic proposal has not been released to the public. Her instructor said that she was assigned a 10 page proposal. Her proposal was 28 pages. He seemed overly emotional about the proposal even in the early email. He described that when they met to discuss the topic, he had a tear in his eye and had to look away. University professors aren't really supposed to do that (sexual harassment barriers, etc).

Loretta proposed to write about three victims of violence with a connection to Nova Scotia. Two of the victims were advocates for aboriginal rights, and the third might have been. One of the victims (1975) lived in the US and the accused was extradited from NS. He was convicted. Two of the three murderers are aboriginal, and the third is suspected to be known to the victim. One of the victims was murdered by her own son.

That is what we first heard about the proposal. Her instructor has an agenda, and now her research topic has morphed into a much bigger topic. Her topic seems to be about aboriginal men murdering aboriginal activists. Her instructor's topic seems to be "colonial violence". Somewhere in the middle, there is the question of missing/murdered aboriginal women, but that doesn't seem like the original research topic proposal, nor does it seem related to Loretta's murder.

 

[Truth Prevails]

I think it has been shown before. It basically professes R's love for Loretta and says his heart is broken.

It also contains comments from members of Loretta's family sending prayers of strength and love to Yalcin.

 

[Truth Prevails]

I don't see anything on the linked page about the average, preferred height for victims of serial killers.

The average height of women is 5'3", so if 5'2" is the preferred height of victims, then any woman of almost average height is a preferred victim, making that claim meaningless. That is, not all women in the 5'2-5'3 range are victims, even though they are all the same height. There is far more to being a victim than height.

Loretta was taller than the average 50th percentile female, so her height has nothing to do with the fact that the was murdered. She was three inches taller than the above referenced "preferred height" category.

Pre-meditated murder charges do not mean a conviction. The conviction could also be 2nd degree or manslaughter. We don't have any information about how Loretta was murdered. Was there an act of aggression and sudden death, or was there a murder weapon? We don't know. Was car and bank theft an afterthought, or a premeditated plan?

What made Loretta a victim? That is a good question. Was it her height ... the colour of her skin, her blue eyes, the fact that she attended university, her ancestry, or because she had a spare room in her apartment? If, per her brother, she needed the money for her studies, then why didn't she get money from the suspects when she gave them her apartment keys? Why was she looking for rent money within a month of them receiving the keys?

BBM - Let me know if you need me to find the paragraphs for you, I will gladly copy and past to assist you.

Regard the rest--simply put--Loretta was murdered. That makes her a victim.

First degree murder charges are on the table. I trust that such charges wouldn't be laid if the Crown did not think they were appropriate.

We are going to have to wait until trial before we can glean much more info.

I believe most of us will be horrified when we learn what Loretta and her unborn child suffered.

However, I am also aware that it is never wise to predict the outcome of a trial.

 

[otto]

I agree with everything, here; but I just wanted to metion a few things about "C."

Not a lot was reported on that. I wonder if he was concerned but chose not to go to the police. I don't mean to suggest that he made the right choice, but perhaps he was worried sick.

He may have tried to contact her repeatedly, and even gone to her apartment. Possibly he didn't have keys, or when he didn't see her car there he decided he shouldn't approach the "tenants."

Loretta's sister also got a strange message from her, and didn't act immediately; nor did Loretta's father--whom supposedly talked to Loretta every evening.

I feel much compassion for Yalcin--he lost not only Loretta, but also his unborn child.

That's a good point. If they were so close that they were sharing apartments after 2.5 years of dating, would they have keys to each other's apartment? Did he go to her apartment and see nothing out of place ... other than no one was home? Did he not have keys? Was it normal for them to be out of touch for a couple of days?

Loretta's sister received a text that said "Hey" and nothing else. She said that Loretta is usually, chatty so it didn't make sense that she only said "hey". By the time this happened, it was too late.

Loretta was only a few weeks pregnant ... perhaps too early for blood test confirmation. The friend from Turkey was not only not mentioned in the obituary, but when he sought donations for airfare in order to attend the funeral, there was some criticism. It doesn't sound like her family views him as being related to the pregnancy. Other than the interview with the head of the NS Native Centre, has the family recognized him as part of Loretta's family?

Did the Turkish friend recommend Blake and Victoria? It's possible, but he's a computer science student and it's unlikely that he could do that and be stoned with people like Blake and Victoria. If he introduced them and vouched for them, that might explain why the family doesn't appear to recognize him as part of the family.

 

[Truth Prevails]

that was exactly what I was thinking and if so I believe LE was looking for the taxi driver that was parked outside the building at 2;30 on Feb13th if I am remembering correctly

I think they found him, too.

Quote: Sgt. Nancy Rudback said the major crimes unit interviewed the driver on Saturday night. But she won't say if the driver provided any useful information.
http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/canada/newbrunswick/story/1.2548195