Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #16

[MistyWaters]

You are correct. The van was not in a pullout. It was on the side of the highway, but completely off of the road. Pullouts are only being mentioned because the poster was stating that it is illegal to park st them overnight, and highly risky.

I noticed on the Govt of BC tourism website it also stipulates its illegal to camp overnight at rest stops. But the definition of true camping is far broader than resting (or dozing or sleeping) inside a vehicle or van.

Other than sitting in lawn chairs waiting for their overheating vehicle to become operative and nothing more, I wouldn’t define L&C were “camping” unless they also lit a campfire, set up an outdoor table, cooking outdoors etc.

But just something to mention, the location where the van was parked certainly did appear to attract roadside attention. At least three parties that we know of - The mechanic, the woman who called police and the unknown 11:30pm person. If L&C intentionally chose that spot to stay the night after the van unheated, I don’t quite get why they wouldn’t have found another more private location. Which is why I think the van still wouldn’t start and they were just waiting it out until morning.

 

[SteveP]

I noticed on the Govt of BC tourism website it also stipulates its illegal to camp overnight at rest stops. But the definition of true camping is far broader than resting (or dozing or sleeping) inside a vehicle or van.

Other than sitting in lawn chairs waiting for their overheating vehicle to become operative and nothing more, I wouldn’t define L&C were “camping” unless they also lit a campfire, set up an outdoor table, cooking outdoors etc.

But just something to mention, the location where the van was parked certainly did appear to attract roadside attention. At least three parties that we know of - The mechanic, the woman who called police and the unknown 11:30pm person. If L&C intentionally chose that spot to stay the night after the van unheated, it seems to me finding somewhere a bit more private would be preferable. Which is why I think the van still wouldn’t start and they were just waiting it out until morning.

I completely agree with everything you said here.

 

[Zella]

I noticed on the Govt of BC tourism website it also stipulates its illegal to camp overnight at rest stops. But the definition of true camping is far broader than resting (or dozing or sleeping) inside a vehicle or van.

Other than sitting in lawn chairs waiting for their overheating vehicle to become operative and nothing more, I wouldn’t define L&C were “camping” unless they also lit a campfire, set up an outdoor table, cooking outdoors etc.

But just something to mention, the location where the van was parked certainly did appear to attract roadside attention. At least three parties that we know of - The mechanic, the woman who called police and the unknown 11:30pm person. If L&C intentionally chose that spot to stay the night after the van unheated, I don’t quite get why they wouldn’t have found another more private location. Which is why I think the van still wouldn’t start and they were just waiting it out until morning.

Yeah, I personally don't see what they were doing as camping either, given the circumstances. There's no indication they would have pulled over there and spent the night if the van were functioning properly. And given the remoteness of the area, they didn't seem to have many options that didn't involve just abandoning the vehicle entirely.

 

[otto]

BBM

Yeah, I think one of the things that drew me to the case was the descriptions of LF and CD taking the mechanical mishap in stride and deciding to make the best of it. I would have come unglued! But I think it's a good insight into their personalities, as well as the fact they were experienced travelers. I think they knew sometimes, on trips, somethings things just happen, and you have to roll with it.

I think in their mind it was just going to be an interesting anecdote for family and friends after the trip was over. "Just a couple of days in, the van flooded, and we spent the night on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere in British Columbia!" And, by all rights, that's all their vehicle breakdown should have ever been.

That's one reason I think they could have been relaxed about staying overnight and sorting it out the following day, even though the flooded engine happened at 3:30PM. The scenery is breathtaking. It's a fantastic place to wake up in the morning.

I'm curious whether other international tourists spent 6 months working at the same Hudson Hope ranch, and whether camping tips and the travel van were passed along from one tourist to the next. I'm curious whether they knew highway safety regulation and law, and if not, why not. Where is the breakdown of information.

