CASCU Analysis of Crime

[Solace]

Solace, I did post about it on the Crime Library JBR board a while back, but
the question is whether convinced IDIs really want to know the truth.

Lawyers are bound by stricter rules than the police.
Quote:
the Colorado Rules of Professional Conduct state: Rule 4.1 Truthfulness in Statements to Others "In the course of representing a client a lawyer shall not knowingly: a) make a false or misleading statement of fact or law to a third person; or(b) fail to disclose a material fact to a third person when disclosure is necessary to avoid assisting a criminal or fraudulent act by a client, unless disclosure is prohibited by Rule 1.6.

Lawyer Bruce Levin's 'client' here was the people of the Untited States -he acted 'on behalf of the Unites States', together with lawyers Michael Kane and Mitch Morrissey. Levin himself had been at the CBI lab to get he report.
Not only would it have been a violation of professional conduct for Levin to lie to John Ramsey about incriminating fiber evidence against him - it would also have been stupid and risky: for suppose it had come to trial, the prosecution would have to put their 'fiber evidence cards' on the table. Suppose what would have happened if Levin & Co had made it all up: the Ramsey defense would have a had a field day with that non-existing fiber evidence - this could have blown the whole trial apart.
The incriminating fiber evidence agains the Ramseys is a thorn in the IDIs' side, which is why they try to attack it.

I see. But thanks Rash.

 

[Toltec]

I wonder if any of the "houseguests" asked John or Patsy...."Why did you call us and tell us to come over when it specifically says the kidnapper is watching?"

Another thing is this....did LE drive around the neighborhood to see if there were any strange vehicles or persons? What about the strange car John claims he saw? Why didn't he run downstairs and tell the Officers to check it out?

I also agree that Burke was taken away so as not to be witness to his sister being found dead. My belief is that Burke would have found his sister before anyone else. That is how kids are....they are not going to stand around...they are going to go through every nook and cranny of the home.

Once Burke left...it was imperative that John find the body before Melinda and JAR arrive. Again, I would tend to believe JAR would do the same as Burke...tear the house apart.

 

[JMO8778]

I wonder if any of the "houseguests" asked John or Patsy...."Why did you call us and tell us to come over when it specifically says the kidnapper is watching?"

Another thing is this....did LE drive around the neighborhood to see if there were any strange vehicles or persons? What about the strange car John claims he saw? Why didn't he run downstairs and tell the Officers to check it out?

I also agree that Burke was taken away so as not to be witness to his sister being found dead. My belief is that Burke would have found his sister before anyone else. That is how kids are....they are not going to stand around...they are going to go through every nook and cranny of the home.

Once Burke left...it was imperative that John find the body before Melinda and JAR arrive. Again, I would tend to believe JAR would do the same as Burke...tear the house apart.

and/certainly/LE/wouldn't/have/stopped/them/.good.point.though.
he.was.running.out.of.time.bf.the.older.kids.arrived.I.think.that's.why.LA.says.he.started.to.get.nervous.
he.knew.he.was.going.to.have.to.find.her.himself.

 

[Dru]

Ooooh, that is a good point, that the reason JR 'found' JBR's body was to keep Melinda or JAR from being the ones to find her (and possibly notice too many things wrong with the 'scenario,' as I believe FW did?).

I've always believed the RN was written to 'control' the time of the finding of the body. There's that line about "I will call you between 8 and 10 a.m. tomorrow," etc. I think JR figured that the police would arrive, they'd sit and wait until the 10 a.m. deadline had passed, and then the house would be searched.

That's not what happened, though; the house was searched earlier, but JBR wasn't found--not even when FW opened the WC door. It wasn't until just after one in the afternoon that JR 'found' JBR.

When JR slipped and told SL that the body had been found at 11 a.m., I think there was a reason for that. I think that by his initial calculations, that was when he expected the body to be found--an hour or so past the 'expiration' of the RN's kidnapper's deadline. That would give them plenty of time to be out of the house before his older children arrived. As it is, they were rushed, and according to DOI they were just leaving the house (shortly after JBR was found) when the older children pulled up in the taxi.

