Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #23

[DarkSkink]

It's not legally a will as is, anyway, so that has no bearing on the issue. In Canada, videotaped, unsigned wills are not legally wills.

These are obviously exceptional circumstances, and the lack of paper does not preclude one from creating a Will. Whether it is legally enforceable would be up to the courts. That is the catch.

AS's lawyer had to have some leverage to force the issue, otherwise, why would they agree to show it? Sympathy? They wouldn't show it until a lawyer got involved, so there was also a 'technically' legal reason for LE to relent.

AS's lawyer could have likely applied for a court order to see it based on the exceptional circumstances and the intention to argue the legitimacy of the Will.

 

[CinNC]

I certainly agree, but, alas, people will do it anyway. They go around judging everything and everybody without the slightest effort to understand the other's point of view, or the impact of their words. I don't think this is something new: there was someone who talked about it a long time ago, what was it....Judge not lest thee be judged. And something about casting stones. IIRC, the same person, in a pretty unpleasant situation said 'Forgive them, for they know not what they do'.

I feel great empathy for the family and friends of the teens, but IMO their pain isn't really because of public opinion (it's always easier to blame strangers). They've been profoundly betrayed by AS and KM, who probably didn't understand and didn't care about the impact of what they were doing on the people who loved them. Young people are very stupid and careless that way.

The family and friends are going to have to suffer through their grief and loss, there's no way around it. I hope they can do it without blaming themselves, blaming the teens, blaming each other, blaming police, blaming the victims, or blaming the public (blaming the courts, blaming the school, blaming the government...). What is done, is done, blame contributes nothing and just leaves bitterness behind.

Well said. I agree with you. And I would never be so presumptuous as to suggest I've never done it myself, but I'm working on it.

Everyone connected to LF, CD and LD are suffering and will continue to suffer for the rest of their lives. The victims did nothing to bring this on themselves and were living their best lives, so confusion, incredulity and the perpetual whywhywhy will live with their families until their last days on this Earth.

The same can be said about KM and BS's families, but they "get to" add guilt and "why didn't I see it coming and how am I responsible?" to the equation.

I think that a sincere and well-intentioned forensic investigation into these two young men's psyches is warranted, but like you said; sans the blame.

It all sounds so "easy" when typed into a comment and without bearing the weight of this heavy load.

 

[NJSleuth91]

@srper2

This article has more information on the Brandon Cairney disappearance. (As well as other disappearances on other parts of Vancouver Island.) Based on this information I don't think Kam and Bryer were involved, and chances are it wasn't even a homicide, IMO (it's very common for people with TBI to go missing, as TBI symptoms can include disorientation, hallucinations, suicidal thoughts, etc.)

‘Where do you start looking?’: Vulnerable men are missing on Vancouver Island, some for decades. Their families are seeking answers | The Star

Brandon Cairney frequented the Rogers Creek Nature Trail on the outskirts of the city, his uncle Mark Cairney told StarMetro as he slowly walked along the trail himself.

“I’m surprised there isn’t a poster of him here,” Mark said, squinting to see if any were fixed to the trees farther down the trail. The missing man’s brothers plastered up posters of him when Brandon disappeared in September 2017.

The trail was just one of Brandon’s regular hikes: The 31-year-old walked long distances on local roads and highways, including the 84-km trek to Nanaimo, according to a police release issued after Brandon disappeared.

Brandon’s injury made it difficult for him to be around people, and the long walks helped him cope and keep busy. But the challenges brought by his head injury spawned more problems.

He had a “strong sense of right and wrong,” said Mark, which landed him in trouble with the law when he got into “street conflicts” in Port Alberni.

In one incident while Brandon was returning from church, a man approached him from behind and “grumbled” something. The situation escalated, Mark said, and Brandon knocked him down by hitting him with a Bible.

These scraps made Brandon feel unsafe on the streets, and he wore a headband because of the movie The Karate Kid. He reasoned that “if people think I’m the Karate Kid, they won’t bug me,” Mark said.

In early October 2017, Mark received a call from Brandon’s probation officer, telling him he had missed an appointment in early September. When he went to his nephew’s apartment, Mark discovered the backpack he took on his walks and his cellphone were there. Brandon was gone.

“He could be anywhere,” Mark said. “Where do you start looking?”

Shortly after Brandon vanished, his bank card was used two times for small purchases in communities within a 150-km stretch east of Vancouver: once at a corner store in Hope and a second time at another convenience store closer to the city.

The individual who used the cards has never been verified; security footage wasn’t clear enough to identify them, Mark said.

