Casey & Family Psychological Profile #1

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KC doesn't believe she's done anything wrong to distance herself FROM.

If you remove conscience and empathy from the picture, everything she does makes perfect sense. She is a conscienceless creature and to her, there's no distinction between a stolen item and one she purchased conventionally.

You and I would want to get as far away from our own wrongdoings as possible, but we only do it with what we acknowlege as wrong. It's a very subjective thing, some people self flagellate over imagined wrong doings . . . KC is at the other end of the continuum :D .

If she doesn't think she has done anything wrong, why doesn't she tell LE where Caylee is? She says she knows where Caylee is and then she says she doesn't know where Caylee is. Which is it?
 
I don't know much about BPD, or any other disorder, but it seems to me that killing one's child would have to fall under something a little stronger than a personality disorder. I am aware that PD's were once considered a form of mental illness and are no longer. But my opinion is... what IS your personality? It is a part of your mental makeup. IMO, a person would almost HAVE to be at least partially insane in order to murder their own child. I know that there is a difference in being medically insane, and legally insane... but could a person be diagnosed as sane and still have the capabilty to KILL a child? Not all sociopaths are murderers... and not all murderers are sociopaths. They say that true sociopaths have no conscience. I don't know, but IMO, a MOTHER does not just up and kill her baby for NO REASON. If so... then she is EVIL... and that is... INSANITY in its truest form.
 
;2805301 CASEY IS AN ALLEDGED SOCIOPATH; PATHOLOGY STATES SHE RE INVENTS A NEW REALITY EVERY MORNING; THEREFORE said:
Good point. Even on 7/15 Casey tells Lee that "this" should have been taken care of a long time ago when referring to Casey stealing from the family (and probably her habit of lying as well).

Later on we have Casey saying that she can't say who has Caylee for fear that they will hurt the child. Again, Casey tries to set herself up as the victim.

Very baffling psyche! Along with a beautiful, innocent child missing - I think THAT is what has grabbed the public's attention the most. We don't understand it and we are all looking for answers.
 
Dodes anyone remembr of the top of his/her head the date Casey knocked on either Jesse'e or Recardo's door and wanted/needed to take a shower??
 
PadThai,

I totally agree with you about the tight tees -- and Casey's constant wearing of those white sunglasses she bought/stole at Target are also telling, I think.

How arrogant is it, to wear those stolen Target sunglasses in front of the media, everytime she gets the chance?
 
I've scrolled thru this thread, and hope I'm not being redundant here ....

My question: did the videos and grocery receipts, showing Casey using all those coupons, may anyone else wonder about how this fits into her psychological profile?

Two thoughts:

1. It takes a lot of moxie to go and shop at Target with a stolen checkbook AND use coupons, to boot -- is she trying to save Amy some money? LOL

2. It takes a lot of planning, too. I'm still trying to master remembering to check for coupons, organize them, take them with me to the store, etc., etc., and here is Casey - getting quite a lot of discounts with her array of coupons.

My point: I was really shocked to see the coupons, and I think it's quite revealing about how Casey thinks and acts.

Don't ask me how, but it sways me more into the premeditated column, and not the one for accidental death ....

Would love to hear from one of the mental health professionals on this.....
I think Casey was saving herself money. At that point, in her mind, she was spending her money. Amy was no longer in the equation for her, she was merely the means to an end. Casey had become entitled to the money and she understood it was limited. As bizarre as it appears to us, it made perfect sense to her at that moment in time.

I'm not sure if it lends itself in any way to premeditation in the death of Caylee. She obviously has the ability to plan and organize, but her pattern of behavior shows she can also be very impulsive and more often than not "lived for today." Very much a contradiction in behavior...which is true of all of us but it tends to be exaggerated in the personality disorders.
 
Dodes anyone remembr of the top of his/her head the date Casey knocked on either Jesse'e or Recardo's door and wanted/needed to take a shower??

The shower request was to Jesse. Not sure of the date, but it was during the time AL was out of town. I believe that was end of June/first week of July...someone correct me if I'm wrong.
 
And then factor in that *allegedly* Casey did not even initially want the baby. She allegedly hid her pregnancy. She allegedly told people at Kodak that she had "female issues" or a tumor. Kiomarie said [paraphrased] Casey maybe wanted to give Caylee for adoption but that the grandparents nixed it. So, if this is true, perhaps it added the extra chafe when Cindy started complaining to Casey about her mothering skills.

KC hid it as long as she could because she knew her parents would be angry. Most parents do not want their young adult children to start having babies before they can care for them. They are angry at first, but eventually they come around and accept it and even get excited about having a grandchild.

