CANADA Canada - Rene Gunning, 19 & Krystle Knott, 16, Edmonton, 18 Feb 2005

[Naomi1989]

Sorry for so many posts in a row guys.
I found that story about Joseph Laboucan saying her picked up 2 women.It sounds to me that it was proven the second woman he was charged with murdering was one of the two he picked up.I also google searched the street and even if that was Rene and krystle he picked up, it is about a 2.5 hour walk farther into Edmonton from the mall when they told us they were going home AND it would have been at a different time he was in Edmonton since he said they picked up the hooker within a week previous of the second murder(end of march),but the girls disappeared in February...so again...I don't think it was him.BUT it does say in all the stories that he travelled frequently back and forth so...hmm...

 

[tarabull]

Edmonton police service moves officers out of Project Kare sex trade task force
August 14, 2012

snipped...Jo Gunning of Tumbler Ridge, B.C. said he's disappointed the size of Kare is shrinking.

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Ed...e+task+force/7088997/story.html#ixzz23e0LMcHt

 

[nao]

Thanx Naomi, i hope delving into the past dos'nt cause any crazy triggers, take care of yourself you are important. 15 huh, the wild years, so many peoples from when i was that age, dissapeared or ended up in jail, thats why i joined websleuths, cause sociaty has lesser expecations of some peoples, i found it easier to live down to the expectations. I'm glad the girls were found, i'm glad people care, i hope their killer is found.
I figure they where pretty capable of being used to taking care of themselves(i could be wrong) so maybe they were crashed out, which makes it worse.. so sad ..so young..so unable to defend themselves if they were sleeping.
Why was he called "body cast Joe" ?? Best wishes for your future Naomi

 

[Naomi1989]

He was in a bad car accident a year before I met him and had a hard plastic cast around his torso so I always knew him as "body cast joe" which is what everyone called him.
Thank you for your concern,I have just recently started in counseling because I have been getting nightmares alot more lately and apparently have post traumatic stress syndrome from it all and I do feel like this makes it worse,but then a little better each time I try to help.Who knows, maybe I will eventually remember something significant on one of my "walks down terror lane" that will find the scum and put him away.I hope so anyway.

 

[LadyL]

Naomi, welcome to WS and I hope you can find some comfort here. I don't know that you'll find any answers BUT at least you'll have some caring individuals making the journey with you.

 

[Sillybilly]

I am Naomi Ratcliffe.I have been Trying to do my best to search for more answers.As for a few questions I have read directed at me,Sara and I were at her friends apartment at the time that Rene and Krystle phoned and said they were going to hitchhike back to FSJ.Dont see how this is relevant though? ...

<rsbm>

Hi Naomi, and Welcome !! Glad you have joined us to talk about this tragic case.

When I asked where you and Sara were when Rene and Krystel phone you, I meant what city/town were you in. So, thanks for clarifying that tidbit for us.

We always fire a lot of questions, but can you please tell me ... when you and Rene hitched rides from FSJ to Grande Prairie, who was it that Rene knew in GP?

BTW, don't mind us ... we ask tons of stuff in any and all cases and then try to determine whether the info might be relevant or not.

Hope you can get verified soon and pop back to talk with us.

SB

 

[Naomi1989]

Oh,okay yes we were still in Edmonton.
I sent back the verification email with my info not too sure whats going on with it though.
I don't think she actually knew anyone there?I never thought of that before actually...i don't remember her saying and I don't think I asked..we were both intoxicated when we started hitchhiking so maybe we never thought that part through..we did stay the night there in Grande Prairie with some people that picked us up just outside of Dawson Creek, then continued hitchhiking in the morning.

 

[elepher50]

Hi Naomi1989,

Please be kind to yourself as you step back in time to answer questions as this can be a difficult thing to do. I did read one article where it was mentioned that they did not want to go to the party with you as they wanted to follow around some boy at the Edmonton Mall whom they didn't really know. Do you know if this boy was ever found and questioned as to whether he really talked with them that night or got to know them.

It does seem very likely that they did start hitchhiking and were picked up and then everything turned very bad for them.

It does strike me a bit odd that they would start hitchhiking that late at night - would that be a common thing to do back then?

eleph

 

[Naomi1989]

Yes they did find him I'm guessing they questioned him but I was never told of what came of it.it was only around 9pm and Edmonton is one of those cities that don't really sleep so i guess that was alright.Like I mentioned before, they were drunk when leaving Edmonton so probably not much logic was put into the decision.
Rene and I tried to leave Grande Prairie the night we were there at about 2am I'm guessing but the highway was so dead (and we probably werent very visible) we couldn't get picked up.I never realised it was a terrible idea because if we did get picked up by the wrong person it would be much easier for them to attack us in the dark as opposed to the day time.How naîve we were, thinking we were indestructible because we were together.
I'm curious,Have you all lost someone?It was suggested that I go speak in schools when I am ready to and warn teenagers against hitchhiking.If anyone here has done something like this..did it help or hurt more?I have a fear of speaking in front of groups but I'm willing to put that aside if it's for good,but if it just hurts more I don't think I can do it..

