Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #13

[Moonlitnight]

The family feels LD should be remembered for what he achieved in life, not for how he died. He had a long accomplished career behind him.

Perhaps LF and CD are different because they where young free spirits without much life achievement behind them. The most notable part of their life was in fact how they died, and the loss of their potential.

And that is just fine. I just watched the full interview with the great uncle. Just sickening all round. Every now and again I feel sorry for the boys and then I think, no. Don't go there. Look what they did to so many people.

 

[LadyL]

And yet Canadians have been criticizing the RCMP left and right in this case, including on this board -- for example it was suggested greater transparency about the threat to the area may have saved Prof Dyck's life. Apparently this policy isn't going so well for you guys.

it's going fine for me

 

[dameagatha]

seems to me anywhere that LE takes 4 hours to get to should have people a little worried about being there.

Most people are not murderers. That’s the beauty of travel: you find out most people all over the world are nice, generous, helpful.

 

[Schmoosh]

RSBM

An interesting-to-me anecdote from the Millard/Smich cases. We had several Americans following with us, and one of them said that Canadian cases are her favourites to follow precisely because of the way things work here. The bedrock principles of a public and transparent justice system are the same as they are in the US, but the timelines can be shifted forward. Protection of the course of justice is paramount in all decisions, and that can result in publication bans on parts of the proceedings, particularly in high profile cases. But those bans are virtually always temporary, so information is deferred, not suppressed.

All court proceedings are still open to the public and to journalists, but journalists may be unable to publish some details or proceedings until the ban is lifted, most typically after the trial. It essentially boils down to if the jury can’t hear it, neither can you right now. That’s a key aspect of what that American sleuther loved about it. She was in the position of following along just like a juror with no more information than they had. Once the publication bans are lifted, we learn via media what we missed, and all the court documents reflecting the proceedings and judgments that were temporarily held back end up in full in Canlii, an online legal database. I’m not sure what the Canlii equivalent in the US is - probably something state-by-state - but she loved the implementation here and the scope and detail of what could eventually be accessed.

There will be no trial here of course, but it’s my belief that the RCMP will assess a public interest and there will be adequate information released. It just won’t necessarily be quick, and there may be elements that are protected by our strong privacy laws, like LD’s injuries/cause of death were. The continuing investigation will be very thorough, leaks will be extremely unlikely, and then at some point we will learn what happened and LE’s conclusions will be supported with necessary facts. So, American friends, hang in there and be patient and I think you will be satisfied in the end.

Excellent post. And most Canadian reporters, like we've seen in this case, when they were asked to not publish photos, or details they've overhead, have respected the RCMP's request.

 

[otto]

So what you're saying is, you expect they will never release any explanation of what evidence links Kam and Bryer to Lucas and Chynna's murders. And you're fine with that? I don't understand how anyone could be fine with that. You won't be able to ever convince me this lack of transparency is a good thing.

Factual information will be released. An ongoing commentary about what RCMP are thinking and doing will not be released. There is not a lack of transparency, there is a mandatory requirement to ensure accuracy of all information that is released.

RCMP are in a difficult situation where they must discover whether the suspects would be found guilty if there was a trial. Hopefully the suspects' cell phones are intact and hopefully they took photos while they were on the run. Hopefully ballistic tests can connect the dots. We know that Dyck, Fowler and Deese deaths are connected. We don't know how RCMP came to that conclusion.

Canadian law is very different from USA law. Information is released in order to move an investigation forward but, after an arrest, everything is silent until trial. Canadians are patient when it comes to learning more. This is no different, except there will be no trial. There will be a statement from RCMP explaining why the investigation is concluded and how they arrived at that conclusion. Be patient.

 

[Gina20]

From dotr's link above:

Toronto police Chief Mark Saunders said in June that police took the "unprecedented step" of releasing their findings in the year-long probe out of compassion for the families and in recognition of the widespread impact the attack had on the community.

The 23-page report did not identify a specific motive, but it said Hussain had a fascination with death and violence. He also had a long history of mental health issues and repeatedly harmed himself, the report said.

Toronto shooting survivor says details helped her as RCMP mum on B.C. cases

 

[musicaljoke]

The frontline RCMP officers should not have decided on July 22/23 which objects near the burnt RAV4 will not provide any value.

But my main point is that found keys should never be discarded, just like found wallets. That simple rule has nothing to do with crime scenes.

Wallets and keys belong to people, and we are taught to find a way to return them.

Oh, I see what you are saying. Yes, keys should not be discarded. I believe the lovely officer (who gave us the massive hint) addressed this when he said that the frontline RCMP officers didn't linger to process the scene because of the potential danger to themselves.

 

[Kiantra]

I was just listening to an August 7th, CBC interview, the lawyer interviewed stated Mr Dycks body was burnt (see 4:55 mark). I have never heard this before. Anyone else?
https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1584469571997

 

[dameagatha]

Are people still going on with this video game theory? Is that what you were replying about? Just curious.

There is an up arrow in the quote text box. It will take you to the conversation.

 

[Schmoosh]

Who knows. They didn't even give a vague description like saying "gun violence." I don't think the RCMP wanted Lucas and Chynna's cause of death to be revealed either. But that lack of detail is important. If the victims were shot 50 times that implies a very different story than if they were shot once. We can't determine the "why" unless we know the "how."



Well, the perps have been dead for probably three weeks, so they're past the point of having info seeded to them. And I'm pretty sure the public would be better able to send in tips if they actually knew what was going on.

