Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #23

[MistyWaters]

Yep...lots of young men in Canada spend a lot of time in the woods, hunting, 4 wheeling, etc. There are types that like bars and types that don't.

I was going to answer this question earlier too, thanks for the reminder.

I’m aware of various airsoft and paint ball venues that host games and tournaments and it’s a popular activity for a small segment of followers. But as for a group of teenagers to just go out somewhere and chase each other around in the bush playing simulated war-games, yeah I can see maybe 12 or 13 year olds. But 18 year olds, that would seem rather odd to me if that was their primary form of entertainment. Had they been born a few years earlier, the two represent the type of young men yearning for war just for the opportunity to kill people who travelled abroad to join ISIS. Maybe that was it - their real life game was shooting defenceless strangers in a make believe war....

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't get how anyone could locate where a gunshot comes from? I get that it would get attention, but is it possible to locate someone hearing gunshots? Honest question, I have never heard gunshots.

Although sound doesn’t travel infinitely, yes if a gun is shot within the hearing range of people, they will hear it. And while the RCMP were checking out the reported sighting in York Landing, it was reported gunshots were heard. Nobody knew were it came from but the RCMP claimed responsibility. A gunshot would not be heard from 100 miles away though.

 

[poupetty77]

Although sound doesn’t travel infinitely, yes if a gun is shot within the hearing range of people, they will hear it. And while the RCMP were checking out the reported sighting in York Landing, it was reported gunshots were heard. Nobody knew were it came from but the RCMP claimed responsibility. A gunshot would not be heard from 100 miles away though.

Oh no, I don't mean that an officer isn't responsible for the shot but I was just wondering, even though I am sure you could hear a shotgun, would it be possible to locate where it comes from and find the person who shot the gun. I am a bit surprised the officers were sent without a better way to be found if lost than to shot their gun, that's it.

 

[MistyWaters]

I agree with you. If they each talk, they would show 15 seconds to each family and even 15 seconds is a lot to say "we killed those people, we're going to kill ourselves. I want to be cremated, you can throw my ashes in the bin".

If they really said, you can throw my ashes in the bin, I wouldn't be surprised if it was followed with a personal message to someone that made them feel like they were worthy of being thrown in the bin. JMO. What would surprise me is if they showed that to their families.

Or maybe they ranted about leaving this world that wasn't worth living in yada yada

Ranting at the world would be my guess. There’s always something to blame especially if the two were paranoid thinkers. The notion that anyone “made them” kill three innocent, defenceless people in cold blood - the reason they were holed up in Northern Manitoba and probably weak, cold, hungry, bug bitten, maybe injured - is totally outrageous, regardless what they stated on the video.

8 Key Traits of Paranoid Thinkers

 

[MistyWaters]

Oh no, I don't mean that an officer isn't responsible for the shot but I was just wondering, even though I am sure you could hear a shotgun, would it be possible to locate where it comes from and find the person who shot the gun. I am a bit surprised the officers were sent without a better way to be found if lost than to shot their gun, that's it.

The RCMP mentioned during the final PC one their learnings was challenges involving technology and communications considering the remoteness of the Northern Manitoba wilderness.

I think I get what you’re wondering about. I’m not a hunter but somebody earlier posted that hunter training teaches how a sequence of shots into the air can be used as a means of communication. And yes, much like the sound of sirens anybody outdoors is able to determine what general direction gunshots are coming from. So it’s possible, say for example, if a grid type search was being conducted, the commanding officer fired his gun in a certain sequence to notify all the officers on the ground that the search was being abandoned.

 

[sprucetip]

The McLeod family doesn’t owe the general public a single word, and I don’t blame them for staying silent. They’d likely be skewered either way. Same with Bryer’s Mom..... good for her. I’m sure they have enough to deal with in this nightmare.

Totally agree. And like someone else already said, they're crucified if they speak, they're crucified if they don't. There's no way to please some people.

 

[sprucetip]

And this made me think of something...we know he only watched the 30-second final video. According to the RCMP, the only thing in the video was "this is our last will and testament, we want to be cremated." Don't you think it would be a bit unnecessary to make him sign an NDA over that? EDIT: Plus all the media attention the battle over viewing the video drew, which sustained public interest in a case the RCMP clearly wanted to be forgotten.