 

[elepher50]

Yes they did find him I'm guessing they questioned him but I was never told of what came of it.it was only around 9pm and Edmonton is one of those cities that don't really sleep so i guess that was alright.Like I mentioned before, they were drunk when leaving Edmonton so probably not much logic was put into the decision.
Rene and I tried to leave Grande Prairie the night we were there at about 2am I'm guessing but the highway was so dead (and we probably werent very visible) we couldn't get picked up.I never realised it was a terrible idea because if we did get picked up by the wrong person it would be much easier for them to attack us in the dark as opposed to the day time.How naîve we were, thinking we were indestructible because we were together.
I'm curious,Have you all lost someone?It was suggested that I go speak in schools when I am ready to and warn teenagers against hitchhiking.If anyone here has done something like this..did it help or hurt more?I have a fear of speaking in front of groups but I'm willing to put that aside if it's for good,but if it just hurts more I don't think I can do it..

Thanks for clarifying the approx 9pm time and that they found the boy they were so keen on that evening in the mall.

I have no experience in real life with losing a friend or family via murder, but I have had my heart broken more times than I would care to count following cases here on WebSleuths. Not having experienced a loss in this manner, I cannot speak to your questions on whether it would help or not by speaking to groups about hitchhiking. There is a powerful story to be told based on losing two friends that as far as we know hitchhiked their way into a very bad ending. Me, I would try the speaking once and if it worked great, if not simply don't do it again - if one life is saved by speaking then it would be well worth it. Why not do a video and tell the story on video, meet with the group and show the video and then do a Q and A - just a thought.

Take care and hopefully you will soon be verified.

eleph

 

[Naomi1989]

Wow, I never thought of that,thank you for that great suggestion..maybe I will start out just with a YouTube video and see how that goes.You are all great people on here, especially whoever created this site.Restores some of my faith in humanity you know?Thank you as well to the OP who started this specific topic. good to know people are still trying to help find the killer. <3

 

[Sillybilly]

Yes they did find him I'm guessing they questioned him but I was never told of what came of it.it was only around 9pm and Edmonton is one of those cities that don't really sleep so i guess that was alright.Like I mentioned before, they were drunk when leaving Edmonton so probably not much logic was put into the decision.
Rene and I tried to leave Grande Prairie the night we were there at about 2am I'm guessing but the highway was so dead (and we probably werent very visible) we couldn't get picked up.I never realised it was a terrible idea because if we did get picked up by the wrong person it would be much easier for them to attack us in the dark as opposed to the day time.How naîve we were, thinking we were indestructible because we were together.
I'm curious,Have you all lost someone?It was suggested that I go speak in schools when I am ready to and warn teenagers against hitchhiking.If anyone here has done something like this..did it help or hurt more?I have a fear of speaking in front of groups but I'm willing to put that aside if it's for good,but if it just hurts more I don't think I can do it..

A lot of posters here have had friends or relatives disappear or be murder victims. I had a relative who was murdered and it took 13 years for his "best friend" (his killer) to be brought to justice. I have witnessed first hand the devastation that is left behind. I have also had both my children die, although not as a result of murder. So, that's why I "do what I do" ... IMO, the best one can do with all those darned ol' lemons in life is make lemonade. Remember that "Courage is fear that has said its prayers". My advice to you is take that fear, conquer it, and do something positive with the knowledge and experience that you have gained through this tragedy. I really like elepher's suggestion regarding an educational video ... YOU CAN DO IT ... and if it saves even one life, those few minutes of fear will be worthwhile. For starters, you might consider getting in touch with Tony Romeyn who runs the Highway of Tears website, or the Project KARE team to discuss the possibilities of the video.

I'm not the "religious" type", but sometimes when I have to speak about something really, really important, and just before I open my big mouth I say "Hey God, please guide my mouth". So far, it's worked pretty good for me (but that's just my opinion )

If you find you just can't do it, you don't have to justify that decision to anyone.

SB

 

[Flossie JMO]

Not sure if off topic as Ellie May Meyer and Nina Louise Courtepatte and Laboucan have been discussed: http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2010/03/17/13257101-qmi.html
http://october4th.ca/files/NWAC_Storytelling_COURTEPATTE Nina.pdf


so very sad

 

[Flossie JMO]

a bit more, just tragic and sick

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/29/witness-details-beating-death

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/22/brutal-sex-slaying-retold-again

and JMO I hate that they include "sex trade worker" or stripper, drug or alcohol issues, "runaway" etc in articles. They deserve as much safety, love, care and respect and even acknowledgement fgs as each and every other victim imo, they are human beings and murdered and have families and friends who love them. Sorry for the rant

 

[elepher50]

What a puzzle this is turning out to be.