The person was holding a walking stick, giving Mark hope it was Brandon. While he holds out hope, Mark doesn’t think he’ll see his nephew again.

“I don’t think he’s coming back,” he said. “It’s too easy to get into trouble when you are living on the streets.”

 

[poupetty77]

@srper2

This article has more information on the Brandon Cairney disappearance. (As well as other disappearances on other parts of Vancouver Island.) Based on this information I don't think Kam and Bryer were involved, and chances are it wasn't even a homicide, IMO (it's very common for people with TBI to go missing, as TBI symptoms can include disorientation, hallucinations, suicidal thoughts, etc.)

‘Where do you start looking?’: Vulnerable men are missing on Vancouver Island, some for decades. Their families are seeking answers | The Star

I agree with you. And if they had started to kill earlier, I assume they would have bought the second gun earlier?

 

[CinNC]

I don't get how anyone could locate where a gunshot comes from? I get that it would get attention, but is it possible to locate someone hearing gunshots? Honest question, I have never heard gunshots.

Our next door neighbor killed himself in his garage with a gunshot to the head. We heard it loud and clear but it was a misty and off and on rainy day (muffling sounds outdoors) and we had no idea what direction the sound came from.

 

[DarkSkink]

Speaking of which, today I completely randomly came across the quote from Eric Harris' journal, which I've referenced here before, where he talks about their "escape plan" after Columbine. I knew he talked about crashing a plane into NYC but there was actually more to it!

"If by some weird *** **** luck me and V survive and escape we will move to some island somewhere or maybe mexico, new zealand or some exotic place where americans cant get us. if there isnt such a place, then we will hijack a hell of a lot of bombs and crash a plane into NYC with us inside firing away as we go down."

First of all LOL at the thought that Mexico and New Zealand are "exotic" places where Americans can't extradite. But also, hmm, this all sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it? None of us know how serious Kam and Bryer were about "marching to Hudson Bay and escaping to Europe or Africa" (or how serious Eric Harris was for that matter) -- if they were really that delusional, or if it was just expressing rage, or even a sarcastic joke. But it almost sounds like Kam and Bryer were directly referencing Eric Harris' quote, doesn't it?

Investigators do say that teenage mass killers oftentimes extensively research other mass killings (this was even referenced in the report). And Columbine is the one that almost all of them are inspired by to some extent, in philosophy if not logistics.

Either that or it's a coincidence...like maybe these guys all say the same types of things because they have the same types of cultural context (or lack thereof....) and mental issues that lead to this...like maybe they're all part of the same archetype.



I'm pretty sure the police are looking into whether Kam and Bryer have links to any other unsolved crimes in Port Alberni. With how sloppy these guys were, I can't see them getting away with any previous crimes, which is why I doubt they committed any, but who knows. The missing persons cases referenced also don't seem like homicides to me, but again, who knows.

I'm also pretty sure the older gun stopped working either during or after Lucas and Chynna's murders, and that's why they turned to...alternate methods. JMO.



I always felt like Kam's expression in the surveillance footage was kind of "OMG what did I do," and I'm not the only person who thought that.

But I definitely don't think either of them would have said it to the world, and maybe not even to each other, even if they did feel that way. Ultimately, that's a question that will never be answered.

If they were inspired by Columbine, they weren't inspired to carry it out the same way.

Shortly after purchasing the gun, they would have had to ride a Ferry full of people and drive past malls and schools full of people. There was ample opportunity for a mass killing event, yet they chose to take an unknown serial killer type of approach, or a Grand Theft Auto type of approach.

Had they not experienced vehicle troubles, would they perhaps had driven back home and attempt to quietly get away with it?

 

[poupetty77]

If they were inspired by Columbine, they weren't inspired to carry it out the same way.

Shortly after purchasing the gun, they would have had to ride a Ferry full of people and drive past malls and schools full of people. There was ample opportunity for a mass killing event, yet they chose to take an unknown serial killer type of approach, or a Grand Theft Auto type of approach.

Had they not experienced vehicle troubles, would they perhaps had driven back home and attempt to quietly get away with it?

They didn't need to kill because of a car's problem if they wanted to go home. They could have had the car repaired and go home. Or ask for help to one of their parents. They had (seemingly) gotten away with the first murders, I don't think the car problems justified Leonard Dyck's murder

 

[srper2]

@srper2

This article has more information on the Brandon Cairney disappearance. (As well as other disappearances on other parts of Vancouver Island.) Based on this information I don't think Kam and Bryer were involved, and chances are it wasn't even a homicide, IMO (it's very common for people with TBI to go missing, as TBI symptoms can include disorientation, hallucinations, suicidal thoughts, etc.)