I personally doubt that Cindy would have wanted her daughter to put the grand baby up for adoption. Cindy and George probably persuaded KC to go ahead and keep the baby, that they would help her raise the child. The problem came when Cindy and George had to work full time jobs and KC was stuck "babysitting" her own child. She expected her parents to do it ALL. If only KC would have understood that nothing is permanent. Soon enough, little Caylee would have started school and her days would be free from babysitting.

CA and GA seemed to have no problem caring for Caylee as long as KC was working. I imagine they wouldn't have minded caring for Caylee while KC went out once in a while. But the lying, the excessive partying, that is why CA had enough. She wanted her daughter to be a "good" Mom but KC just didn't have it in her.

I'm not sure where it was said that Cindy complained about KC's mothering skills. Cindy probably did tell her daughter that she shouldn't be out partying, getting drunk, sleeping around, while leaving her daughter with babysitters and grandparents. I don't consider these things "mothering skills".
 
Quote by Jolynna: I know from personal experience that people with antisocial disorder can be extremely intelligent, charming, loving, witty and full of potential yet also be extremely stupid. Impulse control is almost non existant. And they DON'T cover up.They just lie.

Yesterday my husband kicked our nephew out of our house. The nephew won't be welcome to return.

We took nephew in about a month ago after both of his parents threw him out for stealing. Like Casey he was one credit short of graduating from high school. His drivers license was suspended.

The nephew followed my husband around like a lost puppy. We felt really sorry for him. We paid his 3 speeding tickets. We made an appointment with a shrink. We worked out a program with the school so he could get a degree.

But, tools started disappearing from my husband's workshop at the same time nephew had friends pick him up. Money disappeared. Yesterday morning my kindle (e-book, online access thing) disappeared. It was in nephews pantleg.

Caught RED-HANDED nephew lied and said he didn't know how it got there. "Honest to G-d, I didn't take it," he said. And he was so upset and so sincere, I actually thought for a moment..."What IF???"

We took 19 yr. old nephew to his fathers. The bio dad told nephew to go to a homeless mission.

Last night nephew and one of his friends tried to break into our house because we'd had plans to go out and he thought we'd be gone. (I think like Casey he thought breaking in and getting things he wanted was ok.)

Today I talked to nephew's bio mom who said nephew can't live with her because she is afraid of him. Evidently the mom is sneaking into nephews private myspace as a friend.She says he blogs about killing her.

Like Casey,nephew is smart, young, attractive and actually very sweet. But, he cannot control his impulses and he is not right.

I have been reading about Casey since July. I have been reading about enabling and sociopaths and personality disorders. But, for most of us the desire to help a young person in need is very strong. I didn't want to take everyone else's word about this nice young man. I thought love could fix it.

Today, I have been reading more. The prognosis is poor even with the help of available resources.

I wonder if when Cindy looks at Casey she sees what Casey could have been and feels the same kind of despair I am feeling today when I think about nephew? I feel guilty like I've dropped a sick dog off at the pound that was crying and wanting to get back in the car.

And Kikki the Parrot is so right about people like Casey seeing themselves as the VICTIM. I have no doubt nephew blames my husband and I for everlything that happened.


Bold mine.

Sorry about all of this, it is heartbreaking when you were longing to help. This is all sadly familiar. I've had similar experiences with a (narcissistic) teenaged family member. Their blameshifting and "victimhood" legitimizes their real victimization of others (like KC justifying her stealing from AH). Some serious "projecting" going on there. Amazing in their own minds they're the ones being wronged! But such is the pattern of narcissistic people--once you've served or outlived their purposes for you, they will chew you up and spit you out, forgetting every kindness ever shown to them. I really hope this isn't the case with your nephew, but it is eerily reminiscent of CA's post on her myspace:


"Jealousy has taken her away. Jealousy from the one person that should be thankfull for all of the love and support given to her. A mother’s love is deep, however there are limits when one is betrayed by the one she loved and trusted the most. A daughter comes to her mother for support when she is pregnant, the mother says without hesitation it will be ok. And it was. But then the lies and betrayal began. First it seemed harmless, ah, love is blind. A mother will look for the good in her child and give them a chance to change. This mother gave chance after chance for her daughter to change, but instead more lies more betrayal. What does the mother get for giving her daughter all of these chances? A broken heart."

