Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #21

[Schmoosh]

I get that, and that's what I'm saying isn't that unusual: finding the suspected gun with the suspects is probably the norm.

I think that finding casings with the same identifying markings at two different crime scenes links the scenes. And it's reasonable, in my view, to pursue the investigation as though the 2 crimes were committed by the same person. It is not conclusive evidence, it is an investigative theory that LE pursues.

The next thing to do is find the gun that fired the bullets. I would think it's probably the case (unless the gun has been ditched) to find the gun with the suspects. When the gun is found they do ballistics to see if the bullets found at the scenes were fired by that gun.

The identifying markings are different from ballistics. Identifying markings are imprinted into the bullet casings by the manufacturer. Ballistics is the unique signature that is made on a bullet by passing trough a particular gun. That can only be done when a gun is recovered.

Exactly.

 

[ktm44]

Do they actually know for sure that Bryer built the rifle himself though? Or is it just a guess? Because I've heard these type of older rifles are fairly prevalent, usually are made up of different parts, and can be purchased cheaply for $200 or so. And I've also heard that if you're building a gun from different parts, you have to know what you're doing or it will explode in your face. With how much these guys failed at life in general, I can't really imagine Bryer successfully building a gun that actually worked.

I had actually composed a post to flesh out your comments. Many people who purchase new firearms make changes (different triggers comes to mind) and I believe some of those really old SKS's were literally found in crates at one point and sold very cheap and some could have changed hands numerous times with new owners requiring modification or repairs.

I'm old enough to predate Canadian gun laws and remember when those old SKS's were actually sold in some army surplus stores.

The police seem to have some reason to believe that Breyer built it and it it's not really a hard thing to do. I didn't read anything in the police report that indicated they felt Breyer had built it and only that it had multiple serial numbers. I would suggest that if someone like AS, asked police about it, they would have been offered possibilites (stolen, home built, private sale as it is, black market purchase).

It's unlikely further details would be released nor do I feel there is any need for the public to know more but I would personally be interested in knowing more about the firing pin serial number and I would strongly suggest that the RCMP have researched it carefully.

Something that struck me as interesting in the police report was the ammo was manufactured in 1975. It's not uncommon to see reloaders using older casings but I wouldn't expect a store to be selling ammo that old.

 

[sandbar]

police secrecy did more harm than good. It fueled a lot of speculation and wild conspiracy theories.

sbm

It's REALLY hard to explain culture...

"Police secrecy" didn't start wild conspiracy theories. Restless people who are caught up in the thrill of immediacy, and the sounds of their own voices started the rumours...

 

[Betty P]

I'm not missing concepts. They weren't charged with L & C's deaths while still alive. Period. Had they had enough to do so, they would have. But they couldn't until after they were found dead with their video confessions and analysing the firearms.

Arresting and charging someone are two different things. You can arrest someone and not charge them, but I'm not sure what "arrest" has to do with this case anyway.

Correct, they hadn't charged them by the time they found their bodies, but they had enough ballistics and other evidence to name them as suspects. This gave them "probable cause" which allowed RCMP to get search warrants, etc. necessary to gather more information and evidence in order to apprehend them.

The killers already had quite a head start by the time RCMP discovered they were linked to all 3 murders. Autopsies and evidence testing were still incomplete by the time they reached Manitoba, IIRC. Preliminary autopsy results for Mr Dyck weren't ready until the 23rd, the same day the killers were spotted in Gillam.

JMO, it was surprising to see they still had so much ammo at the end. Everyone was speculating about why the killings stopped, assuming they had run out of ammo.

Question for any locals here: Was their plan to make their way to Hudson Bay and commandeer a boat or ship to go elsewhere realistic? Of course their plan to go down the Nelson River was ill conceived, but is there much ship traffic in the Hudson Bay? It doesn't look like it. They would have needed to go to the Port of Churchill

MarineTraffic: Global Ship Tracking Intelligence | AIS Marine Traffic

 

[FactFinder3000]

Here's some information on the process that must be followed. It's a judgement call on when to lay charges. They want to have enough evidence to be sure of a conviction, but a lack of charges does not mean they don't have solid evidence.