‘Where do you start looking?’: Vulnerable men are missing on Vancouver Island, some for decades. Their families are seeking answers | The Star

This was the article I also tried to post, but it did not show up in my post:

Time to revisit disappearances in hometown of B.C. killing suspects, says homicide expert | The Star
It considers the possibility that KM and BS may have been involved in other killings.

 

[sprucetip]

I don't get how anyone could locate where a gunshot comes from? I get that it would get attention, but is it possible to locate someone hearing gunshots? Honest question, I have never heard gunshots.

In certain circumstances, you can definitely tell the direction the shot came from. There are hunting corridors all around me and I can tell where someone is shooting from and how close they are. Not an exact science and so many variables but I do once remember thinking the gunshot was WAY too close. (you have to be 1km from a residence)

 

[Trooper]

I would think it self apparent. I'm saying it isn't feasible to assume anything and you are asking me what my assumption is based on? That is a dichotomy of entities and makes no sense to me.

KM's family hasn't said a word, yet people make assignations as to what may have transpired within their family.

BS's mother and grandmother haven't said a word, yet people create narratives that are based on nothing but conjecture.

People judge AS based on a tiny scratching of the surface of the man's life, persona, and personal history.

Unless anyone knows any of them and their histories since KM and BS were born, it is impossible to make credible assumptions about them.

With respect, the mother , and the grandmother both made either a statement or a letter about Bryer, and to Bryer during the manhunt. These were tendered by the RCMP.

His Gran said, he was a nice boy, she enjoyed his company when he lived with her, , she thought he was going to Whitehorse, or the Yukon looking for work, she didn't know much of anything else. Or, she didn't know about either the Yukon or Whitehorse, but certainly , the journey was one of seeking work possibilities, according to what Bryer told her. When he told her this, either before he left, or once on the road was not made clear.


Bryer's mother's note was equally, if not more one of sincere bathos, she loved him, she hoped he would return safely, she implored him to seek help. Something along those lines, it would require me to go back thru 19 threads, not on for me today, but that was the gist of it. ..Her note was strangely muted, in one sense, a classic sign of a ( once upon a time ) battered woman, I thought. Long term, perhaps. Or very shy and very reluctant to be in any sort of spotlight.

 

[NJSleuth91]

If they were inspired by Columbine, they weren't inspired to carry it out the same way.

Shortly after purchasing the gun, they would have had to ride a Ferry full of people and drive past malls and schools full of people. There was ample opportunity for a mass killing event, yet they chose to take an unknown serial killer type of approach, or a Grand Theft Auto type of approach.

Well, yeah. They're spree killers.

But psychologically, I think they had more in common with mass shooters such as Harris/Klebold than with, say, your typical Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer type of serial killer. Given that this was an "extinction burst" with no "cooling-off period," rather than something where they resumed normal life between killings.

I mean, it would be really easy to conceal a body in that area -- or a vehicle, for that matter -- and have it not be found for a long time, if ever, and get away with it. But that wasn't what they did. In fact, some of their actions could debatably be interpreted as drawing attention to what they did and where they were going, but just enough so the police were one step behind. Almost like they were trolling the police. How long would it have taken the police to figure out where they went if they had rolled the car into the bush, rather than setting it on fire and guaranteeing it was immediately found? They even left a trail of scattered items leading to their dead bodies.

And especially, given their whole "militia of two" image. They were basically "pseudocommando" killers, as it is termed in criminology, and those type of killers are usually mass shooters. As far as I know there haven't been any "pseudocommando" serial killers, although I could be wrong.

Like, let's put it this way, if I had to guess who they were inspired by, I'd say mass shooters (and probably ones who were around their age), not serial killers.

But yes, their methodology was very uncommon, which is what makes this case so weird. Especially the fact that they stopped killing. Can anyone think of any case similar to this one in terms of methodology?

Had they not experienced vehicle troubles, would they perhaps had driven back home and attempt to quietly get away with it?

I don't think the vehicle troubles had to do with what they did. I also don't think they planned to get away with it. I think they left knowing this would be a suicide mission. They didn't seem bothered at all by the prospect of killing themselves, going by the description of the videos, which indicates to me they went into it knowing that's how it ultimately would end. I think they saw it as a video game sort of thing, where they would try to evade police as long as they could, but knew at some point it would be game over.