You're assuming all the perps are dead.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Let's put it this way...if the Walmart shooting that happened last week had been reported as "A man murdered 20 people at Walmart but we're not going to tell you how," wouldn't that seem weird to you? You would assume it was probably guns, but you would also wonder why they can't just say it.

Oh they can say it, it would be nothing like that.

Take the Danforth shooting (again). LE reported the number of victims and their ages, the number of injured and their age range, the fact that a handgun was used, that the shooter was shot to death, and the press reported some eyewitness accounts.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4346484/toronto-greektown-danforth-logan-shooting/

In the BC case, they probably don't have a weapon and have to work backwards forensically from wounds, maybe shell casings and bullets. Because everything has to go through the lab there is going to be a delay. They are not going to say it was a shooting based on a quick glance at the scene, just as they are not going to officially announce the suspects have been identified until they complete forensics.

 

[Moriarty]

There may still be a trial of sorts, but that’s up to the BC Coroners Service. If the Chief Coroner believes it would be beneficial to the public interest, he or she can call for a coroners inquest. That would mean a jury would be impaneled (5-7 people I think), testimony and witnesses heard, evidence presented, experts called, etc. At the end of it all, a full report released to the public.

 

[Kubirai]

Perhaps LF and CD are different because they where young free spirits without much life achievement behind them. The most notable part of their life was in fact how they died, and the loss of their potential.

During the past few years, Lucas Fowler and Chynna Deese lived a full life, volunteered, made many friends, found love, travelled widely.

 

[Massasauga Rattler]

From dotr's link above:

Toronto police Chief Mark Saunders said in June that police took the "unprecedented step" of releasing their findings in the year-long probe out of compassion for the families and in recognition of the widespread impact the attack had on the community.

The 23-page report did not identify a specific motive, but it said Hussain had a fascination with death and violence. He also had a long history of mental health issues and repeatedly harmed himself, the report said.

Toronto shooting survivor says details helped her as RCMP mum on B.C. cases

And a complete sham of a report. Probably the poster example for politically motivated police secrecy and whitewashing.

Was really one of biggest reasons I lost a lot of confidence in LE in this country to be transparent and honest.

 

[JuneBug67]

Just a clarification. There is a ban on publication on the preliminary inquiry, which is a pre-trial process to determine whether there is enough evidence to go to trial.

With one significant exception, there is no ban on publication on any of the trial. The exception is hearings, called voir dires, on whether evidence, such as a confession, is admissible. The press can only report on such evidence after the judge has ruled that it is admissible. At that point, the evidence goes to the jury, if there is one, and is also public.

I think we’re mostly saying the same thing. Prelims are not automatically pub banned though, at least not in Ontario; bans are considered by request, and defense teams usually request them. I would argue that publication bans can be somewhat more broadly justified than you describe, and not so tightly tied just to the evidentiary considerations you lay out.

Publication ban - Wikipedia

 

[Schmoosh]

Yes I'm going to have to search for it when I'm not on my phone.

I doubt they saved much from 5 weeks at wal-mart simply because I'm not sure how much they would have made. We know Bryer already spent some of his earnings on a suit, too. My guess is the McLeod family may have largely funded the trip. I'd love to know what Kam told his parents about why they were going and where.

This might also explain the complete lack of urgency for them of doing anything for days after the first murders. They had money to spare and, at the time, remained unconnected to the crime.

When I find it, Tarika, I will link it on here.

If two guys of relatively limited means who had plans to take a road trip with ill intentions, they might consider getting a nightshift job at a store that has all the supplies they need, for only as long as it takes to "obtain" them. Say, a Wal-Mart for 5 weeks, for instance.

 

[Gina20]

Just a clarification. There is a ban on publication on the preliminary inquiry, which is a pre-trial process to determine whether there is enough evidence to go to trial.

With one significant exception, there is no ban on publication on any of the trial. The exception is hearings, called voir dires, on whether evidence, such as a confession, is admissible. The press can only report on such evidence after the judge has ruled that it is admissible. At that point, the evidence goes to the jury, if there is one, and is also public.

Publication bans are not automatic in preliminary hearings. They have to be requested. I recall one case where this was not done, and the judge asked, "Are you sure you wouldn't like to ask for ask for a publication ban?" Oops.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I was just listening to an August 7th, CBC interview, the lawyer interviewed stated Mr Dycks body was burnt (see 4:55 mark). I have never heard this before. Anyone else?
https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1584469571997

I wonder how they were able to create such a detailed image of Mr. Dyck when they sought to identify him if that were in fact true. I haven't heard that his body was burned before and I am not sure I believe that what this lawyer says is true. Perhaps he is confused given the two vehicles were burned.

 

[1987]

if the guys deaths were suicide wouldn't their gun be close and wouldn't the casings from death be close? if so why the metal detectors. I assume RCMP is looking for either a firearm or casings with metal detector. what else could be so important that would be metal?

 

[otto]

And yet Canadians have been criticizing the RCMP left and right in this case, including on this board -- for example it was suggested greater transparency about the threat to the area may have saved Prof Dyck's life. Apparently this policy isn't going so well for you guys.

Don't be so sure about that. Some on this forum have been critical of the investigation, but there is no reason to assume all are Canadian. It's more likely that some are criticizing simply for entertainment, to create conflict. Others may have a long standing issue with RCMP, and this investigation is an opportunity to exaggerate facts in order to find fault.

As for the botanist - a man in his 60s who very likely listens to the news and who could very well have been aware of the murders - he probably thought that murder happens to other people, not him.