I find myself wondering if the "11 a.m." timing for the finding of the body didn't have some important medical reason.

 

[Ames]

Ooooh, that is a good point, that the reason JR 'found' JBR's body was to keep Melinda or JAR from being the ones to find her (and possibly notice too many things wrong with the 'scenario,' as I believe FW did?).

I've always believed the RN was written to 'control' the time of the finding of the body. There's that line about "I will call you between 8 and 10 a.m. tomorrow," etc. I think JR figured that the police would arrive, they'd sit and wait until the 10 a.m. deadline had passed, and then the house would be searched.

That's not what happened, though; the house was searched earlier, but JBR wasn't found--not even when FW opened the WC door. It wasn't until just after one in the afternoon that JR 'found' JBR.

When JR slipped and told SL that the body had been found at 11 a.m., I think there was a reason for that. I think that by his initial calculations, that was when he expected the body to be found--an hour or so past the 'expiration' of the RN's kidnapper's deadline. That would give them plenty of time to be out of the house before his older children arrived. As it is, they were rushed, and according to DOI they were just leaving the house (shortly after JBR was found) when the older children pulled up in the taxi.

I find myself wondering if the "11 a.m." timing for the finding of the body didn't have some important medical reason.

I believe that JB's body had been moved...to make it easier to "find" her. JR had know way of knowing that Arndt, or anybody else...would tell them to check the house for things that were out of place. I believe she MAY have been hidden at first....John realized that he was working with a bunch of keystone cops....and they would have NEVER found her in her hiding place. Around 11:00 is possibly when he went down and moved her. I know that he "disappeared" for awhile, and claimed that he checked the mail....Ardnt says that she lost track of him for awhile, at least an hour. John was probaby gettng tired of the police not finding her, so he moved her to make it easier...and then as luck would have it....he got to actually "find" her himself. He went straight to her body....when he was given the chance to "search the house for things out of place". I believe that she was placed in the cellar to keep Burke from waking up, and stumbling across her body...I mean, I believe that the Ramsey's did this...so, why didn't they just leave her in her bedroom?? OR another part of the house.....why drag her all the way to the cellar. An intruder wouldn't have even known that the cellar even existed. I don't for one second believe than an "intruder" came in and had free reign of the house.....and looked around and found stuff that he would need for the murder, tape...rope...etc, write a long RN...and take a tour too. He would have had no idea what time the Ramsey's were coming home...so he would have needed to hide....first thing. Heck, if he was going to take the time to do all of these things, why not take a few extra seconds, and steal a few things, too??? He could have placed these things in his get away car. I mean, he WAS in the house by himself alone for awhile....right? ....... Wrong.

 

[JMO8778]

I find myself wondering if the "11 a.m." timing for the finding of the body didn't have some important medical reason.

good point..if she was killed at 11pm,approx. 12 hrs earlier....is there anything in particular that occurs around 12 hours after death?
B/c the R's do have the 25th on the headstone,although experts est. the time of death to be at or bf 1am.But if they got home,and JB ate the pineapple snack around 9pm...then 11pm could be the approx. time of death?

 

[JMO8778]

..something else to consider is that JR says they left the White's around 9:30(someone correct me if I'm wrong!),and FW says they left around 8:30.Since FW has no reason to lie,JR is giving themselves one less hour of time that night..there has to be a reason for that.And I think it was more than just JB being more likely to fall asleep on the way home at that time.

 

[BOESP]

good point..if she was killed at 11pm,approx. 12 hrs earlier....is there anything in particular that occurs around 12 hours after death?
B/c the R's do have the 25th on the headstone,although experts est. the time of death to be at or bf 1am.But if they got home,and JB ate the pineapple snack around 9pm...then 11pm could be the approx. time of death?

Maybe John read that rigor mortis sets in, under average conditions, in about twelve hours. Maybe they were trying to manipulate conditions so the time of death would be harder to establish???? I don't think they would want an 11:00 PM guesstimate of time of death. That's way too close to the time John said they came home from the White's party.

 

[Toltec]

Maybe she was placed behind the freezer in the boiler room. She had an odor of decay according to Linda Arndt. Everyone knows what an old freezer in a basement smells like...

