Deceased/Not Found Canada - Lyle, 78, & Marie McCann, 77, Alberta, 5 July 2010 #2 *T. Vader guilty*

[Slebby]

My sense is that the audio is being played in the courtroom and media is reporting on the recording they have heard. It seems the audio has not been shared with media to disseminate to the public.

I saw a couple tweets earlier, corroborating the Edmonton Journal article linked above. Will see if I can get those links and post them.


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[Slebby]

For some reason I can't post links to more than one tweet at a time - I get an error message. You can look at latest tweets by CBC reporter Janice Johnston - @cbcjanjohnston - here I copied the pertinent tweets -

Travis #Vader sentencing hearing now into day 3. We're listening to another audio tape. He's still trying to reach lawyer. #CBC #yeg

The reason for playing these lengthy audio tapes is because #Vader alleges he was denied access to legal counsel. #CBC #yeg

But @RCMPAlberta constable has been trying for hours to get lawyer on phone for #Vader. #CBC #yeg



And these tweets are from Michelle Ferguson of the St. Albert Gazette - @m_fergs - her pertinent tweets

1/2 Currently listening to tapes of Travis Vader trying to contact lawyer. Three different names and 3+ hours later still unable to contact.

2/2 Travis Vader alleging Charter breach of his right to counsel. Crown trying to disprove with tapes made by arresting officers #stalbert




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[Hez]

For some reason I can't post links to more than one tweet at a time - I get an error message. You can look at latest tweets by CBC reporter Janice Johnston - @cbcjanjohnston - here I copied the pertinent tweets -

Travis #Vader sentencing hearing now into day 3. We're listening to another audio tape. He's still trying to reach lawyer. #CBC #yeg

The reason for playing these lengthy audio tapes is because #Vader alleges he was denied access to legal counsel. #CBC #yeg

But @RCMPAlberta constable has been trying for hours to get lawyer on phone for #Vader. #CBC #yeg



And these tweets are from Michelle Ferguson of the St. Albert Gazette - @m_fergs - her pertinent tweets

1/2 Currently listening to tapes of Travis Vader trying to contact lawyer. Three different names and 3+ hours later still unable to contact.

2/2 Travis Vader alleging Charter breach of his right to counsel. Crown trying to disprove with tapes made by arresting officers #stalbert




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Thank you for these. The tweets from the reporters in the courtroom all confirm that while Vader alleges that he wasn't allowed to access legal counsel, the tapes show the opposite. I mean an officer was standing there flipping through a phone book trying to help him. I also find it hard to believe that someone with his prior criminal history didn't have the name and phone number of a criminal lawyer committed to memory, I'm not buying that he was 'traumatized' by the strip search. This wasn't Vader's first rodeo and he knew how the system works.

 

[Slebby]

Huh, they've been live blogging this, who knew?

The order is a little messed up but the times are there so you can figure out what was said when.

http://live.cbc.ca/Event/Sentencing_hearing_underway_for_Travis_Vader





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[otto]

The abuse inflicted upon TV is unacceptable imo and I'm glad he has the courage to talk about it.

In April 2014, Vader filed a $1-million wrongful prosecution lawsuit against more than four dozen RCMP officers, Crown prosecutors and jail guards. The lawsuit claims Vader's constitutional rights, including "the protection of his inherent human dignity, the right to privacy and the freedom from interference with fundamental personal choices," had been violated.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/travid-vader-sentencing-day2-1.3893531

He's playing the victim to avoid punishment for murdering an elderly couple, and for stealing and destroying their property. That is, he claims that he should only be sentenced to 4-6 years for a double murder because the guards were mean to him.

He has no respect for the law, or any other person. It's too bad that he didn't have a private room for his mandatory strip search. If he had made better choices in life, he might be worth listening to, but under the circumstances, whimpering about have his dignity compromised is rather pathetic.

As for appearing in court with a bandage around a wrist that he claims was broken by guards a long time ago - "drama queen" comes to mind.

 

[otto]

O/T (but not by much imo) - how are we interviewing/finding people to fill taxpayer funded positions that require handing out newspapers to people behind bars and issuing orders on what they need to do with that paper. You can't tell me that wasn't an organized 'event'.

Denying someone in custody or in for questioning the right to a lawyer is a 'Canadian Value' now? Pathetic and will likely draw little attention imo.

