CANADA Canada - Samuel Lottery, 17, London, Ont, 19 Jan 1996

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Geez I intended to leave WS & go to bed but that church info is not what I expected to find. I don't really know what to think of all that or if it's even relevant? I'll probably dream about churches now!

*edit: I was wrong again. It was Wellington United that was sold & Rowntree inherited the congregation & some items from Wellington church. That doesn't really have much to do with Samuel though. Someone from Pillar Of Fire/ Fire Baptized may have transfered to Wellington & then on to Rowntree but so ?
 
There didn't seemed to be much of an investigation, until the letters arrive. I don't seem to recall ever hearing of where they found his belongs.

I still feel that the church is some kind of link. There are so many different scenario's of possibilities, church member/official being inappropriate with Samuel killed him to shut him up, family member, possible a father thought Samuel was inappropriate with his daughter, could Samuel have been gay,

I think the key to solving this is the letters, what was threatening, reference to future murders, threat to family or church, so many unanswered questions. Was there no fingerprints on the letter or envelope?

I wish the investigators would release more information

Something that bothers me on a mom level is that if this was my son every year on the anniversary I would be making sure that the public remembered what happened and that we are still looking for justice.

This case goes pretty much unnoticed, very sad and strange
 
Along the same vein, the CSI ep made me think someone might have signed one of Samuels yearbooks from the year before? Also, this is back when people still wrote notes in class & passed them around.

Tbh even just walking around the Thames makes me nervous let alone going into the Beal archives. Esp since women have gone missing from parks & along Oxford street (the other missing woman is Vanessa Fotheringham, last seen around Oxford Street E & Quebec St), I'm not too keen on wandering around & sleuthing an old murder!

rbbm.

Please be careful and DO NOT wander near the river.. (especially this time of year, with everything melting!)
In case you are interested, or there is any connection, this is the thread for Vanessa Fotheringham..

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ON-16-Feb-2012&highlight=vanessa+fotheringham

Also, a thread for unsolved murders of young people in London, Ontario in the 60's and 70's.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-1960s-and-70s&highlight=vanessa+fotheringham
 
rbbm.

Please be careful and DO NOT wander near the river.. (especially this time of year, with everything melting!)
In case you are interested, or there is any connection, this is the thread for Vanessa Fotheringham..

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ON-16-Feb-2012&highlight=vanessa+fotheringham

Also, a thread for unsolved murders of young people in London, Ontario in the 60's and 70's.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-1960s-and-70s&highlight=vanessa+fotheringham

Thank you! I really do not think it's wise for me to do that. At all. Nope.

I remember a little bit about Vanessas' case. Actually one night I was walking home from downtown when some police stopped & asked me to stop & remove my hat, then said "nevermind" & kept driving. Now I think they were looking for Vanessa bc we have a similar physical description. Idk? I'd like to think they were searching for her. That creep who tried to pick me up in his car, that has always bothered me. He would seem to be a POI based off his strange behaviour (I say strange bc he actually got out of his car & ran behind me on the sidewalk. Who does that?!). Of course that is off topic & I can't really say anything about the person but yeah... There are definitely strange & dangerous people lurking around this city.
 
I appreciate the help very much! Ugh I knew I messed up the address too. It's 156 Wellington not 153.

I was just looking into the church & it seems like at one point Pillar Of Fire/Fire Baptized merged with Wellington United. Then somehow "Rowntree Memorial" got involved but then they ran out of money or something & they too merged with Wellington? One site said "After a year of tumultuous real estate dealings, the church property was sold on May 10, 2012". On the site associated w Rowntree it just says they "joined with Wellington United in 2012".

Sounds like some serious drama imo.


Congregations have often doubled up as their congregations dwindle.....people don't like change ((especially older ones))...but may mean staff cuts (often there is a paid secretary for example)) .... MOO....and power struggles with elders, or decision makers..or which ''good cause'' to support or even how much to pay pastor
 
There didn't seemed to be much of an investigation, until the letters arrive. I don't seem to recall ever hearing of where they found his belongs.

I still feel that the church is some kind of link. There are so many different scenario's of possibilities, church member/official being inappropriate with Samuel killed him to shut him up, family member, possible a father thought Samuel was inappropriate with his daughter, could Samuel have been gay,

I think the key to solving this is the letters, what was threatening, reference to future murders, threat to family or church, so many unanswered questions. Was there no fingerprints on the letter or envelope?

