Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #23

[DarkSkink]

well. how , precisely. And who does the educating of parents. Who, precisely , has discovered the reason why these young men do this? you obviously know who has discovered it, and exactly what they have discovered yet are strangely reluctant to share that info. I wont tell anyone, I promise.

Who discovered their motivations? The officers that watched the video.

 

[DarkSkink]

And how come I have never heard of this preventative? . I am not living in a cave. I have access to information. But I've never heard of anyone who has figured out ( a) the first warning sign, or even the 10th, and (b) where to obtain the education necessary to prevent these random acts of psychopathic societal carnage.

How come this information didn't sift up to Vancouver Island? it's not as if that's the end of the world , educationally speaking.. au contraire, Canadian psychological and criminal education is top ranked stuff.

Um, if you go back to a couple of your previous posts, you list what you think are warning signs. You're arguing against your own points now.

 

[DarkSkink]

At the end of the day, this is Websleuth. It is OK to want to know more details/facts just because we are curious/ want to discuss the case in more depth or understand more (whatever each of us want to understand). There doesn't need to be a why. It's a discussion forum about crimes.

Maybe there will be more info coming out, maybe there won't. It's up to RCMP and it's perfectly fine like that. But we can still wish we knew more. Or be happy with what we have. It's all good guys.

It's just debate. Curt words or strong personalities are allowed.

The RCMP should not have the discretion to withhold information from the public.

For example, there have been allegations of police involvement in the Highway of Tears disappearances. Valid allegations or not, we should be wary of the police telling us that these two confessed to some murders in the same area. "Take our word for it."

 

[poupetty77]

The RCMP should not have the discretion to withhold information from the public.

I do agree with that. I do believe in transparency when it comes to LE. And I do hope we'll learn more. But some don't and it's OK. JMO

 

[Trooper]

Um, if you go back to a couple of your previous posts, you list what you think are warning signs. You're arguing against your own points now.

You seem to get a bit bogged down on that phrase,, 'arguing your own point's.' I suspect that is because you have no way of backing your points up, which is a shame, I thought you really might be about to reveal information of some use..

But really, you are taking the position that someone ELSE is to blame for these nice young men being compelled to go out and shoot random strangers, due to not being supervised enough and being allowed to play GTA and ditz around in the woods , firing off pretend guns, and 'camping out' and strutting around with Nazi armbands on, .. its an old story. Nothing new there.

In fact, these were one nearly 19 yr old and one 19 yr old, not children, and they were of a psychopathic nature.

AS and Mr McLeod were nothing if not genuine when they said their kids were nice boys, caring boys, and all that stuff, because they had been mirrored to most of the K and B ' lives.. That's how psychopaths are. That's what they do. They copy human behavior, like when to frown, when to laugh , when to look 'sympathetic', the usual stuff, and this is why parents , in particular are going to miss the signs. Everytime.

If you recall, the last phone call either parent got, the fathers noticed NOTHING WRONG!. they were still their lovely boys off on an adventure, yet, we know that by that time they were double killers, and one of their victims was a woman, and they arranged those victims bodies in a particular way, as a sign back to people. And now those parents know just how much they never knew. They were speaking to killers, and they never knew.

But the parents had , as is the usual way of psychopaths, no signs at all !

Which makes your proposition that parents should be aware one of real difficulty, and hardly a feasible position to take.

 

[DarkSkink]

Who discovered their motivations? The officers that watched the video.

In fact, how can police on one hand say that they don't know the motivation, but on the other hand they are worried about copycats copying the motivation?

 

[Trooper]

Who discovered their motivations? The officers that watched the video.

No officer of the RCMP has divulged a motive. On the contrary, Inspector Hacket clearly stated, not once, but a few times, that they could not discern any motive, neither K, nor B voiced any motive, nor wrote any motive, nor conveyed in sign language or by pigeon post, anything that could be remotely conceived as motive for these repulsive murders.

If you have a link that clearly contradicts my claim there, I'll happily shoot off an email to Inspector Hacket of the RCMP of an admonitory nature for stating otherwise.

 

[DarkSkink]

You seem to get a bit bogged down on that phrase,, 'arguing your own point's.' I suspect that is because you have no way of backing your points up, which is a shame, I thought you really might be about to reveal information of some use..

But really, you are taking the position that someone ELSE is to blame for these nice young men being compelled to go out and shoot random strangers, due to not being supervised enough and being allowed to play GTA and ditz around in the woods , firing off pretend guns, and 'camping out' and strutting around with Nazi armbands on, .. its an old story. Nothing new there.

In fact, these were one nearly 19 yr old and one 19 yr old, not children, and they were of a psychopathic nature.

AS and Mr McLeod were nothing if not genuine when they said their kids were nice boys, caring boys, and all that stuff, because they had been mirrored to most of the K and B ' lives.. That's how psychopaths are. That's what they do. They copy human behavior, like when to frown, when to laugh , when to look 'sympathetic', the usual stuff, and this is why parents , in particular are going to miss the signs. Everytime.