He has the right to retain and instruct counsel. He had a lawyer and could instruct him. What rights were violated?

Furthermore, Vader has no right to a lawyer when he was questioned:

"Canadian suspects of serious crimes do not have a constitutional right to have a lawyer present during questioning by authorities, the Supreme Court of Canada said today.

In three decisions released Friday, a sharply divided court ruled on a suspect's right to have counsel, specifically whether the Charter's right to counsel extends beyond being able to call and talk to a lawyer after being arrested.
In the central case, the court ruled 5-4 that Canadians have no right to have a lawyer sit in during an interrogation."

http://www.ctvnews.ca/no-right-to-lawyer-during-questioning-scc-rules-1.561357

 

[Slebby]

I have a question about sentencing.
Can the fact that TV has never revealed the location of the remains of the murdered couple factor into the sentence?


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[kdgdid]

I have a question about sentencing.
Can the fact that TV has never revealed the location of the remains of the murdered couple factor into the sentence?


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This is just a guess but I do think it could be factor in sentencing and also parole eligibility. He may be in prison a long time until he takes responsibility for what he has done.

 

[Chickadea]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/travis-vader-mccann-sentencing-manslaughter-1.3898558

Since Lyle and Marie McCann were not killed simultaneously, prosecutors arguing in court this week say that makes the second death "as close to near murder as you can get, without being murder."

That scenario forms a central part of the Crown's argument that Travis Vader deserves a harsher sentence for the second killing.

 

[otto]

I have a question about sentencing.
Can the fact that TV has never revealed the location of the remains of the murdered couple factor into the sentence?


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At this point, I don't remember if he has been convicted of second degree murder, or manslaughter.

Second degree murder, for a single murder, has a maximum prison term of 10 years prior to parole eligibility. Canadian law changed in the last few years to permit consecutive sentencing, so two 2nd degree convictions could result in a 20 year prison sentence. There may be different rules for parole eligibility in consecutive sentencing - not sure if that has been tested yet.

Manslaughter is different.

The definitions are nicely explained here (2012):

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/murder-vs-manslaughter-1.1155132

Assuming the convictions is for second degree murder, then without some sort of mitigating factor, I don't think the sentence will be less that 10 years prior to parole eligibility regardless of whether the remains are located.

For example, a second degree murder charge where the convicted person claims that he (for example) was sexually approached by a man, the sentence has been reduced.

 

[kdgdid]

At this point, I don't remember if he has been convicted of second degree murder, or manslaughter.

Second degree murder, for a single murder, has a maximum prison term of 10 years prior to parole eligibility. Canadian law changed in the last few years to permit consecutive sentencing, so two 2nd degree convictions could result in a 20 year prison sentence. There may be different rules for parole eligibility in consecutive sentencing - not sure if that has been tested yet.

Manslaughter is different.

The definitions are nicely explained here (2012):

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/murder-vs-manslaughter-1.1155132

Assuming the convictions is for second degree murder, then without some sort of mitigating factor, I don't think the sentence will be less that 10 years prior to parole eligibility regardless of whether the remains are located.

For example, a second degree murder charge where the convicted person claims that he (for example) was sexually approached by a man, the sentence has been reduced.

TV was originally convicted of 2nd degree murder but that was later changed to manslaughter.

 

[otto]

Oh, oh - Vader's testimony is shifting!

He has refused to allow video from the strip search and alleged wrist injury to be admitted to court, he did not tell anyone about his alleged "broken wrist" when it allegedly happened, and during the strip search the door was open for 35 seconds and no one walked by the door.

He murdered a vulnerable, elderly couple, and now he is lying about mistreatment to gain sympathy ... typical criminal.

 

[otto]

It looks like the minimum sentence prior to parole eligibility is 4 years. Consecutive sentencing means 8 years, but again who knows what that really means for parole eligibility.

Regarding whether the absence of remains is a factor, again - hard to say. I think the facts that the victims were vulnerable and that they were murdered because Vader wanted drug money will be important in the sentence. It's a relief to know that he can be sentenced to life in prison, but a concern that the conviction was reduced to manslaughter.

"Manslaughter

Definition: A homicide committed without the intention to cause death, although there may have been an intention to cause harm.
...