There had to be more to it than that. (Plus it doesn't take 30 seconds to say you want to be cremated.)

If the "throw my ashes in the garbage" comment is accurate, that actually makes a lot more sense about why the RCMP wanted control over the flow of information when it came to the video.

They could have each had their own moment of 15 seconds? Even still, there had to be more than just "cremate us and throw us in the garbage". And yeah makes no sense if that's all it is, why the NDA? There has to be more that concerns the RCMP.

 

[Grouper]

They could have each had their own moment of 15 seconds? Even still, there had to be more than just "cremate us and throw us in the garbage". And yeah makes no sense if that's all it is, why the NDA? There has to be more that concerns the RCMP.

I did a very quick google search on the “identification” behaviour they were worried about inciting if they revealed the videos (noted in the report).

While Wikipedia isn’t the best source, it seems to provide a different definition than what others here have previously thought “identification” means.

Whatever they said in those videos, the RCMP must believe it holds a lot of power and influence. Perhaps they just don’t want people to empathize or relate to Kam and Bryer at all. If there were emotionally-charged statements in the videos, that could make some people more likely to “identify” with them. JMO. I hope this makes sense. Typing while distracted.

 

[sprucetip]

Although sound doesn’t travel infinitely, yes if a gun is shot within the hearing range of people, they will hear it. And while the RCMP were checking out the reported sighting in York Landing, it was reported gunshots were heard. Nobody knew were it came from but the RCMP claimed responsibility. A gunshot would not be heard from 100 miles away though.

And there are SO many variables. The density of trees, wind strength, wind direction, distance, type of gun, being down the cliff vs up on top of it, etc.

I've had neighbours 2km away shoot a variety of guns. We have a similar environment here as there is in northern MB and some times I can hear shots clear as day, others I don't hear a thing. My neighbour was scaring off a bear and let the neighbourhood know afterwards (because we do get concerned when we hear gun shots) and no one heard it. She couldn't believe it because it was so loud and there were so many shots. Not sure what caused it to be so muffled that day.

 

[Satchie]

I did a very quick google search on the “identification” behaviour they were worried about inciting if they revealed the videos (noted in the report).

While Wikipedia isn’t the best source, it seems to provide a different definition than what others here have previously thought “identification” means.

Whatever they said in those videos, the RCMP must believe it holds a lot of power and influence. Perhaps they just don’t want people to empathize or relate to Kam and Bryer at all. If there were emotionally-charged statements in the videos, that could make some people more likely to “identify” with them. JMO. I hope this makes sense. Typing while distracted.

Totally agree: evidence was just released confirming that the Toronto van killer was inspired by a video manifesto of another killer-suicide. And various mass high school killers are aware of and inspired by the notoriety of previous school shooters. These people aren't just spontaneously coming up with the idea to do what they do, independent of each other, they want to emulate others who've done the same thing. So we have to stop giving them that publicity and notoriety. Because their attitude is that being infamous is better than being a nobody.

 

[DarkSkink]

And this made me think of something...we know he only watched the 30-second final video. According to the RCMP, the only thing in the video was "this is our last will and testament, we want to be cremated." Don't you think it would be a bit unnecessary to make him sign an NDA over that? EDIT: Plus all the media attention the battle over viewing the video drew, which sustained public interest in a case the RCMP clearly wanted to be forgotten.

There had to be more to it than that. (Plus it doesn't take 30 seconds to say you want to be cremated.)

If the "throw my ashes in the garbage" comment is accurate, that actually makes a lot more sense about why the RCMP wanted control over the flow of information when it came to the video.

I agree that there was likely more to the video. However, the NDA was only apparently until the investigation was over.

They may have been running some interference for the families, as AS would obviously speak publicly about the details, but given that AS had a lawyer involved, there likely had to be something they could 'technically' use to argue that the release of the details could impact the investigation.

If the RCMP had let other family members see it, especially without an NDA, they'd be on some dodgy legal ground and would have been called on it by AS's lawyer.