If you recall, the last phone call either parent got, the fathers noticed NOTHING WRONG!. they were still their lovely boys off on an adventure, yet, we know that by that time they were double killers, and one of their victims was a woman, and they arranged those victims bodies in a particular way, as a sign back to people. And now those parents know just how much they never knew. They were speaking to killers, and they never knew.

But the parents had , as is the usual way of psychopaths, no signs at all !

Which makes your proposition that parents should be aware one of real difficulty, and hardly a feasible position to take.

Ho boy. Where to start.

I can copy/paste a cute arrangement of you saying there are no warning signs, and then listing warning signs, and also questioning how could people possibly be educated about warning signs, and then list more warning signs, proving that you have been educated in warning signs. That's too fish in a barrel for me to bother though.

There are many, many parents that see warning signs, and intervene. There are many parents that don't want to even let it get to the warning sign stage, and take care to be involved enough to raise a happy and healthy child.

If there was a motivation or trigger that is mentioned on that video, people should be made aware.

 

[Trooper]

I am to take it , then, that the RCMP officers who viewed the video left by K and B were the ones to discover the 'motive' ( I mean, this is a huge huge step in psychoanalysis, and psychology , not to mention the DSSM, its ground breaking stuff if they have figured out the motive ) and therefore, following the logic proposed, those officers are to do the teaching of parents who may be currently not supervising their 18 and 19 yr old male offspring and allowing them to play GTA. And who have noticed 'signs'. Of a mysterious nature.

I'm not buying that for one nanosecond.

 

[Trooper]

Ho boy. Where to start.

I can copy/paste a cute arrangement of you saying there are no warning signs, and then listing warning signs, and also questioning how could people possibly be educated about warning signs, and then list more warning signs, proving that you have been educated in warning signs. That's too fish in a barrel for me to bother though.

There are many, many parents that see warning signs, and intervene. There are many parents that don't want to even let it get to the warning sign stage, and take care to be involved enough to raise a happy and healthy child.

If there was a motivation or trigger that is mentioned on that video, people should be made aware.

uhoh.. now it's IF there was a motivation , or trigger.. ok. I thought you claimed there WAS a motive discerned, by , no less, the officers who viewed it..

ok. so this is an IF game.

 

[katydid23]

If we know everything already, what needs to be withheld?

Plenty is being withheld, thank goodness.

Whatever else is on those videos, for example. There is no reason to release those images to the public because they would be much like the Columbine pix, or the Boston Bombers, whose images were placed on the cover of the Rolling Stone, looking like freakin Rock Stars.

 

[DarkSkink]

No officer of the RCMP has divulged a motive. On the contrary, Inspector Hacket clearly stated, not once, but a few times, that they could not discern any motive, neither K, nor B voiced any motive, nor wrote any motive, nor conveyed in sign language or by pigeon post, anything that could be remotely conceived as motive for these repulsive murders.

If you have a link that clearly contradicts my claim there, I'll happily shoot off an email to Inspector Hacket of the RCMP of an admonitory nature for stating otherwise.

What would inspire copycats then?

Video of them eating pork chops and being bitten by bugs?

Police can be tecnically truthful in saying they don't know the motive, even though they are aware of some of the inspiration.

Back to the hypothetical, if K and B say that is was just like playing GTA for real, that doesn't mean that was the motive, but it is information that might inspire others to do so, and information parents should have.

 

[DarkSkink]

Plenty is being withheld, thank goodness.

Whatever else is on those videos, for example. There is no reason to release those images to the public because they would be much like the Columbine pix, or the Boston Bombers, whose images were placed on the cover of the Rolling Stone, looking like freakin Rock Stars.


View attachment 210029

True, but then again, there haven't been copycat marathon bombings.

The public was allowed to discuss everything freely, including how repulsive it is to glamorize them.

 

[DarkSkink]

uhoh.. now it's IF there was a motivation , or trigger.. ok. I thought you claimed there WAS a motive discerned, by , no less, the officers who viewed it..

ok. so this is an IF game.

'If' we take police at their word, then there is something in those videos that would inspire others.

What should the public be on the lookout for then?

 

[katydid23]

That's all it might take to prevent a copycat. A little more supervision. A little more involvement. A little more interaction. A little more interest in your child.

The more information one has, the better equipped they are to prevent something negative.

Let's say, hypothetically, K and B did post something online in a private forum. Let's say a copycat killer strikes because of that information. If that information is the same information the police are withholding, do you sue them for withholding it if one of the victims is your family member?

As to. the bolded, I disagree. MANY killers have parents who were involved, engaged, and interested in them. Many were coddled children, who were doted on and spoiled, in fact.

Look at the childhoods of some of the family annihilators, and you will find sons who were treasured, cherished and doted on. Little Prince's, who grew up to kill their entire families at a family dinner.
here are 2 examples:
Manhattan hedge fund manager fatally shot by son, 30, over cut allowance: source

Ashton Sachs given four life sentences after pleading guilty to killing parents, injuring siblings – Orange County Register

 

[katydid23]

True, but then again, there haven't been copycat marathon bombings.

