CAR SEAT discussion

[Hippiemomof5]

I still can't get over those straps being set at the lowest setting--they should have been adjusted a long time ago! The word is that this smaller car seat was used on a regular basis; it was recently in LH's car--I would imagine that aside from the times she picked Cooper up from daycare, she also drove him a lot of other places in the evenings, on weekends, etc. Maybe they just didn't know, but it seems really odd that neither of them would have adjusted those straps--especially since they actually did notice they needed to buy a new one. Which brings up another thought...did they only have the one seat prior to getting the new one?

I'm thinking they had an extra base for the red seat so they left the actual seat at daycare with Cooper. My kids don't go to daycare but that seems like a workable situation. Leanna added the big boy car seat to her amazon wish list in January of this year, it seems odd that they waited so long to buy it.

 

[SStarr33]

I don't doubt for one second that he was over 30" tall. But even over 30" tall, his torso could have been short enough that he still passed the one inch rule, and if that is the case, it will be argued.

Height ranges on car seats are very commonly viewed as guidelines by CPSTs. Something that will give a parent an idea if their kids will fit. I've noticed that fit within a seat is viewed on very generic terms. Straps at or below shoulders rear facing, with 1" or more of shell above head. (This would be measured best with a right angle, not just an eyeball.) in cases of seats where the lowest slots are above the shoulder, as long as it's less than x(I forget the exact number)", it's acceptable. Forward facing kids have to have straps at or above and a certain amount of shell he hind their head. There is one manufacturer that says to go by the shell of the seat, even if the top slots are below. Well this is something that is pretty well documented as a no-no and many techs disregard it, still recommending replacement by strap height alone. The only time height ranges are really paid attention to is on boosters or forward facing in a cosco seat. The latter has more to do with the extended rear facing movement. It's one more thing that can be argued to keep babies rear facing.

There is no such than as an "appropriate forward facing seat" for a one year old. None. If I had to choose between my toddler forward facing in a seat that he fit according to the manufacturers guidelines, and an infant seat he met the weight limit and one inch rule on, I'd pick the infant seat, even if he was out of the written range.

Thank you for the information. It has been repeated here many, many, many times, but for some reason, people do not like to hear it.

 

[DeDee]

Cooper's car seat was too small for his personal comfort. I challenge that it was also too small for his personal safety and fear he could have suffered a severe whiplash had the vehicle been rear ended. Cooper had fresh abrasions on the back of his precious head. The abrasions were caused from either 1) Cooper banging his head against the top of the infant's seat, in frustration, as he struggled to free himself et al or 2) the back of the head abrasions were caused as Cooper's body violently responding to the high temperature with seizures as his brain began swelling. I believe Cooper's head was appx 3" over the top and the abrasions will be found near the center from the top on the back of his head.

JRH told LEO the make, model and specs for Cooper's car seat. Therefore, Justin Ross Harris was well aware his son had outgrown the infant's seat and the risks involved when he strapped his son "in tight" [Ross' words] on June 18.

Cooper's flight from this world was not gentle. He suffered immensely from the unrelenting, unbearable heat, but most of all Cooper suffered from his parents' betrayal in his final moments.

At the all important PCH, I mean, surely Ross was desperately wanting free on bond until his trial, and the defense could have called a witness employed by LAA to testify on his behalf, yet didn't. The reason that is important is because of the 3 ph calls JRH made at the CS and that intriguing 6m call to Cooper's classroom at LAA that Ross told LEO that he did not make.

Ross lied and LE knew he lied, at the scene, when they took his phone away and checked his outgoing calls. Also, his outgoing ph calls show a 1m call to LH placed before the 6m call was placed at the CS when JRH was overheard saying into his ph: "Our child is dead." If that is true, then LH knew her child was dead when she walked into LAA and told childcare employees on duty that "Ross must have left him in the car." If so, then she is guilty of a cover up by interfering and attempting to mislead the investigation into the death of her 22mo baby boy.

If LH knew Rs sexting was an addiction problem that kept her husband preoccupied, then she is culpable of child neglect, in my eyes, for not taking responsibility for Cooper's daycare arrival and departures. One thing that's for certain, using the smaller infant's seat assured that Cooper would be tightly restrained during his struggle for life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIKxWMHQbrA

moo and all that jazz

 

[tlcya]

There is no such than as an "appropriate forward facing seat" for a one year old. None. If I had to choose between my toddler forward facing in a seat that he fit according to the manufacturers guidelines, and an infant seat he met the weight limit and one inch rule on, I'd pick the infant seat, even if he was out of the written range.

respectfully snipped for focus by me

I am probably coming into this late and may have missed it, if so apologies, but what one year old? Cooper was 22 months. 2 months shy of his second birthday.

