Casey & Family Psychological Profile #1

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Aprilshowers-

I see Borderline features in Casey as well.. she tries real hard to cover up her insecurities but those Borderline issues are glaring in what others see as simply Narcissistic behaviors.

Thanks again for sharing in what is a daily struggle with your issues with BPD, to help us better understand the actions of one who suffers from the illness. As I feel Casey has many Borderline features.
 
Actually, there is a vast difference between sociopathy and psychopathy. For starters, psychopathy is on a different pathological taxon from sociopathy and its related Axis II, Cluster B disorders. Secondly, there is a measured neurophysiological difference. Moreover, while personal gain may be a motivator, unlike aspd & sociopathy, it is not required. And finally, there appears to be genetic difference as well.

To better understand why this distinction is important, let's first take a look at the Axis II, Cluster B taxon, specifically, antisocial personality disorder (aspd). By its very definition, these people purposefully violate sociolegal norms, often for personal gain. People dx'd with aspd will more likely than not have a history of criminal misconduct that began in their early teenage years. In other words, were either dx'd w/conduct disorder as a juvenile or had plenty of markers indicating that they met the criteria for conduct disorder as a juvenile.

Those w/sociopathic tendencies on the other hand aren't necessarily as blatant as their aspd kinfolk. While these type also violate sociolegal norms for personal gain, they have begun to fine tune their behavior such that they are much more likely to avoid detection and/or arrest. Unlike psychopathy however both aspd & sociopathy have underlying motivators that involve personal gain which in turn, trumps empathy. In other words, these people engage in a process of rationalization and objectification that allows them obviate whatever guilt they may feel as it pertains to hurting others.

Which brings us to the taxonal pathology that people (esp talking heads) seem to toss about with wild abandon when discussing criminal behaviors as they pertain to high profile crimes: psychopathy.

For starters, neurophysiological research indicates a significant correlation between psychopathy and elevated dopamine, noreprinephrine, & testosterone levels, while showing low serotonin levels. Furthermore, unlike the aspd & sociopathy, these types can go undetected for years. In other words, those who score high on Hare's PCL-R have mastered the art of being very engaging, likeable, and trustworthy, while having no real emotional connection with people.

These are the type that few, if any would suspect of engaging in petty, much less egregious, criminal behavior. Two of the most well-known examples are Ted Bundy & Jeffrey Dahmer. Recall, the former was able to lure his victims using the "broken arm" ruse, whereas the latter was able to convince LE to hand his victim over. In other words, the common characteristic for those who fall under the psychopathy taxon is that no one saw them coming.

How is it then, that psychopaths are able to move about, so seemingly invisible? That is, unless they strike? To explain this, Hervley Cleckly makes an interesting analogy in his book, "The Mask of Sanity," by generalizing psychopathy to Henry Head's 1926 term "Semantic Aphasia." Others have gone on to fine tune that analogy with the definition, "they know the words but not the music." In other words, unlike your wannabe psychopaths (i.e., antisocial and/or sociopathic types), these guys are the real thing. They're your true chameleons who may (or not) prey upon an unsuspecting public.

Moreover, contrary to popular opinion, not all psychopaths are killers, nor do they all engage in illegal behaviors, or do nasty, mean, but perfectly legal things to others. In other words, psychopaths who do not engage in behaviors that can be even remotely considered illegal and/or offensive, are referred to as ambulatory psychopaths.

This distinction bears itself out when considering the "Macdonald Triad" (i.e., enuresis, firesetting, & torturing small animals) to predict aspd, sociopathy, & psychopathy. Although this triad was coined in the mid 1960s, it has yet to live up to its hype. Why might that be? Simple. Unlike aspd & sociopathy, psychopathy does not require a history of aberrant and/or sadistic social behavior. Nor does it require a motivator. Therefore, by indiscriminately glomming all three of them (i.e., aspd, sociopathy, & psychopathy) together you end up with extremely poor predictive results that fail in the validity and reliability dept.