Rene and Krystle were found south of highway 43 on the Forestry Trunk Road which is route 734. They were found just south of where the river crosses route 734 is my understanding. There is NO access off Route 43 to Forestry Trunk Road where Rene and Krystle were found. Meaning no access off 43 to Forestry Trunk Road either going westbound or eastbound on Route 43 (which is a double lane highway).

So coming from Edmonton and going west what route were the girls on to end up on route 734 .... what would make sense ... considering they were headed to either FSJ or Dawson Creek.

ETA: It looks to me like Rene and Krystle probably left West Edmonton Mall going west on route 16 to just past Hinton where they went in a north westerly direction on route 734. This imo is probably the route they were taken to arrive at where they were found.

Then whoever dropped Rene and Krystle in that area continued north and looped around to get onto Route 43 heading in either an easterly or westerly direction at DeBolt. The girls could have come via route 43 and exited at DeBolt to arrive at where they were found on route 734.

Debolt is the key to all of this whether the girls came via route 43 or route 16.

 

[Sillybilly]

There is NO access off Route 43 to Forestry Trunk Road where Rene and Krystle were found. Meaning no access off 43 to Forestry Trunk Road either going westbound or eastbound on Route 43 (which is a double lane highway).

<rsbm>

Elepher, if you do a google satellite view and zoom in, it appears to me that there is access to Forestry Trunk Road from both the eastbound and westbound lanes off Hwy 43.

Debolt is 404 km (5 hrs) from West Edmonton Mall, whereas it is only 58.5k (43 mins) outside of Grande Prairie. I'm wondering if perhaps they made it back to Rene's acquaintance(whoever that was?) in GP and something happened there. Presumably someone who lives local around GP/Debolt would have a much better knowledge of Forestry Trunk Rd than a long distance trucker or someone from the city of Edmonton.

I also can't see a big rig going that far south on a secondary road as it would likely stand out like a sore thumb. Not to say that they didn't get a ride in a smaller vehicle, but IMO it doesn't smack of trucker.

JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

Article describing Forestry Trunk Rd:

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Alberta_Highway_734

From a link in the above article to an article about Hwy 40 (the southern part of Hwy 734 / FTR), it would seem that the northern part (i.e. Grande Prairie / Debolt end) of Forestry Trunk Rd (Hwy 734) is not paved:

excerpt from:
http://www.enotes.com/topic/Alberta_Highway_40

The second gravel section, which runs for approximately 293 km (182 mi), through the Rocky Mountains Forest is named Highway 734, also called Forestry Trunk Road. The intention is that one day the entire road will be a continuous paved highway

 

[Naomi1989]

Wow,You guys are good at that.Im embarrassed that I have never been able to figure out the north south east west thing,just confuses the crap out of me.But I know just from driving the highway you CAN get to forestry trunk from either side of the highway,easier if you are on the right side heading away from Grande Prairie,Toward Edmonton.But going the opposite direction you would need to wait for one of the small roads?(not sure what you would call them) that connect the divided highway to cross to the opposite side.IMO Given that it would be at night time I think it would be less suspicious if a big rig would be going down that road than a car..I never actually turned on that road and traveled down it because it was hard enough just passing but, from what I can picture, it was heavily covered with trees and a bend in the road not too far in so once a truck got
Past that spot it wouldn't be very visible from the highway.


Edit:I just google mapped it from my iPhone,Apparently you can take that Forestry Trunk road to get to Red Deer and Calgary :/ Ohh boy...

 

[Naomi1989]

a bit more, just tragic and sick

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/29/witness-details-beating-death

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/22/brutal-sex-slaying-retold-again

and JMO I hate that they include "sex trade worker" or stripper, drug or alcohol issues, "runaway" etc in articles. They deserve as much safety, love, care and respect and even acknowledgement fgs as each and every other victim imo, they are human beings and murdered and have families and friends who love them. Sorry for the rant

I had never read this before,now I wish I hadn't,especially since it had that beautiful girls photo.This makes me ill reading all the disgusting details,and I'm now hoping to GOD it wasn't joe who got a hold of them that sick f*ck.
Thankfully,it now seems inconsistent with his style,The skulls were found intact as far as I was told and he apparently likes to beat them in so now I feel even more strongly that it was not him.

 

[Sillybilly]

But going the opposite direction you would need to wait for one of the small roads?(not sure what you would call them) that connect the divided highway to cross to the opposite side.

<rsbm>

Sadly, I've never learned how to post a screenshot, but both google and bing satellite images show very clearly that if you are going westbound on Hwy 43, you turn left at Goodwin Corner, crossing the eastbound lane, right onto Forestry Trunk Rd. It appears to be quite a wide, well-used gravelled swath, (but what appears to be gravel could be distortion from zooming in so close).