Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #18

[SovereignSnake]

The RCMP did not elaborate on the factors that led them to make that conclusion, but it was hinted at that it had something to do with the weapon of choice, and the caliber of the ammunition.

Which led me to believe that the same gun, same sort of ammo, was used for all three killings. My opinion.

Leonard Dyck's cause of death has still not been released. The only thing that has been stated is he was "brutally murdered." There's been no reports brought forth of his death being by gunfire.

 

[MistyWaters]

I understand those niceties. However, it would still be a matter of deliberation for the RCMP to try and ascertain exactly who shot whom.

Did Bryer shoot the three and Kam watched?

Did Kam shoot the three and Bryer watched?

Did Kam shoot Miss Deese and Bryer shoot Mr Fowler?

Did they both have a shot into each of the victims?

Which one shot Prof Dyck ? one, the other, or both?

Questions that , for the sake of laying the case down may never be answered , but I doubt that would stop the RCMP from trying every angle to get a consensus on those kind of questions.

That both would have taken the rap regardless of who did in fact murder whom is now void, since no trial will be held.

A well known defence strategy, each defendant blames each other hoping to create reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury as to who actually committed the murder. If the jury cannot agree on which of the two was responsible, both may be found Not Guilty.

This attempted tactic is best known, albeit unsuccessful, in the high profile Canadian murder trial of victim Tim Bosma. Also in an Alberta homicide trial of a son and his friend of 3 members of the Klaus family. In that case the two burnt the home down and the fire was so hot that no trace of the mother’s body was ever found, although the Crown was successful in their conviction for all 3 of the victims. Even though the evidence was very strong from the onset, it was 8 months before charges were laid while the RCMP gathered incriminating evidence against each of them.

So yes, it’s important for police to take time to process the possible scenario based on evidence. Proving two people were at a crime scene is not evidence both committed the homicides.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I understand those niceties. However, it would still be a matter of deliberation for the RCMP to try and ascertain exactly who shot whom.

Did Bryer shoot the three and Kam watched?

Did Kam shoot the three and Bryer watched?

Did Kam shoot Miss Deese and Bryer shoot Mr Fowler?

Did they both have a shot into each of the victims?

Which one shot Prof Dyck ? one, the other, or both?

Questions that , for the sake of laying the case down may never be answered , but I doubt that would stop the RCMP from trying every angle to get a consensus on those kind of questions.

That both would have taken the rap regardless of who did in fact murder whom is now void, since no trial will be held.

It doesn't matter who shot whom, and I doubt the RCMP will waste much time on that. In the trials of Dellen Millard and Mark Smich for the deaths of Laura Babcock, and separately, Tim Bosma, it was never determined who was the shooter, only that they acted together.

465 (1) Except where otherwise expressly provided by law, the following provisions apply in respect of conspiracy:

• (a) every one who conspires with any one to commit murder or to cause another person to be murdered, whether in Canada or not, is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to a maximum term of imprisonment for life;Criminal Code

 

[Jan424]

And not only that, but they had an unhealthily close and emotionally co-dependent friendship. Obviously they could relate to each other on many things.

I definitely don't think he was some kind of sociopathic mastermind though. Nobody's mask is that good. He looks genuinely friendly in all the photos of him. People specifically remembered him as being really kind and considerate.

My guess is that Kam actually had the opposite problem and was an emotionally over-sensitive person, and he got to a point where his emotions got the best of him, for whatever reason.

I don't know if burning the truck and camper was meant to send a message to his parents. I'm more inclined to think it was to destroy forensic evidence.

Yes absolutely they had a most unhealthy co-dependent relationship... safe to even say toxic.
I don’t think Kam was a sociopathic mastermind either, but he obviously kept everything that was simmering beneath his surface hidden quite well. We really only heard from what, a couple of friends and his dad? Wasn’t it his dad who described his son as kind and caring? I hadn’t quite heard those words from anyone else (could have missed it tho)...... a friend described him as funny and always down to hang out. And he’s been described as polite too. Aside from that, we know nothing. We don’t know whether he was on prescribed meds, whether he took illegal drugs, and so on (thinking out loud here). Sure, he does look friendly in his pictures, but there were a couple of Bryer where he looked friendly too. And IMO, Kam’s most genuine smile was in the IG picture with Bryer. I too hope eventually we get a better understanding of Kam.
I also lean towards the truck torching as an attempt to destroy evidence. All MOO.