 

[poupetty77]

Totally agree: evidence was just released confirming that the Toronto van killer was inspired by a video manifesto of another killer-suicide. And various mass high school killers are aware of and inspired by the notoriety of previous school shooters. These people aren't just spontaneously coming up with the idea to do what they do, independent of each other, they want to emulate others who've done the same thing. So we have to stop giving them that publicity and notoriety. Because their attitude is that being infamous is better than being a nobody.

I think that if some teenager (or two) somewhere is going to be inspired by Kam and Bryer, they will commit a copycat crime whatever is released or not (in my opinion). It is actually worse because 1) they can project any intention on them 2) they can learn the "mistakes" not to make to make sure to become famous and have your message spread.

I am not saying that RCMP should share any manifesto/ideology Kam and Bryer might have shared, but their name spread around the world already. Not releasing any info and pretending that nothing happened will hardly stop a wannabe copycat. JMO

 

[DarkSkink]

<modsnip>



<modsnip> all I'm saying is there had to be more to it than "we want to be cremated." And whatever it was, was probably some sensitive information (such as "throw my ashes in the garbage," or other things like final messages to family), thus the need for an NDA.

Well, given that it was a Will, they would have a hard time legally withholding it from an affected family member. Personal or sensitive information isn't really a justifiable reason the police could keep it from AS. I would think the lawyer would scoff at that sort of assertion.

Had B done something as simple as admit to the killings, LE may have had an argument to stand on technically.

 

[DarkSkink]

I agree with you. If they each talk, they would show 15 seconds to each family and even 15 seconds is a lot to say "we killed those people, we're going to kill ourselves. I want to be cremated, you can throw my ashes in the bin".

If they really said, you can throw my ashes in the bin, I wouldn't be surprised if it was followed with a personal message to someone that made them feel like they were worthy of being thrown in the bin. JMO. What would surprise me is if they showed that to their families.

Or maybe they ranted about leaving this world that wasn't worth living in yada yada

Technically, it's a Will. Police may not be able to edit any of it any more than they could if it was written.

 

[Zella]

Technically, it's a Will. Police may not be able to edit any of it any more than they could if it was written.

It's not legally a will as is, anyway, so that has no bearing on the issue. In Canada, videotaped, unsigned wills are not legally wills.

 

[srper2]

I have been wondering if they had possibly already murdered before their road trip, They lied about the reason for going on the trip and appear had pre-planned to murder people. Maybe they also lied about playing airsoft and camping with a group of friends in the forest on some occasions and instead stalked vulnerable victims for practice: Time to revisit disappearances in hometown of B.C. killing suspects, says homicide expert | The Star

I still don't think the older gun would have been able to have been fired, but the police report refers to the 2 guns being used in the murders. It just looks too damaged to fire to me, but the pic is very grainy.

 

[DarkSkink]

Yes, that Twitter “seemingly knowing” comment was only made after it was reported the sounds of gunshots had been heard in York Landing (100 miles away from Sundance). No arrest was made, suspects were not sighted so it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to take a guess it was the sound of guns involved in suicide. But that was not true as it was later reported the RCMP had indeed fired their weapons as a means of communications, to alert their location.

And I agree with you. It’s just as likely, even if the killers were emotional, depressed and sad at the time of their suicide it was not because of remorse over needlessly taking the lives of three innocent people - it was because they failed to execute a successful escape and their joyride had come to a dead end. As you say, too chicken to face jail. JMO

I wouldn't doubt if each of them had an "OMG, what did I do." moment in their own mind at some point along the journey.

It's not as fun in real life like it is in GTA, nor is it as easy to get away with it.

Would they show remorse even if they had any? Would either of them take the chance to let the other know?

Showing remorse at that point would be like admitting it was dumb, admitting they screwed up, and looking weak for all to see.

 

[DarkSkink]

I think that if some teenager (or two) somewhere is going to be inspired by Kam and Bryer, they will commit a copycat crime whatever is released or not (in my opinion). It is actually worse because 1) they can project any intention on them 2) they can learn the "mistakes" not to make to make sure to become famous and have your message spread.