 

[Oblio]

respectfully snipped for focus by me

I am probably coming into this late and may have missed it, if so apologies, but what one year old? Cooper was 22 months. 2 months shy of his second birthday.

The acceptable (by the AAP and NHTSA) bare minimum of safety forward facing is 24 months. That means it is now considered wholly unsafe to forward face a 22 month old. Only in very rare medical or extreme size situations would it be considered acceptable.

 

[Hippiemomof5]

There is no such than as an "appropriate forward facing seat" for a one year old. None. If I had to choose between my toddler forward facing in a seat that he fit according to the manufacturers guidelines, and an infant seat he met the weight limit and one inch rule on, I'd pick the infant seat, even if he was out of the written range.

I agree to this wholeheartedly. HOWEVER, I do not think LH and RH were being safety conscious in this decision, if they were that aware of car seat safety, the straps would have been where they belonged.

 

[LambChop]

If Cooper's head was 3" above the seat, where were his feet? From what I remember of the infant seat it was pretty close to the back seat of the vehicle. If Cooper's feet hung over the seat there would have been no place to hang his feet, they would have to rest on the back seat of the car. There would be no way his feet would be able to hang over the seat because the car seat would have been up against the back seat which could be another thing that RH missed. JMO

 

[LambChop]

All posts are MOO. Sent via Insignia Flex Tablet.

Here is an example with a 33" mannequin in a similar SUV and Cooper, I believe, was 34". You can see his feet would have been right up against the back seat. For a 6 minute ride probably not a big issue but clearly for a long trip it would have been very uncomfortable for the child.

 

[tlcya]

The acceptable (by the AAP and NHTSA) bare minimum of safety forward facing is 24 months. That means it is now considered wholly unsafe to forward face a 22 month old. Only in very rare medical or extreme size situations would it be considered acceptable.

Thank you. I am aware of the new standard for safety. I was just confused as to why a one year old was being used as the example since the usual standard for describing a baby's age is in months until they reach the age of two and 22 months is much closer to two than to one.

So if we want to be technical about it - it is possible that neither the new or the old seats were appropriate. The Keyfit30 may have been inappropriate due to the height weight standard (hard to know without having Cooper's specific info in that regard) that Cooper may have outgrown and he was two months shy of being in the approved age range for the new big boy forward facing.

 

[Hippiemomof5]

Here is an example with a 33" mannequin in a similar SUV and Cooper, I believe, was 34". You can see his feet would have been right up against the back seat. For a 6 minute ride probably not a big issue but clearly for a long trip it would have been very uncomfortable for the child.

Having bent knees due to rear facing isn't uncomfortable for kids. They sit criss-cross, or sometimes throw their legs over the sides of the seat. Kids are far more flexible than we are!

 

[LambChop]

Having bent knees due to rear facing isn't uncomfortable for kids. They sit criss-cross, or sometimes throw their legs over the sides of the seat. Kids are far more flexible than we are!

They also like to kick the back seat because they can. It may be why the big boy seat was purchased for the long trip. I don't see anything wrong for short trips but if children are throwing their legs over the side they are probably doing so for comfort because they are not able to stretch their legs out properly. Most 22 month old children can't verbalize they are uncomfortable other than by showing us physically, like kicking, that they are indeed cramped in their seats. In any case, it appears the 3" above the headrest area was the bigger issue here, even for such a short trip. I was just wondering why RH did not see Cooper's feet which would have been resting on the middle back seat of the car because he would have no other place to put them strapped in so tightly as he was. jmo

 

[Oblio]

Yep, my oldest chose to rear face in a traditional, more constrictive convertible over a modern, more open model when he was three. (Safety 1st uptown over a radian. Ill find pics in a minute.)

 

[Oblio]

http://s65.photobucket.com/user/jka1217/media/Car Seat Pictures/DSCN1448.jpg.html

here are the two models side by side. Radian obviously is a lot roomier, but no, my son liked the uptown.

