Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #13

[LadyL]

The advantage, though, might be that ballistics could match them to the other deaths definitively... (assuming gunshot, and not knife wounds, but who knows...)

good point

 

[Deleted member 248860]

Why not? Why are they hiding all the other info about this case? Maybe it's just a US vs Canada thing but I've never seen a case before in my life where basic information about the crime committed was never released, weeks after it happened, even after the suspects were found dead. My guess is their plan is to just not say anything until the general public forgets about this case and just "forget" to ever release anything.

Well, maybe it will, but it shouldn't have to come out that way...the press is exploiting someone who I don't think is in their right mind to know that they're being exploited. JMO.

You’re right. It’s a difference between the US and Canada. The latter does not operate as a reality TV show giving out information piecemeal.

You say that you are annoyed that the cause of death hasn’t been released. Did you want it before the autopsy or 10 seconds after?

Let’s suppose the cause of death is gunshot. First question at the press conference: was it murder/suicide or two suicides. Just possibly, the answer to that question takes some analysis. So the police say gunshot, and you scream incompetence when they say that they have to do analysis to figure out exactly what happened.

This isn’t 24/7 American cable news with two or three enforcement agencies all working on the same case and leaking like a sieve. The manhunt is over and the RCMP can, and should, make a statement when they’re good and ready.

 

[LadyL]

I'm truly sorry to post this disturbing photograph again, but by way of illustration...

You'll see that the vehicle is pulled off a bit onto the gravel and the body locations are down a bit of a slope below. That is why I suggest the possibility that, at night, they might not be seen. MOO. In fact, as I pointed out, they weren't noticed for a full two hours in complete daylight.

I don't see much of a slope or ditch but travelling at high speeds I could see how they would be missed.

 

[LadyL]

Now that us 'sleuthers' spent the better part of Friday parsing the burnt keys at the site of the Rav4, I hope this is laid to rest. I did not find anything abnormal about that. For those of us also following the Mackenzie Lueck murder case - the LE hard search warrants for AA's home with crime scene tape around it. The next day the tape was removed, and a reporter from Inside Edition walked around the backyard of the property with film crews and cameras. A week or so later, LE returned back to the house and got more evidence from inside. In the countless murder cases or investigations I've followed, that appears to happen often that LE will return to a point of a crime scene. If the Rav4 keys were missed, I do not for one moment feel it was due to poor police work.

agreed thank you!

 

[NJSleuth91]

You’re right. It’s a difference between the US and Canada. The latter does not operate as a reality TV show giving out information piecemeal.

You say that you are annoyed that the cause of death hasn’t been released. Let’s suppose it’s gunshot. First question at the press conference: was it murder/suicide or two suicides. Just possibly, the answer to that question takes some analysis. So the police say gunshot, and you scream incompetence when they say that they have to do analysis to figure out exactly what happened.

This isn’t American cable news with two or three enforcement agencies all working on the same case and leaking like a sieve. The manhunt is over and the police can, and should, make a statement when they’re good and ready.

Ok. Let's put it this way. Say you were friends with one of these two suspects. So, not getting inside information that their families may be getting (if they even are). The police are like "Your friend murdered three people. But we're not going to tell you how they did it or why we think it was them that did it. Also your friend was found dead in the woods. But we may never tell you how they died, depends on if we feel like it or not. Instead we're going to drop coy hints like this is some kind of scavenger hunt." Wouldn't you be feeling like they're playing games at this point?

 

[Vern]

That would likely be the third location that RCMP searched near Dease Lake, in addition to the burned truck and the roadside turnout where LD was discovered.

And if it IS true that they had been camping there for a few days, that would imply they headed from the crime scene near Liard Hotsprings back to Dease Lake almost directly. Then something triggered them to suddenly burn their camper, steal a vehicle and flee eastwards in a hurry, killing LD in the process.

This is the article that mentions them searching the camp site they supposedly used (the 3rd crime scene):

Searching for answers: Sense of unease lingers in B.C.’s isolated north as police hunt suspects in remote killings

...
“It was the first thing like that ever happening around here,” Ms. Ball said. The two men were recognizable, as was their truck. Some residents of Dease Lake recalled them camping in a lot outside town, and RCMP searched there. Ms. Adams’s said her mother saw the men hitchhiking along the highway, each thumbing in a different direction.
...