The public was allowed to discuss everything freely, including how repulsive it is to glamorize them.

INCORRECT. [bolded by me]

See the quote below:

“More recently, the Orlando nightclub shooter admitted that he was inspired by the [2013] Boston Marathon bombers. This was only possible due to the amount of media coverage the Boston bombers received,” he told Journalist’s Resource. In a forthcoming study, Lankford found the younger of the two brothers responsible for the Boston Marathon bombing received “nearly $10 million in free publicity during the month of his attack, which was more than almost any other American celebrity during that time.”

“Don’t name them” – Criminologist asks journalists to help stop mass shootings - Journalist's Resource

 

[katydid23]

In fact, how can police on one hand say that they don't know the motivation, but on the other hand they are worried about copycats copying the motivation?

They aren't worried about the sicko's copying their motivations---they are worried about them copying their violent actions.

an example:

You’ve shown that mass shootings are getting worse in America. Does the media play a role?

In our research, Eric Madfis and I have identified three major consequences of the media coverage. One, it creates a kind of competition for mass shooters to maximize the number of victims they kill. The second is that it’s rewarding these offenders with fame and attention, which is often what they want – it serves to give them a legacy. Even if they die, they may be remembered, according to their distorted views, as someone who mattered, as a somebody rather than a nobody. […]

Apart from that, the media advertises the behavior. So regardless what kind of behavior it is, if you want to increase it, the best way is to advertise it. When it comes to mass shooters, that advertising produces what’s known as both contagion and copycat effects. Contagion essentially means that the ideas about committing this type of attack spread through society and permeate the minds of at-risk individuals. And copycat effects have been documented among many offenders who have specifically identified previous mass shooters as role models.

“Don’t name them” – Criminologist asks journalists to help stop mass shootings - Journalist's Resource

 

[poupetty77]

They aren't worried about the sicko's copying their motivations---they are worried about them copying their violent actions.

an example:

You’ve shown that mass shootings are getting worse in America. Does the media play a role?

In our research, Eric Madfis and I have identified three major consequences of the media coverage. One, it creates a kind of competition for mass shooters to maximize the number of victims they kill. The second is that it’s rewarding these offenders with fame and attention, which is often what they want – it serves to give them a legacy. Even if they die, they may be remembered, according to their distorted views, as someone who mattered, as a somebody rather than a nobody. […]

Apart from that, the media advertises the behavior. So regardless what kind of behavior it is, if you want to increase it, the best way is to advertise it. When it comes to mass shooters, that advertising produces what’s known as both contagion and copycat effects. Contagion essentially means that the ideas about committing this type of attack spread through society and permeate the minds of at-risk individuals. And copycat effects have been documented among many offenders who have specifically identified previous mass shooters as role models.

“Don’t name them” – Criminologist asks journalists to help stop mass shootings - Journalist's Resource

People in Europe read about mass shooters just as much as American people. See their faces, read the same information about them. We still don't have a growing Mass shooting problem. We don't have weekly school shootings.We do have problems, obviously. But not to the extend North America is experiencing it. Maybe the problem is somewhere else.

In my (uneducated and not professional) opinion, if a person is at the point to be so angry, suffering, mentally ill or disturbed that they want to murder people, they will. They will look up to the Columbine killers, K and B, Jeffrey Dahmer or the Little House in the Prairie, maybe. But they will act anyway no mater what. No one is going to read about Kam and Bryer (or any other teen killer) and suddenly think about killing just to copy them. Finding out IF something can be done to avoid anyone getting to that point is important IMO.

I mentioned the case of a high school with an epidemic of suicides problem. They tried to silence and ignore it and it didn't go well.

By any mean, let's not name the future mass/spree/serial killers in the media to avoid the incentive of "fame" as a motive to kill. But Kam and Bryer have been named already. I really genuinely do believe that understanding what happened in their case will help avoid copycats (or the occurence of the same events, even if it is not inspired by them) way more than pretending this case never happened. Understanding what happened in each case will. If the finding is "they were just sociopaths who managed to stay under the radar their whole life then suddenly decided to go a killing spree for no reason, out of the blue", then fine. At least it had been looked into. JMO.

Edited to add : I feel like some people think that looking to see if they had been failed in any way or if they could have been helped would be sharing the responsibility. It isn't. The second they acted, they were 100 % responsible and wrong. But it doesn't change the fact that maybe something could be made to stop the next teen killer to become one, and stop them before they act. Considering the number of countries were school shooters/mass killers don't happen, I would be inclined to say something can be done and it's not pretending there isn't a problem.

 

[srper2]

DBM

 

[KR72]

People in Europe read about mass shooters just as much as American people. See their faces, read the same information about them. We still don't have a growing Mass shooting problem. We don't have weekly school shootings.We do have problems, obviously. But not to the extend North America is experiencing it. Maybe the problem is somewhere else.

Mass shootings aren't common in Canada, Europe, Asia, yet people living in all of those places suffer from mental illness and play video games.