 

[Hippiemomof5]

They also like to kick the back seat because they can. It may be why the big boy seat was purchased for the long trip. I don't see anything wrong for short trips but if children are throwing their legs over the side they are probably doing so for comfort because they are not able to stretch their legs out properly. Most 22 month old children can't verbalize they are uncomfortable other than by showing us physically, like kicking, that they are indeed cramped in their seats. In any case, it appears the 3" above the headrest area was the bigger issue here, even for such a short trip. I was just wondering why RH did not see Cooper's feet which would have been resting on the middle back seat of the car because he would have no other place to put them strapped in so tightly as he was. jmo

My children have never kicked the back of the seat because they're uncomfortable. As I've said, my four year old still rear faces. She generally sits with her feet criss-cross or her legs pulled up. She's plenty old enough to be verbal (and has been for years) and absolutely would complain if it was an issue for her.

I don't think his feet would be any more visible than his head. Moo

 

[Hippiemomof5]

Yep, my oldest chose to rear face in a traditional, more constrictive convertible over a modern, more open model when he was three. (Safety 1st uptown over a radian. Ill find pics in a minute.)

Ha, we had radians for awhile and my kids hated them. I think they preferred the comfy, cozy feel of the padded sides of the traditional convertible seats. We bought radians when I needed to fit three across the back of my mini van before our youngest was born.

 

[Lovejac]

Here is an example with a 33" mannequin in a similar SUV and Cooper, I believe, was 34". You can see his feet would have been right up against the back seat. For a 6 minute ride probably not a big issue but clearly for a long trip it would have been very uncomfortable for the child.

My twin boys HATED having their legs up against the seat when they were rear facing. They would kick and fuss until they finally fell asleep. It made for some very looooooong road trips.

My singleton boy could have cared less.

 

[LambChop]

Interesting article regarding front vs. rear facing.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...rseat-advice/2011/09/08/gIQAb4cOuK_story.html

 

[Hez]

I know a good bit more than the average parent about car seats, my family and friends call me a "car seat freak," my children rear faced past one before it was recommended and they sat in 5 pt harnesses until they outgrew the weight and now sit in boosters until a shoulder belt fits them correctly. My four year old is petite and still rear faces in a britax 70. I've posted and been involved on car seat boards for over ten years.

RH told LE he knew the make and model, and weight and height restrictions for Cooper's car seat when being questioned. It would make sense that if he knew of and "was practicing" the one inch rule, that's when he would have mentioned it, and perhaps we will learn he did during the trial. If he was truly a devoted, loving, car seat-researching father, he'd have known not to have the straps on the lowest setting, so those things together are contradictory.

Also, someone stated above that the child's shoulders shouldn't grow above the tallest slot, but for rear facing, the straps need to come from below the shoulder, so it's ok if their shoulders are taller than the tallest slot. The strap has to come out of the slot nearest to but not above the shoulder, when rear facing.

Also, and this is opinion, over the course of having five children and becoming a "car seat freak," I have talked ad nauseam about car seats with my husband. When I heard RH knew make and model of the seat, it struck me as very odd for a dad. I asked my husband if he knew our daughter's car seat brand, my 18 year old also chimed in. I had my husband answer first and he said "Graco," and my daughter answered that she agreed. It's a Britax, and there's a label right above my younger daughter's head every time she gets buckled in.

BBM - If this was as much of a concern as RH professes, there also would be evidence of internet searches for the correct car seat settings for a child Cooper's size and age (I'm not aware of any). Instead there are only searches for how long it takes a child to die in a hot car. :gaah:

 

[MzOpinion8d]

The data they mention in this article is comparing 1994 to 1988. Isn't there more recent data for them to use?

 

[annahanna]

There is no such than as an "appropriate forward facing seat" for a one year old. None. If I had to choose between my toddler forward facing in a seat that he fit according to the manufacturers guidelines, and an infant seat he met the weight limit and one inch rule on, I'd pick the infant seat, even if he was out of the written range.

Respectfully Snipped by me

I am not defending RH or LH at all. I do not agree with the car seat laws in GA, but under GA law, a child who is over one year of age and over 20 pounds can legally sit in a forward facing car seat. The law does not conform to current AAP and NHTSA recommendations, but until it is changed, many children under age 2 will continue to legally ride forward facing in GA.

http://consumer.georgia.gov/consumer-topics/child-car-seats
Child car seats age/size limits - about 1/2 way down the page

Also: http://www.gahighwaysafety.org/fullpanel/uploads/files/carseatrecs.pdf

I used to live in Atlanta and my now 21 year old was born there. She rode in a rear facing car seat until she was 2. My friends thought I was crazy.