This article is also the one that contains the photo of the large electronic billboard sign seeking footage from the Alaska Highway that the suspects may have seen which triggered in them a need to ditch their truck and obtain another vehicle in fear that they and their trucker with camper would be identified.

The sign says:

"RCMP need dashcam video July 14-15 near Muncho Lake, please call (250) 774-2700"

This is also the article that details the mother seeing the boys both out hitchhiking in opposite directions that someone else was trying to find earlier.

 

[Vern]

My hunch is that RCMP came back to RAV4 burn site because of comments about the keys and other stuff left behind.

Perhaps. But, I'm unsure what the keys actually have to do with anything - especially now. The boys obviously had the keys when they stole the vehicle as they'd have had to stop to gas it up along their route (there MUST be more footage of them on their journey as a single tank would not have gotten them from Northern BC to Gillam). I suspect that the most important thing to do was find the two wanted suspects as there were truly people with lives at risk until that situation was dealt with one way or another. The keys are minutae at that point. Why need them? To check for fingerprints? Occam's Razor.

 

[dameagatha]

I have some insight and opinion I’d like to share


The truck and camper.

Port Alberni is a mill town and was formed around the logging industry. This is a town where an old pickup truck would have more value than a new convertible sports car. There is a notable “redneck” culture on northern Vancouver Island that stems from its fishing and logging heritage.


The diesel dodge that KM was driving would be considered to be high value in this area. Its not uncommon to see mid 90’s dodge diesels like KMs sell for $10 000-$14 000CAD depending on condition. Based on the photos I’ve seen it is a 4x4 and in very good shape so this would be a highly coveted vehicle for this area and most of Vancouver Island (with the exception of Victoria area).

The camper is a Bigfoot which means it is a 2 piece fibreglass. This is a much for valuable unit than a more common camper constructed out of wood.

My estimated street value for that vehicle/camper in this area would be around $18-20 000CAD.

For a young male on Vancouver Island, this would be a highly desired vehicle.

I still haven’t found out whether the truck was his or if he borrowed it.

At some point in time, the value of the truck (and computer) to KM and BS was greatly diminished by other circumstances.

If you look at a picture of KM and BS with the butterflies (instagram), you will notice in the background the boom/mast/seat for a self-loading logging truck.

This was a big tip for me in helping to understand where they came from. I was able to pursue this and it brought about some new insight. Some of that I cannot share due to the rules. But that information is helpful and for those who are interested you won’t have to look hard to see where I went.

Based on my research, I’m of the opinion that KM *should* have had an easier time getting local employment (that was better than Walmart) through family connections. I will leave it at that.

2)Bryers Instagram photo of him squatting with the vodka bottle

It’s evident BS was searching for his identity (as we all do) and latched onto slavic culture. He was interested in his own heritage according to AS.

Do you see how BS is squatting, wearing the flat hat? He is only missing Adidas pants, and he would be a “gopnik” which I believe he is emulating.

You can search gopnik and get a better understanding of what it means, but you will discover its embedded in Eastern European pop culture. It is also a big part of gaming.

“Squatting Slavs in Track Suits” is a great facebook page that posts regular fodder relating to the slavic gopnik culture. (Also is Babushka)

Guns are a big part of slavic culture.

I would not consider BS’s interest in slavic culture alarming based on my own local experiences and understanding of generational pop culture. This is fairly mainstream stuff for gamers. Looking at the pieces from my (admittedly) narrow viewpoint, I would opine that BS’s interest in slavic culture was a way of him finding his own identity in a world where that may not have been so easy for him.
Just wanted to touched on those two points.

I keep coming back to the bond the two shared and I think thats an important dynamic for us to dive into.

I have lots more to add to this but I will keep it light today.

So pleased with how well run and respectful this forum is, thanks to all.


Grateful for the coverage of LD and the early photos of him. Hoping for the same from LF and CD, condolences to all.

Thank you. Fascinating detail about Bryer’s identity construction.

 

[Deleted member 248860]

Ok. Let's put it this way. Say you were friends with one of these two suspects. So, not getting inside information that their families may be getting (if they even are). The police are like "Your friend murdered three people. But we're not going to tell you how they did it or why we think it was them that did it. Also your friend was found dead in the woods. But we may never tell you how they died, depends on if we feel like it or not. Instead we're going to drop coy hints like this is some kind of scavenger hunt." Wouldn't you be feeling like they're playing games at this point?