 

[10ofRods]

I'm finding this thread a bit of a 'blaming the victim' for pulling off to the side of the road. I'm going to guess that it's rare to be attacked at the side of the road, based on the number of people who do so. I might be wrong.

I'm hearing people say, "who would ever pull over?" "Everyone knows it's a risk." But truly how often does it happen relative to how often people pull over?

Just curious.

Yeah, it reads that way (a little) to me as well. Of course, I'm adamantly in the camp of no sleeping by the side of the road (and all of us in my family have a tow package and...I gave up my glorious plan to drive through Canada to Alaska a few years ago).

But where does this end? No camping at all? We do dispersed camping, although not as much as when we were younger because...well, we are outnumbered by the partying crowd out there, and many are armed. Even if they have no bad intentions, they are drunk and have guns (this in the US of course).

I would think most people would think Canada was far safer. So yeah, I can see thinking that turn-out was an okay place to spend one night. I'm more likely to be bitten by a rattlesnake, given my annual activities.

 

[MistyWaters]

Very interesting and good catch! Do you think L&C stayed there maybe or K&B? I think it's a plausible reason for RCMP wanting dashcam footage.

I just thought of another reason - the 11:30pm sighting of the man in the Jeep and it was said police believed the vehicle was travelling south.

 

[otto]

Yes, people should be aware, but I think you are promoting "fear", particularly of criminals. I think the risk of nature FAR outweighs that of criminals. I think the risk of criminals is quite low. I do think that we all underestimate the risk of nature far too much. So many people die from the elements of nature.

But to take this case and fan the flames of fear of the bogeyman is excessive in my mind.

I agree. However, that does not change the fact that camping on the shoulder or at a highway pullout is unsafe and unlawful. It is considered unsafe for other traffic, particularly at dusk (reduced visibility), and because it is isolated (opportunistic crimes). That was the situation before the tourists were murdered in July. It is safety and crime prevention, not fear.

 

[copkid]

I'm finding this thread a bit of a 'blaming the victim' for pulling off to the side of the road. I'm going to guess that it's rare to be attacked at the side of the road, based on the number of people who do so. I might be wrong.

I'm hearing people say, "who would ever pull over?" "Everyone knows it's a risk." But truly how often does it happen relative to how often people pull over?

Just curious.

There have been several posters through all threads that seem to feel that Lucas & Chynna were some how at fault for sleeping in their van on the side of a Canadian Highway.

It is redundant and dis-respectful IMO

The van was disabled, Lucas was confident he could handle it. It didn't happen so they really had no choice but to stay where they were.

If the closest RCMP was 4 hours away, my guess is a tow truck was equally as far.

No fault, just two adventerous souls making the best of a bad situation.

Wrong place...wrong time....random

JMO

 

[otto]

I noticed on the Govt of BC tourism website it also stipulates its illegal to camp overnight at rest stops. But the definition of true camping is far broader than resting (or dozing or sleeping) inside a vehicle or van.

Other than sitting in lawn chairs waiting for their overheating vehicle to become operative and nothing more, I wouldn’t define L&C were “camping” unless they also lit a campfire, set up an outdoor table, cooking outdoors etc.

But just something to mention, the location where the van was parked certainly did appear to attract roadside attention. At least three parties that we know of - The mechanic, the woman who called police and the unknown 11:30pm person. If L&C intentionally chose that spot to stay the night after the van unheated, I don’t quite get why they wouldn’t have found another more private location. Which is why I think the van still wouldn’t start and they were just waiting it out until morning.

As soon as they decided to stay the night rather than have the vehicle towed, they were camping. When this first happened, I was half expecting to hear that they had called a tow truck and that it was refused because tow drivers don't like to hook up after dark. It sounds like they planned to call the tow truck the following day.

 

[Snoopster]

Yeah, it reads that way (a little) to me as well. Of course, I'm adamantly in the camp of no sleeping by the side of the road (and all of us in my family have a tow package and...I gave up my glorious plan to drive through Canada to Alaska a few years ago).