 

[sprucetip]

Speaking of which, today I completely randomly came across the quote from Eric Harris' journal, which I've referenced here before, where he talks about their "escape plan" after Columbine. I knew he talked about crashing a plane into NYC but there was actually more to it!

"If by some weird *** **** luck me and V survive and escape we will move to some island somewhere or maybe mexico, new zealand or some exotic place where americans cant get us. if there isnt such a place, then we will hijack a hell of a lot of bombs and crash a plane into NYC with us inside firing away as we go down."

First of all LOL at the thought that Mexico and New Zealand are "exotic" places where Americans can't extradite. But also, hmm, this all sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it? None of us know how serious Kam and Bryer were about "marching to Hudson Bay and escaping to Europe or Africa" (or how serious Eric Harris was for that matter) -- if they were really that delusional, or if it was just expressing rage, or even a sarcastic joke. But it almost sounds like Kam and Bryer were directly referencing Eric Harris' quote, doesn't it?

Investigators do say that teenage mass killers oftentimes extensively research other mass killings (this was even referenced in the report). And Columbine is the one that almost all of them are inspired by to some extent, in philosophy if not logistics.

Either that or it's a coincidence...like maybe these guys all say the same types of things because they have the same types of cultural context (or lack thereof....) and mental issues that lead to this...like maybe they're all part of the same archetype.

I'm pretty sure the police are looking into whether Kam and Bryer have links to any other unsolved crimes in Port Alberni. With how sloppy these guys were, I can't see them getting away with any previous crimes, which is why I doubt they committed any, but who knows. The missing persons cases referenced also don't seem like homicides to me, but again, who knows.

I'm also pretty sure the older gun stopped working either during or after Lucas and Chynna's murders, and that's why they turned to...alternate methods. JMO.

I always felt like Kam's expression in the surveillance footage was kind of "OMG what did I do," and I'm not the only person who thought that.

But I definitely don't think either of them would have said it to the world, and maybe not even to each other, even if they did feel that way. Ultimately, that's a question that will never be answered.

Wow, interesting! Had no idea they threw that idea out there too. And it was equally as wacky as K&B's "plan" to sail to Europe.

 

[sandbar]

Just for clarity: some RCMP went to York Landing, not all. I don't know if the number or percentage of cops who left/who stayed is in an article out there...

 

[srper2]

I agree with you. And if they had started to kill earlier, I assume they would have bought the second gun earlier?

Yes, better to just dismiss the possibility. Far easier for us all.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I agree with you. And if they had started to kill earlier, I assume they would have bought the second gun earlier?

Well, you don't need a gun to kill someone. However I think Kam and Bryer were not involved because:

a) This guy's bank card was last used by either him (the walking stick indicates it was likely him -- how many people use those?) or presumably a single suspect, a significant distance away from Port Alberni;

b) This guy went on very long walks of dozens of miles, even all the way to Nanaimo, which means there is a very large area he could have potentially disappeared from;

c) This guy regularly got into "street conflicts" in Port Alberni, so if someone did harm him, it's more likely to be due to something like that IMO;

d) Missing persons cases involving people with TBI or other brain injuries that can affect behavior, almost always turn out to be accidental deaths or suicides (in my experience following missing persons cases).

 

[poupetty77]

Yes, better to just dismiss the possibility. Far easier for us all.

I'm sure RCMP have checked. I just dont see any reason to think they killed before, JMO

 

[DarkSkink]

Well, yeah. They're spree killers.

But psychologically, I think they had more in common with mass shooters such as Harris/Klebold than with, say, your typical Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer type of serial killer. Given that this was an "extinction burst" with no "cooling-off period," rather than something where they resumed normal life between killings.

I mean, it would be really easy to conceal a body in that area -- or a vehicle, for that matter -- and have it not be found for a long time, if ever, and get away with it. But that wasn't what they did. In fact, some of their actions could debatably be interpreted as drawing attention to what they did and where they were going, but just enough so the police were one step behind. Almost like they were trolling the police. How long would it have taken the police to figure out where they went if they had rolled the car into the bush, rather than setting it on fire and guaranteeing it was immediately found? They even left a trail of scattered items leading to their dead bodies.

And especially, given their whole "militia of two" image. They were basically "pseudocommando" killers, as it is termed in criminology, and those type of killers are usually mass shooters. As far as I know there haven't been any "pseudocommando" serial killers, although I could be wrong.

Like, let's put it this way, if I had to guess who they were inspired by, I'd say mass shooters (and probably ones who were around their age), not serial killers.