Laying Charges - Province of British Columbia

 

[CinNC]

I'm not sure I believe that there were no indications of a motive, group affiliation, or promotion of a hate agenda on the videos.

With all due respect to RCMP, to say that there was NO INDICATION of any agenda, and then to say that they won't release videos for fear of copycats is a dichotomy of entities.

If there was nothing to "copy", why withhold videos out of fear of copycats? This is a rhetorical question at this point, and I accept and respect RCMP's decision. I also respect their withholding the videos out of respect to the families of Chynna, Lucas, and Leonard.

MOO

 

[CinNC]

Really!!! Could I refer you to the RCMP Report:

"On July 17, 2019, at approximately 11:40 p.m., a witness was driving westbound on Alaska Highway and pulled off the road into a pullout to take a nap. This was located approximately 30 minutes west from Haines Junction Petro Canada and 2 hours 10 minutes west of Whitehorse. Within 5 minutes of being parked, a truck with camper drove past him and stopped about 50 yards ahead. An unknown male got out of the passenger side of the truck holding a long gun. The male walked towards the tree line and started moving towards the witness in a tactical or hunting stance. The truck also started driving slowly towards the witness. The witness drove away from the armed male and drove past the truck. The driver covered his face with his hand and the witness was not able to see the driver’s face."

RCMP in British Columbia - Overview of Fort Nelson and Dease Lake Homicide Investigation

As I said, the Australian journalist stated that the witness covered his face as he drove past the truck. The exact opposite was true; the driver of the camper (presumably KM) hid his face from the purported witness.

 

[Schmoosh]

Correct, they hadn't charged them by the time they found their bodies, but they had enough ballistics and other evidence to name them as suspects. This gave them "probable cause" which allowed RCMP to get search warrants, etc. necessary to gather more information and evidence in order to apprehend them.

The killers already had quite a head start by the time RCMP discovered they were linked to all 3 murders. Autopsies and evidence testing were still incomplete by the time they reached Manitoba, IIRC. Preliminary autopsy results for Mr Dyck weren't ready until the 23rd, the same day the killers were spotted in Gillam.

JMO, it was surprising to see they still had so much ammo at the end. Everyone was speculating about why the killings stopped, assuming they had run out of ammo.

Question for any locals here: Was their plan to make their way to Hudson Bay and commandeer a boat or ship to go elsewhere realistic? Of course their plan to go down the Nelson River was ill conceived, but is there much ship traffic in the Hudson Bay? It doesn't look like it. They would have needed to go to the Port of Churchill

MarineTraffic: Global Ship Tracking Intelligence | AIS Marine Traffic

Port of Churchill operations ceased in August 2016 and started up again in July of this year, mostly to supply northern communities with goods, and a couple of grain ships have been loaded.

Pic: Blog – Port of Churchill

 

[NJSleuth91]

I realize that. However, the vast majority of criminals are not romanticized. That's why you can go to true crime podcasts and read page after page of entries and not recognize a single crime. That's why people in Colorado (on this very forum) are a bit surprised that no one has heard of Kelsey Berreth or why people in Dallas are surprised that no one outside their area knows (or cares) who Amber Guyger is.

Robin Hood (a particular favorite of mine) was romanticized in a certain way, and Bugsy Siegel was one of the earliest of 20th century criminals (along with Al Capone) to be romanticized (along with the entire mafia). But in general, people cannot name the most heinous psychosexual killers unless they are also serial killers (and it helps if they are from the 70's or 80's). Crime bosses are still regarded with some sort of reverence (if judged by some funerals and public events), but I think the social function of Robin Hood and organized crime is different than what we see with serial killers.

If people here on WS (who are the only people I can find on the internet who are today discussing these reports in any detail) are romanticizing killers, then that's a subcultural phenom that I find really strange (and see very little evidence of). It takes a much larger group to "romanticize" something. I suppose that an individual can become positively obsessed with Kam or Bryer but that doesn't mean "romanticization" to me. Romanticization, to me, is when a culture presents something as more perfected or desirable than it actually is. Perhaps within a small group of gamers, somewhere, they are being romanticized (but I'm not yet seeing evidence of that in gaming forums, nor did forums devoted to the games they played even pay much attention to this crime spree).