But where does this end? No camping at all? We do dispersed camping, although not as much as when we were younger because...well, we are outnumbered by the partying crowd out there, and many are armed. Even if they have no bad intentions, they are drunk and have guns (this in the US of course).

I would think most people would think Canada was far safer. So yeah, I can see thinking that turn-out was an okay place to spend one night. I'm more likely to be bitten by a rattlesnake, given my annual activities.

I truly believe it's far safer in Canada. Not many people have guns/weapons. Should people be on alert in the wilderness? Yes.

But I don't think it's productive to promote the idea that everyone is at risk for pulling over.

I agree. However, that does not change the fact that camping on the shoulder or at a highway pullout is unsafe and unlawful. It is considered unsafe for other traffic, particularly at dusk (reduced visibility), and because it is isolated (opportunistic crimes). That was the situation before the tourists were murdered in July. It is safety and crime prevention, not fear.

But you quoted a case of someone driving on the highway and getting shot. I do think you are exaggerating the risk. Criminal elements in the north are certainly there, but not all encompassing. Let's not exaggerate the risk of people pulling over to the side of the road. We shouldn't cause people to drive on when they have a problem, solely because they heard that there are "criminals that will likely attack them".

(And this is from someone who respects you and knows that you are incredibly bright and definitely knows much more technically than I do. )

 

[scrappinkat]

Of course not. I think there should be more awareness of highway regulation and law. No one should assume that beautiful scenery means absence of criminals and safety hazards.

You’re assuming that the couple were blissfuly unaware of highway law and perhaps that they assumed that Canada has a wall that keeps criminals out?

Seems to me that they found them themselves in an unexpected breakdown, but believed it an easy fix. By sleeping in their van they made a decision that was entirely reasonable. I assume they had every intention of dealing with the mechanical issues in the morning, during daylight. A terrible, random and tragic crime occurred that they were the victim of. No amount of knowledge about roadside rules and indeed even the knowledge of bad guys are out there would have led them to believe that they were in imminent danger, IMO anyways.

 

[MistyWaters]

That's one reason I think they could have been relaxed about staying overnight and sorting it out the following day, even though the flooded engine happened at 3:30PM. The scenery is breathtaking. It's a fantastic place to wake up in the morning.

I'm curious whether other international tourists spent 6 months working at the same Hudson Hope ranch, and whether camping tips and the travel van were passed along from one tourist to the next. I'm curious whether they knew highway safety regulation and law, and if not, why not. Where is the breakdown of information.

You could be right in your curiosity as we know nothing about the ranch as it relates to L&C’s preparation for this trip.

Even if the van had been inspected, as it should’ve been in order to be registered and insured by LF in Alberta as it was more than 12 years old, I’d also question the standards of the Automotive Shop who performed the inspection because clearly it was prone to mechanical issues and Alaska was still a long way down the highway and passing through the Yukon was still ahead. Had the van not let them down, they wouldn’t have been parked on the side of the road with overheating issues on the 2nd day of their journey.

 

[sandbar]

...on the 2nd day of their journey.

OMG I've been wondering when they left. Thanks for this, do you have a link? Do you know when the Prof left?

 

[otto]

There have been several posters through all threads that seem to feel that Lucas & Chynna were some how at fault for sleeping in their van on the side of a Canadian Highway.

It is redundant and dis-respectful IMO

The van was disabled, Lucas was confident he could handle it. It didn't happen so they really had no choice but to stay where they were.

If the closest RCMP was 4 hours away, my guess is a tow truck was equally as far.

No fault, just two adventerous souls making the best of a bad situation.

Wrong place...wrong time....random

JMO

I disagree. No one is suggesting that they willfully broke the law. The assumption is that they were unaware of Canadian law and highway safety regulation. The discussion is how to address this information gap. Should there be better information at park gates or borders? Would anything make a difference?