I wish the investigators would release more information

Something that bothers me on a mom level is that if this was my son every year on the anniversary I would be making sure that the public remembered what happened and that we are still looking for justice.

This case goes pretty much unnoticed, very sad and strange

bbm: totally agree.....Churches are seldom left ''unlocked'' so the letters arriving at the Church would suggest someone familiar with access that would not be considered unusual. ((again it has never been stated whether they arrived by Canada Post or were just placed there -))

Even if the letters were mailed, it indicates an intimate knowledge of the connection of the family to the Church - again insider knowledge.

There has been no mention of school bag, or clothing found that related to the well regarded high school student.
 
Just a quick thought here.....could there have been some sort of encampment on the river behind the Church that could have been a security issue??

If a person was at the church doing some clean up duties ((as part of the volunteer stewardship -- if that existed)) there may be some danger?

OR.......helping the church with it's computer issues?? and I wonder if there was anything ever stolen from the Church or it's offices! Computers were really pricey in the 90's.

WAG on my part

a bright young man of 17 would know a lot more about computers than the ''adults'' and I truly wonder if he was called upon for his services to assist someone in the congregation --
 
^ Well according to that Rowntree website, it's pretty technical stuff! I wonder when Pillar Of Fire moved & what exactly happened to the staff & congregation? As I posted before, there is an address for 156 Wellington but that became Wellington United & so on. I wonder if Samuels parents stayed with the church when it moved? Maybe someone didn't want them to?

The fact that his belongings never appeared brings up even more questions. If Samuel went to school that day wouldn't he have his backpack? Books? A Walk-Man? Possibly a jacket and hat & obviously clothing. Someone went through Samuels' things & took his photo from his wallet so what happened to his stuff?

I feel like whoever did this to Samuel either did it while they were already at the river or nearby park (Gibbons?) or at/close to the church or did it inside a vehicle or did it elsewhere and drove Samuels' body to that part of the Thames. If Samuel was killed elsewhere, why choose that part of the Thames? You could drive anywhere, why that location? How many classmates or peers did Samuel know with vehicles? I could see an adult carrying out some of those tasks but am not so sure about a teenager.

When you see how close the river is to the church property in proximity to where the remains were found, paired with the first letter & the family connection, it's hard to call the whole thing coincidence.
 
January 19 is the ''orthodox'' date of Epiphany -- ((Julian calendar))

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7070

In different parts of the world it is celebrated by immersion for reasons outlined in this brief excerpt from Wikipedia

''The Epiphany is observed on 19 January according to the Julian calendar of the Russian Orthodox Church. The day marks the baptism of Jesus in the River Jordan. To celebrate this, holes are cut in the ice on rivers, lakes or other bodies of water, usually in the form of a Christian or Orthodox cross. Around midnight, believers submerge themselves three times in the water to honour the Holy Trinity, after a priest says a prayer"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_swimming

I post this not to create a discussion ((TOS))....but it bothered me a bit about the symbology and coincidences -- MOO
 
this whole case seems very hush hush ((MOO))....

there's no public notice re memorial or funeral that I can find and no public statements by the family or church
 
January 19 is the ''orthodox'' date of Epiphany -- ((Julian calendar))

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7070

In different parts of the world it is celebrated by immersion for reasons outlined in this brief excerpt from Wikipedia

''The Epiphany is observed on 19 January according to the Julian calendar of the Russian Orthodox Church. The day marks the baptism of Jesus in the River Jordan. To celebrate this, holes are cut in the ice on rivers, lakes or other bodies of water, usually in the form of a Christian or Orthodox cross. Around midnight, believers submerge themselves three times in the water to honour the Holy Trinity, after a priest says a prayer"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_swimming

I post this not to create a discussion ((TOS))....but it bothered me a bit about the symbology and coincidences -- MOO

Definitely interesting & strange coincidence. I don't know anything about church practices or beliefs, or the difference between Orthodox/Catholic/Christian/Presbyterian etc. Pillar Of Fire aka Fire Baptized Holiness sounds like a Baptist church?