It's here on WS that we pay attention. So, if you think that this kind of attention romanticizes crime, then every one of us is part of that process. I do not accept that as an explanation for what we're doing here, and I don't see any evidence of it. However, if that's what ends up happening due to sites like Websleuths, I'm going to give it a lot of thought.

Anyway, I don't think a popular movie will be made about these two (it's too repetitive and redundant, that entire genre of film is hard to sell because it's overdone by now). Some ratty made-for-streaming movie might appear. A Netflix documentary or something (I doubt it though, information is too scant, they are also not appealing enough).

I'm curious though, does anyone think that crime documentaries "romanticize" criminals? Did "Making of a Murderer" romanticize the potential killers? And do books on true crime do this as well? Did Ann Rule romanticize Ted Bundy? Ann's work put fear into me, as I was stupidly ignoring any risk whatsoever associated with getting to know strangers, in my youth. I don't recall anything but grim horror at Bundy and was shocked when women penned him admiring mails. Do men romanticize such people in the same way? WS seems to have more women than men, so it makes me curious.

(I used to romanticize Northern Canada a whole lot...but this case definitely punctured that balloon...)

I regret to inform you that there are, in fact, fanpages on social media romanticizing Kam and Bryer.

But I don't think speculation on their motives, psychopathology, life circumstances, friendship dynamic, what went wrong with them, nature vs nurture, what happened, what they were thinking, could this have been prevented, etc. counts as romanticization. I think most of us are trying to understand what went wrong and how the next Kam and Bryer can be stopped.

And clearly the police agree with that goal because they even talked in the report about factors that lead to copycat killings, which indicates they think there are steps we can take to stop people from turning to violence.

 

[Betty P]

I'm curious though, does anyone think that crime documentaries "romanticize" criminals? Did "Making of a Murderer" romanticize the potential killers? And do books on true crime do this as well? Did Ann Rule romanticize Ted Bundy?

Personally, no. They terrify me as well. Like a lot of people here, I'd like to use what we learn to prevent the develpment of these kinds of killers or at least help innocent people learn healthy ways to keep from becoming a victim. Like not napping in your vehicle by the side of a road. I'll admit, if I were in the situation of being alone on a long trip and overcome with fatigue, I would have considered it as a last resort. No more. Not even in a parking lot at a rest stop or camping area or other public place, unless there's 24 hr security on site.

That said, some people do romanticize killers, but I think they're a minority. Had to laugh at some of the responses when, for some reason, Ted Bundy began trending on Twitter recently, due to a rerun of some movie about him. The vast majority of tweets were "Oh, heck no. Don't make Bundy trend on Twitter" people chastising anyone who would romanticize him.

 

[Satchie]

I agree with the first part.

As for the second part, the RCMP itself said for weeks that they were still working hard trying to put information to a judge to get them charged in L & C's murder, so that is in contrast to your claim that they "did the minimum necessary".

I think that's a misunderstanding. They don't lay charges against dead people. The only reason to lay charges is to justify arresting them and keeping them in jail, pending a trial.

The charges against them in Dr. Dyck's death were withdrawn.

"When RCMP confirm that the bodies are those of McLeod and Schmegelsky, the charges against them in Dyck’s murder will be discontinued, British Columbia Prosecution Service spokesperson Dan McLaughlin said. “This will end the prosecution and the involvement of the BCPS,” he told local media."
Canada manhunt: police are 'confident' two bodies found are fugitives

Police have focussed on writing this complete report in order to wrap up the case and put it to bed. They definitely fast-tracked it because of public interest. I wonder whether the CBC stories about questions sent to the Prime Minister's Office encouraged them to just publish what they had and not wait on any more lingering details, like date of death.

If they had been arrested, they would have faced charges eventually in the deaths of Lucas and Chynna, but it wouldn't have been a rush to do that, either. It takes years for murders to come to trial in BC. Police focus their initial efforts on collecting exhaustive forensic evidence while the crime scene is fresh, and getting the suspects arrested. Then the case usually goes into the back of the queue while detectives prioritize other, urgent crimes.