Sam Vaknin, author and authority on narcissism writes about this failure to discipline and misguided (however well-intentioned) notion of "love:"

'Others prefer to believe in the healing power of love or some such other nonsense. It is nonsense not because love has no therapeutic power – it is by far the most powerful weapon in the healing arsenal. It is nonsense because it is wasted on a human shell, incapable of feeling anything but negative emotions, which vaguely filter through his dreamlike existence. The narcissist is unable to love, his emotional apparatus ruined by years of deprivation, abuse, misuse and disuse.

Granted, the narcissist is a consummate manipulator of human emotions and their attendant behaviours. He is convincing, he is deviously successful and sweeps everyone around him into the turbulent delusion which he consists of. He uses anything and anyone to secure his dose of Narcissistic Supply and discards, without hesitation those he deems "useless".'


Pretty harsh. IMO personally I think even Vaknin misses the mark here, and many of us (especially parents) are simply in need of a better working definition of love. Because every parent who loves their child disciplines them. Yet how often, in trying to spare children consequences, we confuse accountability with unforgiveness, or equate love with licentiousness. JMHUO (unprofessional)
 
I think Laneymae is right. Casey lives on impulse. The psychologist Sandra Marshall talked about Casey as contact dependent. She may suck the life out of the moment, who and what is in front of her is all that counts, but she has no view in time nor place of anything beyond that and cannot plan her way around the corner. This is a tough mind set to get into because it is so unnatural. It allows her to say to Cindy, "Just give me until tomorrow. I'll take you to her (Caylee) tomorrow." And she did promise that when Cindy was calling 911. Now she could not deliver on that but tomorrow had no reality to her. She never believed she would lead the police all the way to her office and have to admit there was no office. I guess it is preserving her sanity now as she compiles her Media Coverage folio and works from 10-4 on her defense. She who rails at confinement is not acquainted with what the near future holds for her in that regard because she doesn't "see" it. Due to a variety of deeds and utterances, I think she sees herself as a devil, not a victim. She did say she's got a big ticket to hell with her name written all over it. A victim is always at least one down and that is a feeling Casey doesn't tolerate. She doesn't even want to stay level. She wants to be one UP. She has convinced herself that even now, facing capital indictment, she's got it covered, thus the switching strut wearing the prizes she stole. That brash assertion in her interview, "I will lie, cheat and steal to find my daughter!" haunts me. That was one more time to ask how does that help find Caylee? Missed opportunity.
 
KC hid it as long as she could because she knew her parents would be angry. Most parents do not want their young adult children to start having babies before they can care for them. They are angry at first, but eventually they come around and accept it and even get excited about having a grandchild.

I personally doubt that Cindy would have wanted her daughter to put the grand baby up for adoption. Cindy and George probably persuaded KC to go ahead and keep the baby, that they would help her raise the child. The problem came when Cindy and George had to work full time jobs and KC was stuck "babysitting" her own child. She expected her parents to do it ALL. If only KC would have understood that nothing is permanent. Soon enough, little Caylee would have started school and her days would be free from babysitting.

CA and GA seemed to have no problem caring for Caylee as long as KC was working. I imagine they wouldn't have minded caring for Caylee while KC went out once in a while. But the lying, the excessive partying, that is why CA had enough. She wanted her daughter to be a "good" Mom but KC just didn't have it in her.

I'm not sure where it was said that Cindy complained about KC's mothering skills. Cindy probably did tell her daughter that she shouldn't be out partying, getting drunk, sleeping around, while leaving her daughter with babysitters and grandparents. I don't consider these things "mothering skills".

As mother of a twenty year-old daughter and grandmother to her adorable little two-year old daughter, I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, CA won't give KC "permission" to relinquish parental responsibility (by refusing to allow KC to adopt out Caylee as KC had planned). KC knows and admits she isn't prepared to make the sacrifices of parenting. Despite this, CA talks KC out of giving away "her grandchild" so it could be argued CA should therefore assume responsibility. And not only by footing the bill or assuming custodial responsibilities when it's convenient for her, as she goes along steadily reminding KC of all she's doing, particularly while it is also gratifying her needs (as a narcissistic parent is liable to do). On the other hand (as we so often see as one generation of narcissism breeds another) KC was guilty of the very same thing, determined over CA's protests to prove she occasionally CAN be a capable mom (when it doesn't interfere with her lifestyle, or when vying for power over CA). So when CA finally throws up her hands and threatens to kick KC out but tells her to leave Caylee, KC objects but again is not thinking of Caylee. TOO OFTEN IN THIS TWISTED POWER STRUGGLE BETWEEN THESE TWO NARCISSISTIC WOMEN, CAYLEE'S NEEDS AND WELLBEING FELL THROUGH THE CRACKS. Which is the definition of narcissistic parenting--parent-centered, versus child-centered, parenting. Hearbreaking. JMO
 
Quote: KC hid it as long as she could because she knew her parents would be angry.