If weather was mild & the river was not frozen (unable to cut holes in the ice), would that affect this "winter swimming" activity?

Who was the last person to see Samuel? What were Samuels' last known whereabouts?

Not so sure if the case is being kept quiet but there has been very little information & no updates. I'm getting the impression that either Samuels parents were too overcome with grief or were possibly in fear from knowing who committed the crime. They recieved threatening letters & were probably afraid to say anything. Especially since Samuels' remains kept appearing. It looks like the parents waited for awhile to bury their son & I don't think the Lottery family was very large. It might have just been Sam & him mom and dad so maybe they kept it quiet & private?

I wonder how much involvement the parents had with the church? 27 Gunn St is a far distance to travel from Whiteoaks neighborhood. I wonder if Pillar Of Fire was involved in the funeral service?
 
The evidence in this high profile case, involves comparing the similarities of the killer's handwriting , to the suspect.
rbbm.
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsmax-Tv/robert-durst-murder-charge-hbo/2015/03/16/id/630520/

"In the 2000 Berman murder case, it's not the "killed them all" remark caught on tape that helps Los Angeles prosecutors — it's two handwritten letters featured in "The Jinx" that strongly implicate Durst, said the host of the weekly podcast, "Talkin Law with Dan Hochheiser."

One letter, an anonymous note to police in Beverly Hills revealing the location of Berman's "cadaver," resembles a personal letter to Berman that Durst has admitted to writing, both in its handwriting and an identical misspelling of "Beverly Hills" as "Beverley Hills."

Durst, in "The Jinx," denied writing the anonymous letter about Berman's body.

But Hochheiser said: "That note written in block letters with 'Beverly' misspelled, with an extra 'e' before the 'y', matches the letter turned over by Berman's stepson to HBO, which has the same block letters and the same misspelling of 'Beverly,' which connects that letter — which Durst admits he wrote — to the anonymous letter, which was obviously written by the killer, since he's the one who told the police the cadaver is there.

"Furthermore, using the word 'cadaver' in that anonymous note is very telling," said Hochheiser. "Because remember: Kathleen Durst was a medical student. There were reports that she had worked with cadavers, so only the killer who had a close relationship with her would use that word in that note."
 
Re- handwriting samples, I might be repeating myself but again I wonder if LE checked the funeral registry at Samuels' service? Or if anyone with similar handwriting sent the Lotterys' a condolence card? Same goes for previous yearbooks & school notes.

Reading over one of the Free Press articles (dated Oct. 2009) it says Samuel failed to return home on January 18th & was officially reported missing January 19th. What time was Samuel expected to return home?

The same article also says that an envelope containing the first note & photo of Samuel was "dropped off" at Gunn Street church. "Dropped off"? Who dropped it off?! And that the same stationary was used for both letters & that both letters suggested searching Thames river. So both letters were on the same stationary? What do they mean by "dropped off"? Who recieved the letter? Anyone could write the letter & pretend to find it. Hmm...

It would be so helpful if LPS had created an updated & more detailed timeline. They seem to have left out so much information & small details that could have made a difference for potential witnesses. For example stating Samuels physical description, last known whereabouts, the fact that not only was he reported missing on the 19th but was expected home the previous evening. This is not meant to be critical of the LPS, I'm just saying an update would be helpful.

Another case with some eerie similarities imho would be BTK. Not in choice of victims or "MO" but BTK trolled neighbourhoods & stalked his victims, learned their routines etc in the weeks prior to their deaths. BTK also kept tokens from his victims, sent taunting letters to news media claiming responsibility. He was also a church deacon / leader of congregation of his church. Lastly, BTK sent a letter to "Witchita Eagle" (newspaper?) claiming to have killed one victim (Viki Wegerle sp?) & included a photograph and drivers licence taken from the victims wallet.

I'm not saying that BTK killed Samuel Lottery but perhaps whoever killed Samuel was borrowing ideas?
 
There is so little information on this case. I think that Samuel was treated as a runaway, by his parents the first day and then by the police. I wonder what kind of boy Samuel was, why his parents didn't call the police the first night, after all he was considered a minor. I know if it was my son I would have called when it became apparent at bedtime that he wasn't home still.