 

[Betty P]

There's also a bureaucratic explanation, which isn't trivial. Compiling a charging document and getting a judge to drop whatever they're doing in order to read, consider and approve it is no small matter. BC RCMP only needed to charge them with one murder in order to trigger the manhunt, and issue a warning that they were armed and dangerous. RCMP had the video evidence of the suspects in what was probably Dr. Dyck's car, in Saskatchewan, and that was an easy piece of evidence to put before the judge, it didn't require forensic experts to sign off on their conclusions, lengthy consideration by the judge of complicated evidence, etc.

They did the minimum necessary because time was of the essence and this wasn't the situation to be perfectionistic. When you're fighting a fire, you don't waste everyone's time by bringing in the fire reconstruction experts, insurance adjusters, renovation contactors, etc. You focus on putting the fire out.

Agree. Ballistics, DNA analysis, etc. are great tools for putting people in prison, but when you're in the midst of a manhunt, LE has to rely on getting enough quick evidence to go before a judge for search warrants. Getting access to cell phone, internet, credit card, motor vehicle, social media, etc. records helps, as well as grabbing and analyzing all the security cam video people send in.

 

[Runningforthewind]

Is it possible that someone else could have lit the truck on fire because something smells with the time line.

The truck was reported fifty kilometres south of Dease Lake at 719 am burning yet they were spotted at 11:38 am in Kitwanga, BC thesame day. It's 6 hours and forty minutes to get from deese lake to Kitwanga. Take thirty minutes off to account for the distance it'd take to get from Deese Lake to where the truck was found. That's just over six hours to get there. But yet they magically made it to Kitwanga in four hours. So something stinks.

 

[Schmoosh]

I think that's a misunderstanding. They don't lay charges against dead people. The only reason to lay charges is to justify arresting them and keeping them in jail, pending a trial.

The charges against them in Dr. Dyck's death were withdrawn.

"When RCMP confirm that the bodies are those of McLeod and Schmegelsky, the charges against them in Dyck’s murder will be discontinued, British Columbia Prosecution Service spokesperson Dan McLaughlin said. “This will end the prosecution and the involvement of the BCPS,” he told local media."
Canada manhunt: police are 'confident' two bodies found are fugitives

Police have focussed on writing this complete report in order to wrap up the case and put it to bed. They definitely fast-tracked it because of public interest. I wonder whether the CBC stories about questions sent to the Prime Minister's Office encouraged them to just publish what they had and not wait on any more lingering details, like date of death.

If they had been arrested, they would have faced charges eventually in the deaths of Lucas and Chynna, but it wouldn't have been a rush to do that, either. It takes years for murders to come to trial in BC. Police focus their initial efforts on collecting exhaustive forensic evidence while the crime scene is fresh, and getting the suspects arrested. Then the case usually goes into the back of the queue while detectives prioritize other, urgent crimes.

I'm well aware of all of this, but I'm sure it's helpful to others so thank you for posting it.

 

[Betty P]

I'm not sure I believe that there were no indications of a motive, group affiliation, or promotion of a hate agenda on the videos.

With all due respect to RCMP, to say that there was NO INDICATION of any agenda, and then to say that they won't release videos for fear of copycats is a dichotomy of entities.

If there was nothing to "copy", why withhold videos out of fear of copycats? This is a rhetorical question at this point, and I accept and respect RCMP's decision. I also respect their withholding the videos out of respect to the families of Chynna, Lucas, and Leonard.

MOO

RCMP hinted at some problems with the videos. They don't need to nor should they be asked to say or do more. JMO

The RCMP Behavioural Analysis Unit (BAU) conducted a review of the videos of McLeod and Schmegelsky. BAU was concerned with a behaviour called "identification", which is considered a "warning behaviour" in the context of threat assessment. In that, the videos may influence or inspire other individuals to carry out a targeted act of violence, essentially creating copycat killers. In BAU's experience, those who commit mass casualty attacks are heavily inspired by previous attackers and their behaviours.