 

[Zella]

BBM: I have seen this supposition a few times, and I just don't understand why anyone would assume that RCMP would honor a video request from an alleged triple murderer whom they had just spent three weeks searching for in a nationwide manhunt. It is basically saying "yeah, he was a horrible animal that killed these innocent people, but he doesn't want his dad to see this video, so let's make sure we honor his request". Does not seem likely to me. JMO

Yeah I don't think it has anything to do with Bryer specifically asking that his dad not see it. In fact, I'd sort of be surprised if that were the case.

I'm starting to suspect RCMP bitterly regrets letting anyone see the video now, considering the media firestorm that has resulted from it. The video is not even legally binding as a will apparently, so they had no obligation to show it to any of them. MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

Since the video itself belongs to his mother, she would have been the one to instruct the RCMP to inform Alan of this reality.

And one can see the mothers point of view. She has had to maintain a sort of co parenting arrangement with Alan under what appears to be grim circumstances, and now that the reason for that arrangement is no longer valid, ie the death of the child in question, she perhaps sees the contract as one that is well and truly over.

who knows? what is known, is she is the next of kin, she disperses the video as she sees fit, and she doesn't see any purpose in distributing it to Alan, and perhaps she suspects he would onsell it to the nearest newspaper for the biggest sum he could wangle and have it displayed across Fox news day and night for a week.


Maybe, just maybe, she doesn't want that outcome.

I merely put the point of view forward that it isn't always officialdom that withholds stuff. .

The video does not belong to BS's mother; BS's mother was only afforded an opportunity to view part of it, not possess it, and has no opportunity to distribute it. The video is in the control of the RCMP.

 

[MistyWaters]

It doesn't matter who shot whom, and I doubt the RCMP will waste much time on that. In the trials of Dellen Millard and Mark Smich for the deaths of Laura Babcock, and separately, Tim Bosma, it was never determined who was the shooter, only that they acted together.

465 (1) Except where otherwise expressly provided by law, the following provisions apply in respect of conspiracy:

• (a) every one who conspires with any one to commit murder or to cause another person to be murdered, whether in Canada or not, is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to a maximum term of imprisonment for life;Criminal Code

This discussion goes back quite a few pages on the topic of why were no charges filed for the murder of L&C, while the two were still being sought.

As both K&B chose to end their lives, I agree, the individual actions of each is not of great significance to the investigation now as it may never be known.

 

[Trooper]

Leonard Dyck's cause of death has still not been released. The only thing that has been stated is he was "brutally murdered." There's been no reports brought forth of his death being by gunfire.

His untimely death may not have been due to gunfire, which doesn't mean a gun wasn't fired at him, and bullets didn't invade his body.

There is no reason at all to suppose that the only manner of death these people suffered, taken by surprise, entirely unexpectedly was from gunfire.

There is no reason to believe that Kam and Bry didn't get right up close to their victims at some stage, and used other methods of inflicting deathly injury IN ADDITION to disabling gunfire.

There are a lot of factors which make up the category of 'brutally murdered' and it is significant that nothing was singled out AT THIS STAGE to label his death.

It isn't a matter of either /or, it's a matter of exactly what. Why would be a relief to know, but that is a very long odds bet of finding out.

 

[KR72]

I skimmed the CTV news and didn't see anything with AS's lawyer. Anyone else have any luck?

 

[Zella]

Wasn’t it his dad who described his son as kind and caring? I hadn’t quite heard those words from anyone else (could have missed it tho)...... a friend described him as funny and always down to hang out. And he’s been described as polite too.

SBM

I was watching a livestream of Canadian news on YouTube where the journalist said some coffee shop staff at a place he frequented called Kam "very considerate." I found that interesting wording from service staff, simply because I've been in the service industry and wouldn't even describe super nice/favorite customers as "very considerate." Polite? Yeah. Nice? Sure. But I found "very considerate" an interesting choice of words.

And there's been more than a couple of friends who have commented on Kam--more like several--though yes as a general rule they seem to focus more on him being friendly/likable than anything else. Each article seems to interview a different friend. LOL

MOO

 

[acutename]

I agree...I don't know why anyone would want to steal that van. Your own vehicle would have to be in pretty bad shape to make that van look appealing. But if vehicle theft was the original intent, that speaks to two perpetrators, since you wouldn't want to leave your original vehicle behind like a calling card.