I find it amazing that you think that the RCMP should be explaining to Schmegelsky’s and McLeod’s friends what happened in the first place. What do you think should be taking place? You just call up the RCMP, say that you knew McLeod and ask the officer who answers, in the middle of an investigation that hasn’t been completed, to explain what they think may have happened from the day McLeod left Port Alberni? I’m pretty sure that wouldn’t be happening even in the US.

Furthermore, the RCMP have already said that there will be a statement next week and you have zero reason to believe that that statement won’t include cause of death. You’re making up an issue that doesn’t even exist yet.

 

[Vern]

RCMP did not lie about the discovery of the bodies.

No; I'm sure they could smell them. That would be a reason to state they no longer believed them to be a threat. Just hadn't actually located their remains, but knew they were in the vicinity.

 

[missy1974]

Why not? Why are they hiding all the other info about this case? Maybe it's just a US vs Canada thing but I've never seen a case before in my life where basic information about the crime committed was never released, weeks after it happened, even after the suspects were found dead. My guess is their plan is to just not say anything until the general public forgets about this case and just "forget" to ever release anything.

Well, maybe it will, but it shouldn't have to come out that way...the press is exploiting someone who I don't think is in their right mind to know that they're being exploited. JMO.

I'm guessing you have never followed a Canadian case before? lol We have actually heard way more than I ever expected to hear. RCMP has stated they are still investigating Chynna and Lucas' murders, and the mere fact that there were no charges laid before the 2 men were found dead, tells me that they may not have had enough evidence to do so. So until they are done investigating, I am not sure how much more we will hear officially.

Hypothetically... (very hypothetically IMO)... what if there is a 3rd person involved? What if they can't connect the 2 to Chynna/Lucas murders? Canada still has laws in place that prevent the publication of details of crimes, and until they are certain, the integrity of the information/investigation has to remain.

 

[SiberianSleuth]

Maybe nobody else finds this odd, but I thought it was kind of strange when he pulled up and they were stuck that they had the doors of the vehicle open. I wonder why. If I was stuck in mud and standing outside assessing the situation, I'd probably close the doors of the vehicle just to avoid getting any mud in the car while I was trying to unstick myself. They'd been stuck for over an hour, apparently, so it wasn't like they just got out.

They didn't work hard to pay for the car, it was stolen. Highly doubt they cared about keeping it clean.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I find it amazing that you think that the RCMP should be explaining to Schmegelsky’s and McLeod’s friends what happened in the first place. What do you think should be happening? You just call up the RCMP, say that you knew McLeod and ask the officer on the phone to explain what happened from day one? I’m pretty sure that wouldn’t be happening even in the US.

Yes that's exactly my point. Most of the people who knew them are reliant on the media for this information. They aren't going to be able to call the RCMP and ask what happened. Which is why the RCMP should stop playing games with the media. I think sunshine laws are a great thing...the public is informed about relevant issues AND we get an array of delightful Florida Man stories.

Furthermore, the RCMP have already said that there will be a statement next week and you have zero reason to believe that that statement won’t include cause of death. You’re making up an issue that doesn’t even exist yet.

I'm extrapolating based on past behavior. Also that article posted a few pages back hinted that the police may not release COD.

 

[Vern]

I find it amazing that you think that the RCMP should be explaining to Schmegelsky’s and McLeod’s friends what happened in the first place. I’m pretty sure that wouldn’t be happening even in the US.

Furthermore, the RCMP have already said that there will be a statement next week and you have zero reason to believe that that statement won’t include cause of death. You’re making up an issue that doesn’t even exist yet.

Exactly. The RCMP will also release a statement eventually, once their investigation is completed, into LF and CD's murders which will confirm or deny that these two were responsible for their deaths with wording something, if Canadian standards hold, like "The RCMP has been able to establish through evidence that S&M were responsible for causing the deaths of LF and CD. This case is now considered closed." They've already put it out there that there is no longer a threat to the public.

Here in Canada, we tend to trust our very competent National LE which is obviously not the case south of the border.

Other than that, the RCMP owe we - the public - not an iota more.

 

[missy1974]

Ok. Let's put it this way. Say you were friends with one of these two suspects. So, not getting inside information that their families may be getting (if they even are). The police are like "Your friend murdered three people. But we're not going to tell you how they did it or why we think it was them that did it. Also your friend was found dead in the woods. But we may never tell you how they died, depends on if we feel like it or not. Instead we're going to drop coy hints like this is some kind of scavenger hunt." Wouldn't you be feeling like they're playing games at this point?