They were in the wrong place at the wrong time when the worst case scenario happened. They were isolated when 2 crime of opportunity teens drove by. RCMP were contacted at 4PM, so more people were concerned about the situation.

 

[scrappinkat]

I don’t quite get why they wouldn’t have found another more private location. Which is why I think the van still wouldn’t start and they were just waiting it out until morning.

I had read that they had finally realized it was a cracked block that was causing the flooding issue, and someone, one of the passers-by who lived in Liard, had made arrangements for it to be towed into Liard Hot Springs the next day. Finding that article again may take a while though.

 

[MistyWaters]

As soon as they decided to stay the night rather than have the vehicle towed, they were camping. When this first happened, I was half expecting to hear that they had called a tow truck and that it was refused because tow drivers don't like to hook up after dark. It sounds like they planned to call the tow truck the following day.

The traditional definition of camping involves use of a tent. Which might be why owners of motorhomes don’t refer to themselves as going camping at all - they go RVing. I often notice truckers stopping overnight at rest stops and they’re obviously not camping either. Sleeping in a car with food in a cooler is much the same as sleeping in a van yet stopping overnight in a car is not considered camping.

However it’s generally accepted that campers camp in campgrounds.

 

[otto]

But you quoted a case of someone driving on the highway and getting shot. I do think you are exaggerating the risk. Criminal elements in the north are certainly there, but not all encompassing. Let's not exaggerate the risk of people pulling over to the side of the road. We shouldn't cause people to drive on when they have a problem, solely because they heard that there are "criminals that will likely attack them".

(And this is from someone who respects you and knows that you are incredibly bright and definitely knows much more technically than I do. )

Flattery will get you no where! Thank you. I did mention another random highway shooting where the victim was driving the car - point being that random shootings do happen on Canadian highways. Throughout the country people should be more concerned with hitting a deer, being tossed by a grizzly, floods, rock slides, and avalanches than criminals.

Pulling onto the shoulder is usually reserved for emergencies, pullouts for rest stop, campgrounds for overnight. Traffic is 140+ kph, passing vehicles would slow down if people were stopped on the side of the highway.

 

[srper2]

I think the discussion related to parking on the shoulder of a highway versus stopping at a rest stops or pullout. Rest stops are common along highways all over Canada and yes, sometimes people sleep overnight in their vehicles.

I’d feel comfortable sleeping at a rest stop because it’s a designated stopping spot. But just me, no, not spending the night on the shoulder of a highway unless my vehicle broke down because I also know vehicles parked on the shoulder are often assumed to be abandoned and become a target for robbery. The mindset really makes no sense but it’s the same as if someone comes across something discarded and they assume its free for rummaging through it, to take what they want. As for vehicles left on the side of the road, the owner comes back later upon arranging for a tow and finds it’s been broken into.

This is why I wonder if L&C stayed the night on the side of the highway because van repairs were required and into the evening hours, their best option was certainly to wait until morning.

I was replying to the statement that said people stopped hitchhiking and staying at stops in this area of Australia, which was incorrect.

 

[MistyWaters]

OMG I've been wondering when they left. Thanks for this, do you have a link? Do you know when the Prof left?

Now I could be wrong but that L&C left on the 13th has been mentioned several times on these threads. But nothing has reported in the media regarding LDs travel plans.

 

[srper2]

I agree. However, that does not change the fact that camping on the shoulder or at a highway pullout is unsafe and unlawful. It is considered unsafe for other traffic, particularly at dusk (reduced visibility), and because it is isolated (opportunistic crimes). That was the situation before the tourists were murdered in July. It is safety and crime prevention, not fear.

They had a good reason they were stuck there and had a plan for getting the van going, they were not deliberately doing something "illegal", The shoulder area is made at the sides of roads to allow vehicles to pull off safely out of the way of other traffic precisely for the reason of unexpected breakdowns and other incidents. What happened to them was in no way caused by them staying there overnight and was in no way their fault.