(BTW...quick aside that just popped into my head but there had been speculation that Kam and Bryer had damaged their camper truck before burning it...could that have happened much earlier and thus the van WOULD look appealing? Seems far fetched I guess, but opening it up for some discussion...)

I think Lucas was shot outside or in the doorway of the van, responding to an attempt to enter, which is why he was shoe-less. I think Chynna was shot inside the van as she tried to get her shoes on and possibly scramble back into the rear of the van in terror after the first shot(s). That may be why she suffered a head wound and maybe why the back window appeared to be smashed (or shot) out from the inside.

I think the intent had been to take whatever was of value from the van (which partly seems to have happened) but the shooter(s) panicked and were scared of her body being in the van and dragged her outside and placed her near Lucas (approx 5 metres I think is what Trevor Pierre had said). That's why both seem to be laying in the same direction, with their heads turned the same way. They then grabbed whatever visible cash and id they could find and hightailed it out of there.
JMO

how long do you think it took to search through that van at night (after 11:30pm) ...with what? flashlights? Were the van's interior lights working? some how I imagine them not working, but I could be totally wrong. Possibly they had some of CD's and LF's property with them later which would tie them to the scene, though CD's brother said most of the possessions were left in the van.

 

[Esprite]

There is ample provision in the Westminster system, of which Canada is a part , to object and dissent from any conclusions reached, and this would be done thru the mechanism of civil law. That is, a member of , say, the McLeod family took umbrage at the final conclusions, they have the option to go thru the courts to have that rectified, or /and re visited.

Another way, a member of Parliament could instigate a Parliamentary review, based on solid ground for dissent, ..

Or, even a Royal Commission could be called for, where by Uncle Tom Cobbley and all are hauled into Parliament before a committee and grilled over hot coals by senators and Members of Parliament , etc.

It isn't a dead end, the RCMP report, assuming the Westminster apparatus is operative, there are avenues of objection and re hearing.

There is in fact a RCMP watchdog, the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the RCMP, an independent agency, which is not part of the RCMP. The Commission ensures that public complaints made about the conduct of RCMP members are examined fairly and impartially.

 

[SnooperDuper]

A well known defence strategy, each defendant blames each other hoping to create reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury as to who actually committed the murder. If the jury cannot agree on which of the two was responsible, both may be found Not Guilty.

No, that is a common misconception that the actual murderer out of two people has to be known or both will be found not guilty. As long as both participate in the planning and execution of the crime, e.g., one is shooter and one is lookout, it does not matter who pulled the trigger for both to be found guilty. Case in point: Tim Bosma murder (Millard, Smich).

 

[Trooper]

No, that is a common misconception that the actual murderer out of two people has to be known or both will be found not guilty. As long as both participate in the planning and execution of the crime, e.g., one is shooter and one is lookout, it does not matter who pulled the trigger for both to be found guilty. Case in point: Tim Bosma murder (Millard, Smich).

on the other hand, both Millard, and Smich were alive and up for testifying at their trial, which, obviously, Kam and Bry are not, and perhaps this is the difference.

Smich and Millard could be charged as conspiratorial, dual murderers, as eventually the Crown proved both had participated in the planning and execution.

This would be difficult to prove in regard to Bry and Kam as neither can testify as to intention, or apportion responsibility for each act.

What an odd pair Millard and Smich were. Are their parallels in their relationship with Kam and Bry? . possibly.....

 

[Optics]

SBM

I was watching a livestream of Canadian news on YouTube where the journalist said some coffee shop staff at a place he frequented called Kam "very considerate." I found that interesting wording from service staff, simply because I've been in the service industry and wouldn't even describe super nice/favorite customers as "very considerate." Polite? Yeah. Nice? Sure. But I found "very considerate" an interesting choice of words.

And there's been more than a couple of friends who have commented on Kam--more like several--though yes as a general rule they seem to focus more on him being friendly/likable than anything else. Each article seems to interview a different friend. LOL

MOO

LOL and that is the reason someone invented the phrase "kill them with kindness"

 

[MistyWaters]

SBM

I was watching a livestream of Canadian news on YouTube where the journalist said some coffee shop staff at a place he frequented called Kam "very considerate." I found that interesting wording from service staff, simply because I've been in the service industry and wouldn't even describe super nice/favorite customers as "very considerate." Polite? Yeah. Nice? Sure. But I found "very considerate" an interesting choice of words.