Unfortunately, it's just the way it's done here. Even if they were alive, being a friend or family member, I wouldn't have any more information, and probably even less right now. IF they were arrested, I may have more information only because they would have lawyers who would have that information, and the accused may tell others, but there is still laws in place that prevent it from being published in the public.

It can be frustrating to follow a Canadian case. Even as a Canadian it is... but that is the way it is, and I guess if it was my friend or family member being accused, I might appreciate the rules, but as an observer and/or a victim or victim's family, it's definitely frustrating.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Exactly. The RCMP will also release a statement eventually, once their investigation is completed, into LF and CD's murders which will confirm or deny that these two were responsible for their deaths with wording something, if Canadian standards hold, like "The RCMP has been able to establish through evidence that S&M were responsible for causing the deaths of LF and CD. This case is now considered closed." They've already put it out there that there is no longer a threat to the public.

Here in Canada, we tend to trust our very competent National LE which is obviously not the case south of the border.

Other than that, the RCMP owe we - the public - not an iota more.

So what you're saying is, you expect they will never release any explanation of what evidence links Kam and Bryer to Lucas and Chynna's murders. And you're fine with that? I don't understand how anyone could be fine with that. You won't be able to ever convince me this lack of transparency is a good thing.

 

[musicaljoke]

Is the main thing/only that's tying them to Dyck's murder the fact that they were driving Dyck's car? What else is absolutely, 100% known to us as fact that ties them to Dyck murder? The Fowler/Deese murders?

That's about all the evidence that is truly obvious to us. However,the RCMP said that there was substantial evidence of them being the murderers, so we can guess that there is some solid evidence of that fact.

So what could be the evidence of which the RCMP speaks? There likely would be footprints, and probably DNA evidence to put them at the scene and maybe even enough to reconstruct their movements. Is it possible that both suspects left home with camo jackets and one was left behind at the crime scene? A witness perhaps, dashcams ... personal items left behind, perhaps the murder weapon was found? Who knows?

Lots of guesswork, but just stealing a vehicle isn't enough to bring about murder charges.

 

[missy1974]

The sign says:

"RCMP need dashcam video July 14-15 near Muncho Lake, please call (250) 774-2700"

RSBM

Does anyone know when they put that on the sign though? I thought it was after they were gone from the area. I recall seeing an article or tweet about the sign and I didn't start following this at all until the day before they were called 'suspects', so I'm not sure if this would have been on the sign before the 19th.

 

[Vern]

So what you're saying is, you expect they will never release any explanation of what evidence links Kam and Bryer to Lucas and Chynna's murders. And you're fine with that? I don't understand how anyone could be fine with that. You won't be able to ever convince me this lack of transparency is a good thing.

They may and they may not. I'm sure they will give some details, but if you're expecting what you get in the US I have a feeling you will be disappointed. Whether both K&Bs fingerprints are on the keys etc is, quite simply, irrelevant.

This is Canada and not the US. Stuff that is actually irrelevant to the public-at-large usually doesn't get released to the public-at-large.

We may also have different standards for transparency and trust, which is obviously not the case with LE south of the border. We have an automatic trust until it's proved undeserved up here while there is a distinct "question everything when it comes to LE actions" down there these days. Different countries in different social times.

Just because we don't see them disclose something does not mean they are trying to cover something up. That's all I'm saying.

 

[missy1974]

Perhaps. But, I'm unsure what the keys actually have to do with anything - especially now. The boys obviously had the keys when they stole the vehicle as they'd have had to stop to gas it up along their route (there MUST be more footage of them on their journey as a single tank would not have gotten them from Northern BC to Gillam). I suspect that the most important thing to do was find the two wanted suspects as there were truly people with lives at risk until that situation was dealt with one way or another. The keys are minutae at that point. Why need them? To check for fingerprints? Occam's Razor.

differing opinions.... the keys might not hold any additional evidence... but they might... and if they aren't collected, then how do we know? Like someone pointed out yesterday... when Millard was arrested, they found the key to Bosma's truck on his key ring. Who's to say what all those keys are? and 1 might connect them to Chynna and Lucas and provide another connection to those murders. No way to know if they were left in the bush. JMO

Personally I think they were probably LD's keys for the RAV4, but I'm no key expert lol