One theory could be that John removed her from behind the freezer to the wine cellar.

My belief though is that she was moved closer to the door in the wine cellar.

 

[Ames]

Maybe she was placed behind the freezer in the boiler room. She had an odor of decay according to Linda Arndt. Everyone knows what an old freezer in a basement smells like...

One theory could be that John removed her from behind the freezer to the wine cellar.

My belief though is that she was moved closer to the door in the wine cellar.

I agree.

 

[JMO8778]

me too.although she could have been hidden...I do think they planned to get her out of the house at first,but after plans were changed,perhaps the 'SFF' hid her somewhere in the basement,so as to appear to 'deny her remains for proper buriel',as was threatened.

 

[Albert18]

Maybe she was placed behind the freezer in the boiler room. She had an odor of decay according to Linda Arndt. Everyone knows what an old freezer in a basement smells like...

I used to have a chest freezer in my garage that sat directly on the concrete. When you moved that thing by pushing it, it made the most ungodly scraping noise you could imagine.

 

[DeeDee249]

I also agree the the body was moved, though the odor of decay was coming from JBR, not from her being in the freezer. Though not horrendous at that point, decomposition begins in the intestines and bowel within minutes- as soon as oxygen delivery stops in the cells. Anaerobic organisms take over- and the decay process begins, though it would take more than 24 hours indoors in cool weather for putrefication (and the unmistakably strong odor) to begin. So JBR did have the mild beginning stage odor of decay by 12 hours or so after death when she was brought up.
The Rs have stated getting home around 9:30=10pm. They admit making 2-3 stops. If each stop to give gifts lasted 15-20 minutes plus travel time, it actually does fit with the White's timetable of them leaving at 8:30 pm.
I don't think the 11am discovery of the body has a medical basis per se, but any educated person knows that changes occur in a dead body. I think JR needed to have her found - quickly- to prevent the horrific sight of a far more "dead" body. When LE failed to find her, JR had to step in and move the body closer to the wineceller door. When that still didn't work, he had to do it himself. I think his plan was to fly himself and his "remaining family" ( his words) out that morning soon after LE arrived. He never though that he might not be allowed to leave. I think he figured he'd get himself and his family out of the state, and after they left, a more thorough search would turn up the body. Maybe they could fight extradition, maybe not, but the Rs would have distanced themselves immediately from the crime scene.
Wouldn't it be interesting to think what would have happened if they HAD left and someone else discovered the body? Without the obvious theatrics of JR carrying the body and removing the tape and PR throwing herself on the body, what would their lawyers have had to say about fiber evidence on the garrotte, tape, and undies then?
I was always upset when NO ONE seemed to pick up on JR saying he untied the wrists when forensic evidence would have shown whether they had been tightly tied (as he said). There would have been a red mark around the wrists like the mark around her neck. And if they had been tightly tied after death, there would still be a mark, but it would be white (like the marks on her back from the elastic of the panties and long johns).
Livor mortis starts right after death, as soon as the blood stops circulating. If JR moved the body soon after, there would be two patterns of blood settling, and the coroner would have seen this. But livor mortis "sets" after a while and becomes non-blanching (this was mentioned in the autopsy) and by that time even if the body is moved, there will only be the original pattern of blood settling. JBR had only one pattern of livor, indicating she either died on her back or was placed on her back immediately after death. So if her body was moved closer to the door, as I belive it was, it was done after livor had set, which does make the likelyhood of JR moving her the next morning very probable.

 

[JMO8778]

Thomas did pick up on JR lying about the wrists ligatures being tight,when they weren't.I think JR forgot to tie them tightly in the restaging,and it was another opps moment for him.I think she was staged with her arms over her head(any thought on this,anyone?),and rigor had set in by the time she was restaged.It wasn't possible to move them then.So her arm position had to stay..but he forgot tie the ligatures tightly !

 

[Dru]

I was looking around on the internet to see if there would be any reason why the R's would want JBR's body found after 10 a.m. and by about 2 p.m.

I didn't find what I was looking for, but I did find this website: (Please note that it's a PDF file, so don't open it if you have problems with those!)