And there's been more than a couple of friends who have commented on Kam--more like several--though yes as a general rule they seem to focus more on him being friendly/likable than anything else. Each article seems to interview a different friend. LOL

MOO

I think out of respect for the all the Port Alberni families, local people who speak to the media are often inclined to either say nothing or say as little as possible in a mildly positive way. In a tragedy such as this, it’s not helpful to the families horrible grief they’re suddenly forced to deal with if local people yap to the media telling the world how poorly everyone thought of their children prior to July 12th. Smaller places have a way of connecting to help their own heal. I admire their silence. It seems to be the sort of place where people respect one another.

BBM

Mayor of Port Alberni, home of murder suspects, urges patience and understanding
“It has been a difficult few weeks for the community,” Minions said. “From the teens being missing to it being released they are suspects, the search, and now this part of the conclusion. This is definitely not what we had hoped for in terms of an outcome. A lot of people in the community have struggled with how to handle the news.”

She said there is concern for the local relatives of McLeod and Schmegelsky, the families of the victims and the impact the ordeal has had on people and communities across Canada.....”

 

[MistyWaters]

on the other hand, both Millard, and Smich were alive and up for testifying at their trial, which, obviously, Kam and Bry are not, and perhaps this is the difference.

Smich and Millard could be charged as conspiratorial, dual murderers, as eventually the Crown proved both had participated in the planning and execution.

This would be difficult to prove in regard to Bry and Kam as neither can testify as to intention, or apportion responsibility for each act.

What an odd pair Millard and Smich were. Are their parallels in their relationship with Kam and Bry? . possibly.....

Now that you mention it, Millard and Smich are perfect example of a male duo who had no reason to murder. Until the evidence was heard during the trial of TB, Millard appeared to be a “good boy” who was set up, particularly according to his mother.

 

[Trooper]

Now that you mention it, Millard and Smich are perfect example of a male duo who had no reason to murder. Until the evidence was heard during the trial of TB, Millard appeared to be a “good boy” who was set up, particularly according to his mother.

Mothers!...

they didn't have much reason to steal either. . I recall that case, even here in Sydney, NSW, it made a ripple. Even though they didn't testify, that was a choice they had, which Bry and Kam do not have, since they chose another route altogether.

They were a strange pair, with nothing on the surface that seemed to explain their deep attachment .

 

[Zella]

I think out of respect for the all the Port Alberni families, local people who speak to the media are often inclined to either say nothing or say as little as possible in a mildly positive way. In a tragedy such as this, it’s not helpful to the families horrible grief they’re suddenly forced to deal with if local people yap to the media telling the world how poorly everyone thought of their children prior to July 12th. Smaller places have a way of connecting to help their own heal. I admire their silence. It seems to be the sort of place where people respect one another.

BBM

Mayor of Port Alberni, home of murder suspects, urges patience and understanding
“It has been a difficult few weeks for the community,” Minions said. “From the teens being missing to it being released they are suspects, the search, and now this part of the conclusion. This is definitely not what we had hoped for in terms of an outcome. A lot of people in the community have struggled with how to handle the news.”

She said there is concern for the local relatives of McLeod and Schmegelsky, the families of the victims and the impact the ordeal has had on people and communities across Canada.....”

I get that about small towns--I live in a town much smaller than Port Alberni, actually. But the small-town vibe of Port Alberni hasn't stopped people from talking negatively about Bryer.

 

[MistyWaters]

No, that is a common misconception that the actual murderer out of two people has to be known or both will be found not guilty. As long as both participate in the planning and execution of the crime, e.g., one is shooter and one is lookout, it does not matter who pulled the trigger for both to be found guilty. Case in point: Tim Bosma murder (Millard, Smich).

Planning = premeditation. As the two were originally charged with 2nd degree murder of LD, we don’t know if there’s evidence the other two murders were premeditated.

Otherwise it’s just not true that anyone present is guilty of the same murder charge regardless of their participation in the assault. This is why it takes time for police to lay charges, to determine the involvement of each suspect.

ETA - one murder, a swarming outside a nightclub - 4 defendants. The outcome - 1st degree, 2nd degree, manslaughter conviction for 3 of them and the 4th was acquitted.
Murder trial begins for Calgary man accused of killing a teenager outside a Beltline nightclub