The BAU consulted with Dr. Reid Meloy, a forensic psychologist and a world leading expert in threat assessment and he agreed that the videos should not be released. His and others research has shown that those individuals who commit mass casualty attacks are often heavily inspired by previous attackers and their behaviours.

 

[Satchie]

This just isn't how it works, though. They don't charge somebody the second they have enough evidence to charge them. Absence of charges does not prove they don't have enough evidence to charge, it can simply mean they're not done yet.

In BC charges must be approved by Crown prosecutors. The better your case, the more likely you are to have those charges approved.

I also tend to forget the crucial role of Crown prosecutors, I think there's constant liaison between detectives and prosecution: the lawyers are a second layer of scrutiny about whether the police evidence is adequate or sufficient.

There are now also Charter of Rights and Freedoms considerations, that the prosecutors are advising police on. If police are too eager and hasty to lay charges, a suspect can claim police were prejudiced , and potentially get off a guilty verdict by appealing. This is a very complicated chess game that police and prosecution are playing, with many potential moves mapped out in advance, and a willingness to sacrifice their pieces in order to checkmate.

 

[Valiant]

how would a red and grey dodge even maybe be mistaken for a white gmc?

In the dark, the silver could be mistaken for white.
And older trucks all tended to be very blocky and sqaured off, the styling was similar. The stacked lights on the Dodge (headlight over large turn signal) could look like the stacked square headlights on an older GMC. Depending on how much ambient light there was, and how much time he had to look at he truck it could be an easy mistake to make.

 

[ktm44]

Bullet markings to link the two crimes to each other? Agreed. To link the crimes to specific perps? It depends on when the police knew the perps had SKS firearms. The person who came forward to police made them believe for the first time that they were capable of killing. I wonder if it was the sales person at Cabela's.

I suspect not. If the salesperson had any suspicion that Kam had any plans on using the firearms to harm humans, the salesperson would have been required by law, refuse to sell the firearm and lock it back up immediately. If the store was found to be not compliant with Canadian laws, the employee and store would have been subject to serious consequences.

Ironically, I was with a friend who was intending to make a purchase at a local gun shop and had walked in discussing a recent news event regarding a homeowner protecting his property with a firearm and a salesperson approached me and advised me that he could not show even me any firearms because of an offhand comment I made on firearms for self defence.

I wasn't shopping so it had no effect on any purchase but it does give you an idea of how stringent sporting goods stores adhere to the rules.

 

[Schmoosh]

I also tend to forget the crucial role of Crown prosecutors, I think there's constant liaison between detectives and prosecution: the lawyers are a second layer of scrutiny about whether the police evidence is adequate or sufficient.

There are now also Charter of Rights and Freedoms considerations, that the prosecutors are advising police on. If police are too eager and hasty to lay charges, a suspect can claim police were prejudiced , and potentially get off a guilty verdict by appealing. This is a very complicated chess game that police and prosecution are playing, with many potential moves mapped out in advance, and a willingness to sacrifice their pieces in order to checkmate.

Not to mention that the perps were relatively young and these types of crimes are still very rare in Canada. Compared to the States where it's almost every day that yet another barely-old-enough-to-shave idiot decides to go on a killing spree. I'm sure the RCMP were, along with the rest of us, trying to figure out just exactly what we were dealing with here. I'm really glad their BAU was involved and brought in a world-class expert. Once they figured it out, they went all-out in historic fashion trying to find these guys.

 

[Schmoosh]

I suspect not. If the salesperson had any suspicion that Kam had any plans on using the firearms to harm humans, the salesperson would have been required by law, refuse to sell the firearm and lock it back up immediately. If the store was found to be not compliant with Canadian laws, the employee and store would have been subject to serious consequences.

Ironically, I was with a friend who was intending to make a purchase at a local gun shop and had walked in discussing a recent news event regarding a homeowner protecting his property with a firearm and a salesperson approached me and advised me that he could not show even me any firearms because of an offhand comment I made on firearms for self defence.

I wasn't shopping so it had no effect on any purchase but it does give you an idea of how stringent sporting goods stores adhere to the rules.

Excellent point and story that totally blows my idea out of the water. Wish I'd thought that through a bit before posting it.