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf

I'm going to try to post a few of the quotes I thought were really interesting in light of the JBR case:

1.
"If a body is moved before the onset of rigor then the joints will become
fixed in the new position in which the body is placed. For this reason, when a body is
found in a certain position with rigor mortis fully developed, it cannot be assumed that
the deceased necessarily died in that position."

2. (Following a data chart)
"In this series, rigor was complete in 14% of cases at 3 hours post mortem and this
percentage had risen to 72% at 6 hours and to 90% at 9 hours. By 12 hours post mortem
rigor was complete in 98% of cases. "

3.
"Onset is relatively more rapid in children and
the aged than in muscular young adults. It develops early and passes quickly in deaths
from septicaemia or from wasting diseases. It is delayed in asphyxial deaths, notably by
hanging or carbon monoxide poisoning, and also when death has been immediately
preceded by severe haemorrhage."

I think this raises some interesting possibilities, as follows:

1. Was the position JBR's body was found in, complete with wrist ligatures etc., really the position she died in? Or was this position made necessary because her body was initially hidden or moved before rigor had developed, making it necessary to create a scenario of the crime which accounted for her arms being above her head?

2. The data on the website I linked to analyzed several cases and found that in 98% of them rigor was complete by the time 12 hours had passed. When JBR's body was found, I think I read somewhere that rigor was complete. How long prior to 1 p.m. on the 26th was she killed?

3. I doubt the R's would know that rigor developed more quickly in children or might be delayed in the event of hemorrhage or asphyxia (both associated with her death). Either way, it's interesting that on the one hand, JBR's age might have sped up her body's rigor, or her manner of death might have delayed its onset, on the other hand.

I'm sure this has been covered before, but even though I'm not sure if it means anything, it seems interesting.

All along I've thought that the R's estimation of the passage of time on the 25th was weird. You leave a party around 8:30, deliver three packages while standing at the doorway and talking (for fifteen or twenty minutes at each house while your husband and kids sit in the car in the driveway with the motor running? Really?) and don't get home till nearly 10? But you're leaving on a plane at 7 a.m.? But you still take time to help your son put together a toy he got that morning? And you weren't finished packing? But no, nobody had a snack before bed? Especially not pineapple?

More and more I'm suspecting that JBR's tombstone records a moment of unintentional honesty on the part of the R's.

 

[JMO8778]

I was looking around on the internet to see if there would be any reason why the R's would want JBR's body found after 10 a.m. and by about 2 p.m.

I didn't find what I was looking for, but I did find this website: (Please note that it's a PDF file, so don't open it if you have problems with those!)

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf

I'm going to try to post a few of the quotes I thought were really interesting in light of the JBR case:

1.
"If a body is moved before the onset of rigor then the joints will become
fixed in the new position in which the body is placed. For this reason, when a body is
found in a certain position with rigor mortis fully developed, it cannot be assumed that
the deceased necessarily died in that position."

2. (Following a data chart)
"In this series, rigor was complete in 14% of cases at 3 hours post mortem and this
percentage had risen to 72% at 6 hours and to 90% at 9 hours. By 12 hours post mortem
rigor was complete in 98% of cases. "

3.
"Onset is relatively more rapid in children and
the aged than in muscular young adults. It develops early and passes quickly in deaths
from septicaemia or from wasting diseases. It is delayed in asphyxial deaths, notably by
hanging or carbon monoxide poisoning, and also when death has been immediately
preceded by severe haemorrhage."

I think this raises some interesting possibilities, as follows:

1. Was the position JBR's body was found in, complete with wrist ligatures etc., really the position she died in? Or was this position made necessary because her body was initially hidden or moved before rigor had developed, making it necessary to create a scenario of the crime which accounted for her arms being above her head?

2. The data on the website I linked to analyzed several cases and found that in 98% of them rigor was complete by the time 12 hours had passed. When JBR's body was found, I think I read somewhere that rigor was complete. How long prior to 1 p.m. on the 26th was she killed?