Criminal negligence — when the homicide was the result of an act or a failure to act that showed wanton or reckless disregard for the lives of others. An act is generally considered negligent if a reasonable person would have foreseen that the action would endanger a life. A failure to act can only be considered negligence if a person had a duty imposed by law to act — it does not apply, for example, to bystanders who see a person in distress and don't help.

In some instances, a murder charge may be reduced to manslaughter if alcohol or other substances are found to have impaired the mental faculties of the perpetrator or if the homicide was committed in the heat of passion resulting from provocation, which is defined as a wrongful act or insult that would deprive an ordinary person of the power of self-control.
...

Sentence: Manslaughter carries no minimum sentence, except when it is committed with a firearm, in which case the minimum sentence is four years in prison. Sentences vary from probation to life in prison."​

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/murder-vs-manslaughter-1.1155132

 

[zencompass]

Dear Otto,

I am concerned about the possible sentence as well.

I feel so badly for the family that they do not know where their loved ones' bodies are. I am praying that Vader has a thread of humanity with which to tell or hint where the bodies are. I believe this will help the family more than the sentence will.

This case has always tugged at my heart and I am so saddened for the family. Hopefully one day soon they will find out
where their loved ones' bodies are. I can always hope...

 

[Slebby]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/vader-strip-search-exaggerated-1.3899491

As expected, TV's claims unravel.
So far, his claim he was denied a lawyer has been disproven with tapes revealing RCMPs assisting him to find a lawyer for several hours.
Now his claim of the humiliating public strip search is refuted as well.

What has he claimed that is still potentially true? That the guards repeatedly asked "where are the bodies?" If i personally came face to face with TV, I would ask him, "where are the bodies?"

IMO


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[otto]

Dear Otto,

I am concerned about the possible sentence as well.

I feel so badly for the family that they do not know where their loved ones' bodies are. I am praying that Vader has a thread of humanity with which to tell or hint where the bodies are. I believe this will help the family more than the sentence will.

This case has always tugged at my heart and I am so saddened for the family. Hopefully one day soon they will find out
where their loved ones' bodies are. I can always hope...

The sad reality is that Vader burns evidence. He burned the RV, and the white truck. It is very likely that he burned the victim's remains as well. If that is true, he will never reveal the location of the remains because he will face additional charges.

 

[Slebby]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/travis-vader-mccann-sentencing-manslaughter-1.3898558

"The deaths in the present case could have been caused by the McCanns encountering Mr. Vader when he was attempting to steal their property," according to the defence brief. "Both resisted, the fight escalated, and in the struggle both McCanns were fatally injured.

"The deaths could have resulted from punches, or other acts which were not likely to result in serious injury or life-threatening injuries."

Despite forensic evidence of gunshot residue, TV's lawyer suggests that maybe his client merely punched the seniors enough that they unexpectedly died?



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[otto]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/travis-vader-mccann-sentencing-manslaughter-1.3898558

"The deaths in the present case could have been caused by the McCanns encountering Mr. Vader when he was attempting to steal their property," according to the defence brief. "Both resisted, the fight escalated, and in the struggle both McCanns were fatally injured.

"The deaths could have resulted from punches, or other acts which were not likely to result in serious injury or life-threatening injuries."

Despite forensic evidence of gunshot residue, TV's lawyer suggests that maybe his client merely punched the seniors enough that they unexpectedly died?



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It's possible that the McCann's spontaneously dropped dead and Vader was merely an opportunistic bystander who took their belongings, but that does not explain the bullet hole in Mr McCann's hat. Ridiculous theories should not be tolerated in Canadian courts.

 

[kdgdid]

It's possible that the McCann's spontaneously dropped dead and Vader was merely an opportunistic bystander who took their belongings, but that does not explain the bullet hole in Mr McCann's hat. Ridiculous theories should not be tolerated in Canadian courts.

I can not agree more about the ridiculous theories.
I also wonder what the motive of TV's lawyer is with allowing TV to make these ridiculous claims of abuse. The lawyer had to know that there was evidence to refute TV's statements?

 

[zencompass]

It's possible that the McCann's spontaneously dropped dead and Vader was merely an opportunistic bystander who took their belongings, but that does not explain the bullet hole in Mr McCann's hat. Ridiculous theories should not be tolerated in Canadian courts.

Well said, Otto, well said.