And like the pregnancy, KC is still above all worried abut hiding the truth from her mother. And admitted as much to both LA, and LE. JMO
 
On one hand, CA won't give KC "permission" to relinquish parental responsibility (by refusing to allow KC to adopt out Caylee as KC had planned). KC knows and admits she isn't prepared to make the sacrifices of parenting. Despite this, CA talks KC out of giving away "her grandchild" so it could be argued CA should therefore assume responsibility. [/COLOR][/FONT]

I have heard it stated before the CA refused to allow adoption but I personally believe this is conjecture. Is there a link to this as fact? CA may have encouraged KC to keep the baby by assuring her that they would help her, but ultimately it was KC's decision.

I believe the A's did assume most responsibility by providing every thing that baby needed. Wasn't there some talk somewhere about how CA was going to get full custody of Caylee?
 
I have heard it stated before the CA refused to allow adoption but I personally believe this is conjecture. Is there a link to this as fact? CA may have encouraged KC to keep the baby by assuring her that they would help her, but ultimately it was KC's decision.

I believe the A's did assume most responsibility by providing every thing that baby needed. Wasn't there some talk somewhere about how CA was going to get full custody of Caylee?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/26/caylee.mom.bond.ap/index.html

"Casey Anthony tried to give her missing 3-year-old daughter up for adoption before she was born, but her mother wouldn't let her, according to legal documents..."

(Just one of a gazillion reports to this effect.) You're assuming CA ever gave KC a "voice" in life, or actual say in this situation. Yet narcissistic parents don't even see their children as individuals, but merely as "extensions" of themselves. And yes I believe explosive argument reportedly on Father's Day--where CA decides to act like a parent and confronts her re stealing from her parents (KC's grandparents) there are finally threats to do just that--to take custody of Caylee altogether, while kicking KC out. When KC says in interview though, "If I'd wanted to be free of Caylee, I would've just left and given custody to my parents," I'm convinced this is exactly what KC didn't want. Caylee was to each--but particularly to totally self-absorbed KC--a pawn in this game of their's, with the tragic price ultimately paid by Caylee.
 
Just want to add that I'm ITA with theory about KC's envy of AH, not sure though whether this was more jealousy re Ricardo or just frustration at not being able to abandon Caylee, and travel with childless friends to PR. This is to my mind the only possible motive we've seen really for anything premeditated. To prove this theory the State of course will have to prove this fantasy was acted upon. JMHO
 
Kiki, the source for this is CASEY. Casey told Kiomare that her mother wouldn't let her give up Caylee for adoption.

From the story: "I said ... 'I'm strongly considering adopting the baby from you.' (Casey Anthony) said, 'That's a good idea,"' Cruz said in a police transcript. "But then she called me back saying that her mom pretty much has told her that no, she needs to keep the baby and that she's not giving it up for adoption. Even though she really did not want to have the baby."

I do agree that KC wouldn't give up custody of Caylee without CA and GA fighting for it. Caylee was her meal ticket and she could easily manipulate her parents with the baby. If CA went for custody, she would have had to drag all sorts of dirty laundry out, and probably prosecute KC for theft. Not many parents want to go to those extremes but in hindsight, this may have saved Caylee's life.
 
She had Amy's car for a week and AL's jeep for the time he was gone also..so she was not always in the pontiac. I bet the squirrel excuse was used if she did have to explain the smell.

I have always wondered about the shower she asked to take at JG's house too....don't remember exact date...

She had the two cars in July...after the deed was (allegedly) done. Recall, her own car was abandoned by the 27th. The smell had to have begun within the 12 days prior to that, and she starts mentioning it to Amy in txts that can be verified on June 25th. The only thing we can assume safely is that by the time the car was towed on the 30th, the source of the smell (minus the bio-matter left over) was no longer in the car. We know she had Tony's jeep as early as the 30th of June. She took Tony to the airport that morning for his 10 a.m. flight. Casey showers at Jesse's on July 1st (here's the link to one of the many timelines: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2730111
 
There is no such difference between a sociopath and a psychopath
Actually, there is a vast difference between sociopathy and psychopathy. For starters, psychopathy is on a different pathological taxon from sociopathy and its related Axis II, Cluster B disorders. Secondly, there is a measured neurophysiological difference. Moreover, while personal gain may be a motivator, unlike aspd & sociopathy, it is not required. And finally, there appears to be genetic difference as well.