But yes, their methodology was very uncommon, which is what makes this case so weird. Especially the fact that they stopped killing. Can anyone think of any case similar to this one in terms of methodology?



I don't think the vehicle troubles had to do with what they did. I also don't think they planned to get away with it. I think they left knowing this would be a suicide mission. They didn't seem bothered at all by the prospect of killing themselves, going by the description of the videos, which indicates to me they went into it knowing that's how it ultimately would end. I think they saw it as a video game sort of thing, where they would try to evade police as long as they could, but knew at some point it would be game over.

Good post. Thorough.

Have I seen this methodology before? Yes. Virtually every player online playing GTA. Get in your vehicle, head to the gun shop, upgrade your weapon, get back in your vehicle and drive until the urge hits to go pummel or kill someone for whatever reason. If your vehicle gets too damaged, pull someone out of theirs and beat or kill them and then get in and go find something else to do. If the police come, head to the water or airports and grab a boat, plane or helicopter.

Bryer apparently expressed at one point what if a video game happened in real life.

As goofy as it sounds, it may all be that simplistic and stupid.

 

[NJSleuth91]

They told everyone they were going to Alberta though, right? Up to that point, they had no reason to think anyone would point the finger at them.

No. Only Bryer's dad was told they were going to Alberta, for reasons which are still unclear. Kam's family and the rest of Bryer's family were told they were going to Whitehorse to find work. Bryer's great-uncle stated in his interview that he was told on July 11th that they were going to Whitehorse.

That also may explain why the third victim was possibly beaten. They may have just wanted to steal his car.

Yeah I don't think so given the escalation in violence, especially considering Professor Dyck was well-known to be a pacifist and likely would have tried to resolve the situation non-violently if he could. That was a rage murder. Stealing the car was secondary, IMO. Like "well, this guy's car is 20 years newer than ours and doesn't have any apparent problems, might as well ditch our truck...and let's set it on fire while we're at it...."

Good post. Thorough.

Why, thank you

Have I seen this methodology before? Yes. Virtually every player online playing GTA. Get in your vehicle, head to the gun shop, upgrade your weapon, get back in your vehicle and drive until the urge hits to go pummel or kill someone for whatever reason. If your vehicle gets too damaged, pull someone out if theirs and beat or kill them and then get in and go find something else to do. If the police come, head to the water or airports and grab a boat, plane or helicopter.

Bryer apparently expressed at one point what if a video game happened in real life.

As goofy as it sounds, it may all be that simplistic and stupid.

You know...we discussed a lot about how video games factored into their actions, but I don't think anyone ever mentioned GTA before. But come to think of it, this actually makes total sense! Their actions are very similar to how people play GTA. Even hiding out in the woods, like how people go to a remote area of the game map and hide out in the woods when the cops are chasing them until their "wanted level" goes down. Also, for Gen Z and millennials, GTA is sort of a cultural touchstone for "random, senseless spree of violence."

They were never specifically described in the media as being players of GTA, but come on, of course they must have played it...even I've played it and I never play video games....

It also wouldn't be the first crime spree which was logistically inspired by GTA. I've read stories of others in the news.

 

[10ofRods]

Totally agree: evidence was just released confirming that the Toronto van killer was inspired by a video manifesto of another killer-suicide. And various mass high school killers are aware of and inspired by the notoriety of previous school shooters. These people aren't just spontaneously coming up with the idea to do what they do, independent of each other, they want to emulate others who've done the same thing. So we have to stop giving them that publicity and notoriety. Because their attitude is that being infamous is better than being a nobody.

So, I guess we should also ban all movies that have crimes in them and fairy tales as well. Because, in the past, serial killers and others have been inspired by those things (and other things, such as news stories, especially stories about war and conflict). The stories of Zodiac, Zebra and Manson apparently inspired others.

We'd have to also get rid of true crime as a literary genre. So, literature and news would have to go. There have been serial killers for a very long time (highly associated with anonymous living in cities). I wonder what inspired Jack the Ripper...

 

[poupetty77]

So, I guess we should also ban all movies that have crimes in them and fairy tales as well. Because, in the past, serial killers and others have been inspired by those things (and other things, such as news stories, especially stories about war and conflict). The stories of Zodiac, Zebra and Manson apparently inspired others.

We'd have to also get rid of true crime as a literary genre. So, literature and news would have to go. There have been serial killers for a very long time (highly associated with anonymous living in cities). I wonder what inspired Jack the Ripper...

I don't think anybody is saying that the game caused them to kill. Just that they might have been inspired by playing it. They would have killed too had they not played video games. But it might explain some of their actions.