3. I doubt the R's would know that rigor developed more quickly in children or might be delayed in the event of hemorrhage or asphyxia (both associated with her death). Either way, it's interesting that on the one hand, JBR's age might have sped up her body's rigor, or her manner of death might have delayed its onset, on the other hand.

I'm sure this has been covered before, but even though I'm not sure if it means anything, it seems interesting.

All along I've thought that the R's estimation of the passage of time on the 25th was weird. You leave a party around 8:30, deliver three packages while standing at the doorway and talking (for fifteen or twenty minutes at each house while your husband and kids sit in the car in the driveway with the motor running? Really?) and don't get home till nearly 10? But you're leaving on a plane at 7 a.m.? But you still take time to help your son put together a toy he got that morning? And you weren't finished packing? But no, nobody had a snack before bed? Especially not pineapple?

More and more I'm suspecting that JBR's tombstone records a moment of unintentional honesty on the part of the R's.

me too,and thx for the research and the post ! From the looks of the photos,it seems Patsy never finished packing,although she and JR deny that by saying Patsy was already in bed bf he got there.But that doesn't leave time in the morning for packing,as late as they said they got up.It seems something happened bf Patsy ever had a chance to go to bed,esp. given the fact she had the same clothes on from the previous night.And given the fiber evidence,I don't think JR ever made it to bed either.It seems BR was the only one who slept that night,and I wonder at what point he was put to bed,had something occcured,or was starting to,by that point?(any thoughts out there?)thx.

 

[Solace]

me too.although she could have been hidden...I do think they planned to get her out of the house at first,but after plans were changed,perhaps the 'SFF' hid her somewhere in the basement,so as to appear to 'deny her remains for proper buriel',as was threatened.

JMO,

Why do you think "they" planned to get her out of the house first? They have to know that the act of taking her body out of the house is going to cause questions. Burke for one. Where is JonBenet? It might have crossed someone's mind, but I think that would be dismissed within the next thought.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO,

Why do you think "they" planned to get her out of the house first? They have to know that the act of taking her body out of the house is going to cause questions. Burke for one. Where is JonBenet? It might have crossed someone's mind, but I think that would be dismissed within the next thought.

I think they panicked at first..not knowing what else to do...as a dead body in the house would most certainly point to them...but put her outside...and the whole world's a suspect.So...she was inflicted w the staged vag. wound,to make it look like a pedo did it..but that was later wiped down,redressed and hidden w the blanket,once they decided to leave her in the WC.

 

[Solace]

I think they panicked at first..not knowing what else to do...as a dead body in the house would most certainly point to them...but put her outside...and the whole world's a suspect.So...she was inflicted w the staged vag. wound,to make it look like a pedo did it..but that was later wiped down,redressed and hidden w the blanket,once they decided to leave her in the WC.

But why would they have had to wipe her down if they were going to leave her in the basement. Why not just leave it the way it was - that is what they claim anyway, a pedo did it. So why did they have to wipe her down just because they decided to leave her n the basement?

I just do not understand why they would have to do that - it would seem it would not matter if she were in the basement or outside, a pedofile is a pedofile. He will do the same thing inside the house or outside. I am not following your reasoning.

 

[Ames]

But why would they have had to wipe her down if they were going to leave her in the basement. Why not just leave it the way it was - that is what they claim anyway, a pedo did it. So why did they have to wipe her down just because they decided to leave her n the basement?

I just do not understand why they would have to do that - it would seem it would not matter if she were in the basement or outside, a pedofile is a pedofile. He will do the same thing inside the house or outside. I am not following your reasoning.

I am wondering if they thought, in their panicked minds, that if they wiped her down, and took out the paintbrush...and re-dressed her...that the investigators would look more at the garotting and maybe the headwound. They may have thought that nobody would notice the injury to her vagina, if they removed the paintbrush and wiped her down. Maybe the Ramsey's were told about the paintbrush and insertion, and when they realized that it HAD been noticed...they had to just go with it. I am just thinking out loud here...I do believe that after the injury to her vagina...they had changed their minds about that part of it....otherwise, they wouldn't have wiped her down, re-dressed her and wrapped her "lovingly" in a blanket, IMO...in their minds....that was their way of trying to UNDO something that they had already did to her.