To better understand why this distinction is important, let's first take a look at the Axis II, Cluster B taxon, specifically, antisocial personality disorder (aspd). By its very definition, these people purposefully violate sociolegal norms, often for personal gain. People dx'd with aspd will more likely than not have a history of criminal misconduct that began in their early teenage years. In other words, were either dx'd w/conduct disorder as a juvenile or had plenty of markers indicating that they met the criteria for conduct disorder as a juvenile.

Those w/sociopathic tendencies on the other hand aren't necessarily as blatant as their aspd kinfolk. While these type also violate sociolegal norms for personal gain, they have begun to fine tune their behavior such that they are much more likely to avoid detection and/or arrest. Unlike psychopathy however both aspd & sociopathy have underlying motivators that involve personal gain which in turn, trumps empathy. In other words, these people engage in a process of rationalization and objectification that allows them obviate whatever guilt they may feel as it pertains to hurting others.

Which brings us to the taxonal pathology that people (esp talking heads) seem to toss about with wild abandon when discussing criminal behaviors as they pertain to high profile crimes: psychopathy.

For starters, neurophysiological research indicates a significant correlation between psychopathy and elevated dopamine, noreprinephrine, & testosterone levels, while showing low serotonin levels. Furthermore, unlike the aspd & sociopathy, these types can go undetected for years. In other words, those who score high on Hare's PCL-R have mastered the art of being very engaging, likeable, and trustworthy, while having no real emotional connection with people.

These are the type that few, if any would suspect of engaging in petty, much less egregious, criminal behavior. Two of the most well-known examples are Ted Bundy & Jeffrey Dahmer. Recall, the former was able to lure his victims using the "broken arm" ruse, whereas the latter was able to convince LE to hand his victim over. In other words, the common characteristic for those who fall under the psychopathy taxon is that no one saw them coming.

How is it then, that psychopaths are able to move about, so seemingly invisible? That is, unless they strike? To explain this, Hervley Cleckly makes an interesting analogy in his book, "The Mask of Sanity," by generalizing psychopathy to Henry Head's 1926 term "Semantic Aphasia." Others have gone on to fine tune that analogy with the definition, "they know the words but not the music." In other words, unlike your wannabe psychopaths (i.e., antisocial and/or sociopathic types), these guys are the real thing. They're your true chameleons who may (or not) prey upon an unsuspecting public.

Moreover, contrary to popular opinion, not all psychopaths are killers, nor do they all engage in illegal behaviors, or do nasty, mean, but perfectly legal things to others. In other words, psychopaths who do not engage in behaviors that can be even remotely considered illegal and/or offensive, are referred to as ambulatory psychopaths.

This distinction bears itself out when considering the "Macdonald Triad" (i.e., enuresis, firesetting, & torturing small animals) to predict aspd, sociopathy, & psychopathy. Although this triad was coined in the mid 1960s, it has yet to live up to its hype. Why might that be? Simple. Unlike aspd & sociopathy, psychopathy does not require a history of aberrant and/or sadistic social behavior. Nor does it require a motivator. Therefore, by indiscriminately glomming all three of them (i.e., aspd, sociopathy, & psychopathy) together you end up with extremely poor predictive results that fail in the validity and reliability dept.

And finally, as Hare so noted in his book, "Without Conscience," psychopaths hail from all social strata and environs. Again, unlike aspd & sociopathy, which appear to include reactive behaviors as they pertain to environmental factors, a psychopath can come from a leave it to beaver home life with no indication of bullying and/or other abusive relationships while growing up. This is where the genetic bit may come into play. And though it has yet to be proven, geneticists believe psychopathic predisposition is due to a missing key genetic component that allows society at large to coexist in a meaningful and fulfilling way with each other: empathy.
 
PadThai,

I totally agree with you about the tight tees -- and Casey's constant wearing of those white sunglasses she bought/stole at Target are also telling, I think.

How arrogant is it, to wear those stolen Target sunglasses in front of the media, everytime she gets the chance?

I know! Especially after the first arrest in the 82 hoodie! My first reaction would have been to ditch all of it but she sports her stolen gear like this is Project Runway: Pre-Inmate Season Clearance.
 
PadThai,

I totally agree with you about the tight tees -- and Casey's constant wearing of those white sunglasses she bought/stole at Target are also telling, I think.

How arrogant is it, to wear those stolen Target sunglasses in front of the media, everytime she gets the chance?

And what about those black & white tennis shoes? I think it's the same as that smug smirk she has on her face when she's being escorted somewhere in handcuffs wearing that blue shirt with "82" on it (another Target purchase). It's like arrogant taunts, as well as thumbing her nose at authority.
 
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