I think that the "dropped off" letter means just that it was dropped off at the church, we have to remember the church was an old building, so it would have had a mail slot, was probably done when it was dark out so no one would notice. The letter that went to his parents I'm assuming was mailed.

I watch a lot of cold case shows, with the new forensics I have to wonder if the investigators have never tried to have any new techniques tried to get finger prints off of the letter or envelope, if envelope was sealed could there be any chance of DNA from where the glue strip was licked. I think that Samuel's disappearance wasn't investigated in the proper way from the beginning.

I think that the murderer of Samuel is someone he knew, someone that knew he went to that church. It's someone that cared enough that they wanted him found, cause if they only wanted notoriety for the murder they would have continued with the letters until they were caught.
 
There is so little information on this case. I think that Samuel was treated as a runaway, by his parents the first day and then by the police. I wonder what kind of boy Samuel was, why his parents didn't call the police the first night, after all he was considered a minor. I know if it was my son I would have called when it became apparent at bedtime that he wasn't home still.

I think that the "dropped off" letter means just that it was dropped off at the church, we have to remember the church was an old building, so it would have had a mail slot, was probably done when it was dark out so no one would notice. The letter that went to his parents I'm assuming was mailed.

I watch a lot of cold case shows, with the new forensics I have to wonder if the investigators have never tried to have any new techniques tried to get finger prints off of the letter or envelope, if envelope was sealed could there be any chance of DNA from where the glue strip was licked. I think that Samuel's disappearance wasn't investigated in the proper way from the beginning.

I think that the murderer of Samuel is someone he knew, someone that knew he went to that church. It's someone that cared enough that they wanted him found, cause if they only wanted notoriety for the murder they would have continued with the letters until they were caught.

First I should say welcome to WS fellow newbie! And thanks for your input into Samuels case, it's been really awesome to see others take an interest. Makes the whole thing seem less hopeless/pointless considering there is so little info I question whether it's worth digging into.

I agree with what you're saying. I don't have children but can't imagine why Samuels parents didn't push LE harder. Esp if he was their only son & they had a small family. The only thing I can attribute that to is either grief, guilt, fear or something cultural.

Re- the "dropped off" letter, I was just nitpicking the terminology. Sent to, dropped off, found/left, they all basically mean the same thing. I wonder who found the first letter though?

Re- the envelope & letters/stationary, I too watch a lot of forensics & cold case shows (prob too many) & agree there must be newer methods of testing since they probably last looked into Samuels case. If the killer licked the envelope or stamp on letter #2 out of force of habit then there must be trace DNA. Even the photo of Samuel from his wallet could contain a print. Photo paper picks up prints very easily. They must be able to at least identify the stationary or ink? I wonder if LE searched the Lottery home & took handwriting samples from Samuels' parents?

What really gets me is the delay in searching the river for Sam. If both letters indicated to search the Thames, why did it take 1 year +2 months?? Samuels body was in that river for 4 seasons. If only they had looked sooner, the body might have been in different condition & contained more clues.

You make an excellent point about notoriety. I've been questioning whether those letters indicate guilt/remorse or psychopathy. If it were psychopathy & need for attention there would likely have been more letters. Esp since LE didn't recover all of Samuels remains right away. I imagine that would aggravate a psychopath & they would keep writing or leaving hints. Plus, if for attention then why not mail the letters or contact LE directly?

The only other things that had me questioning psychopathy v.s remorse is 1- if psychopathy, why not kill again 2- if remorse, why does it appear that Samuel was discarded? I would think that if the killer was close & felt remorse or emotional connection, they would treat the body with more "care" (for lack of a better word)? I'd imagine some type of concealment or wrapping or attempt at a grave? Maybe that is incorrect to assume? (input welcome on that point)
 
This story is so sad, it's like Samuel just disappeared and no one cared. What happened to his family, did they stay in London or move away? What about extended family, where are they? How many years had the Lottery family had roots in London?

I wonder where Samuel was buried, a cemetery in London or some where else
 
Just my two cents worth of thoughts for the day.

If his death was caused by ''accident''.....perhaps the river was most expedient way of dealing with it.

The letters as pointed out above first arrived 3 weeks after he went missing and perhaps the writer was hopeful that his body was recoverable.

Perhaps the writer was covering for someone else. (Parent ??) just my SWAG and MOO and two cents worth.
 

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