I am not saying that RCMP should share any manifesto/ideology Kam and Bryer might have shared, but their name spread around the world already. Not releasing any info and pretending that nothing happened will hardly stop a wannabe copycat. JMO

From a Societal perspective, we shouldn't want police making that sort of determination. That sort of self appointed authority to censor details of a criminal investigation is a power they should not have.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Totally agree: evidence was just released confirming that the Toronto van killer was inspired by a video manifesto of another killer-suicide. And various mass high school killers are aware of and inspired by the notoriety of previous school shooters. These people aren't just spontaneously coming up with the idea to do what they do, independent of each other, they want to emulate others who've done the same thing. So we have to stop giving them that publicity and notoriety. Because their attitude is that being infamous is better than being a nobody.

Speaking of which, today I completely randomly came across the quote from Eric Harris' journal, which I've referenced here before, where he talks about their "escape plan" after Columbine. I knew he talked about crashing a plane into NYC but there was actually more to it!

"If by some weird *** **** luck me and V survive and escape we will move to some island somewhere or maybe mexico, new zealand or some exotic place where americans cant get us. if there isnt such a place, then we will hijack a hell of a lot of bombs and crash a plane into NYC with us inside firing away as we go down."

First of all LOL at the thought that Mexico and New Zealand are "exotic" places where Americans can't extradite. But also, hmm, this all sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it? None of us know how serious Kam and Bryer were about "marching to Hudson Bay and escaping to Europe or Africa" (or how serious Eric Harris was for that matter) -- if they were really that delusional, or if it was just expressing rage, or even a sarcastic joke. But it almost sounds like Kam and Bryer were directly referencing Eric Harris' quote, doesn't it?

Investigators do say that teenage mass killers oftentimes extensively research other mass killings (this was even referenced in the report). And Columbine is the one that almost all of them are inspired by to some extent, in philosophy if not logistics.

Either that or it's a coincidence...like maybe these guys all say the same types of things because they have the same types of cultural context (or lack thereof....) and mental issues that lead to this...like maybe they're all part of the same archetype.

A couple of posters had queried if there had been arson attacks around Port Alberni in the time before KM and BS went on their murder trip. I saw this article which questions of they may have been responsible for other murders and disappearances: Time to revisit disappearances in hometown of B.C. killing suspects, says homicide expert | The Star
If they told family they were looking for work when they were really going out with a pre-determined plan to randomly murder innocent people, they could also have told family they were playing airsoft with a group of friends but were really stalking people in the forest and around Vancouver Island. I still think that one of the guns pictured looks like it could not be fired, but was possibly used as a prop. I know police reported that the 2 guns were the guns used in the murders, but the older one looks too damaged to fire to me??

I'm pretty sure the police are looking into whether Kam and Bryer have links to any other unsolved crimes in Port Alberni. With how sloppy these guys were, I can't see them getting away with any previous crimes, which is why I doubt they committed any, but who knows. The missing persons cases referenced also don't seem like homicides to me, but again, who knows.

I'm also pretty sure the older gun stopped working either during or after Lucas and Chynna's murders, and that's why they turned to...alternate methods. JMO.

I wouldn't doubt if each of them had an "OMG, what did I do." moment in their own mind at some point along the journey.

It's not as fun in real life like it is in GTA, nor is it as easy to get away with it.

Would they show remorse even if they had any? Would either of them take the chance to let the other know?

Showing remorse at that point would be like admitting it was dumb, admitting they screwed up, and looking weak for all to see.

I always felt like Kam's expression in the surveillance footage was kind of "OMG what did I do," and I'm not the only person who thought that.

But I definitely don't think either of them would have said it to the world, and maybe not even to each other, even if they did feel that way. Ultimately, that's a question that will never be answered.

 

[CinNC]

I would think it self apparent. I'm saying it isn't feasible to assume anything and you are asking me what my assumption is based on? That is a dichotomy of entities and makes no sense to me.

KM's family hasn't said a word, yet people make assignations as to what may have transpired within their family.

BS's mother and grandmother haven't said a word, yet people create narratives that are based on nothing but conjecture.

People judge AS based on a tiny scratching of the surface of the man's life, persona, and personal history.

Unless anyone knows any of them and their histories since KM and BS were born, it is impossible to make credible assumptions about them.