And finally, as Hare so noted in his book, "Without Conscience," psychopaths hail from all social strata and environs. Again, unlike aspd & sociopathy, which appear to include reactive behaviors as they pertain to environmental factors, a psychopath can come from a leave it to beaver home life with no indication of bullying and/or other abusive relationships while growing up. This is where the genetic bit may come into play. And though it has yet to be proven, geneticists believe psychopathic predisposition is due to a missing key genetic component that allows society at large to coexist in a meaningful and fulfilling way with each other: empathy.


As always- thank you for the information!
 
Actually, there is a vast difference between sociopathy and psychopathy. <snip for space>
I'm not sure what literature you are basing your opinion on but you are discussing differences based upon ? theory. Please provide a link so we can have some background on this information. There is no such difference recognized in the DSM Axis II cluster B diagnostic categories. "The official stance of the American Psychiatric Association as presented in the DSM-IV-TR is that psychopathy and sociopathy are obsolete synonyms for antisocial personality disorder."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder
 
HI OLG :) IMO, it's not necessarily about placing blame as much as it is trying to understand and get into the mind of someone like Casey and understand their behavior.

You have to keep in mind while trying to put yourself inside KC's head that the symptoms of some personality disorders are impulsivity and recklessness.

Rules of logic don't apply. The disorders often manifest themselves through dangerous and downright stupid actions.

But, you also can't excuse the behavior BECAUSE while those with personality disorders don't have empathy for others to keep their greed and selfishisness in check, they DO have the intellectual ability to know right from wrong.
 
Grounded Teen Gets 25 to Life for Mom's Murder

http://www.ktla.com/landing_topstor...o-Life-for-Moms-M=1&blockID=93160&feedID=1198

"I don't care what the jury thought. I did not do that to my mother," Mullenix, 19, told Orange County Superior Court Judge David Thompson.

"I can't even believe this is happening to me."

Despite a jury's verdict of first-degree murder in July and her admission that she helped cover up the slaying of her 56-year-old mother, Mullenix continued to insist that she did not inflict any of the 52 wounds found on Barbara Mullenix's body, which included a slashed jugular vein and a butter knife in the eye.

Still, as tears rolled from her eyes, Mullenix described her mother as "my world" and "my life" and said she woke with guilt in her jail cell every morning.

"Even though I didn't do it," she said, "I feel like I didn't do enough to prevent it."
 
Kiki, the source for this is CASEY. Casey told Kiomare that her mother wouldn't let her give up Caylee for adoption.

From the story: "I said ... 'I'm strongly considering adopting the baby from you.' (Casey Anthony) said, 'That's a good idea,"' Cruz said in a police transcript. "But then she called me back saying that her mom pretty much has told her that no, she needs to keep the baby and that she's not giving it up for adoption. Even though she really did not want to have the baby."

I do agree that KC wouldn't give up custody of Caylee without CA and GA fighting for it. Caylee was her meal ticket and she could easily manipulate her parents with the baby. If CA went for custody, she would have had to drag all sorts of dirty laundry out, and probably prosecute KC for theft. Not many parents want to go to those extremes but in hindsight, this may have saved Caylee's life.

Yeah, I don't take that bit of information as fact either. Anything that came out of Casey's mouth and has not beeen verified by anyone, to me is not fact.
 
Please review the available documents and tape recordings regarding this case.

1. Phone records do NOT indicate a call from any such person that day or within the time frame she said she recvd the call.
2. Photos of the ONLY Zanaida who went to Sawgrass to look at apts. were NOT recognized by Casey when LE asked her if she recognized 'this person'. The authorities/LE were NOT caught in deception. They simply said that a so called NANNY named Zanaida did NOT exist.
3. When Casey uses the word 'actually', know that it is actually a lie that follows.
4. Yeah, and in your last sentence you wrote " one thing Casey said was not a lie". You recognize she is possibly capable of saying ONE thing that might not be a lie. What do you call all the other dialogue/lies she admits to?





911: Can you tell me what's going on?
Casey: My daughter's been missing for the last 31 days.
911: And you know who has her?
Casey: I know who has her. I've tried to contact her. I actually received a phone call today from a number that is no longer in service. I did get to speak to my daughter for about a moment. About a minute.




I edited that and changed a little bit of the wording. The word "actually" now makes perfect sense. She actually received a phone call from a number that is no longer in service. Actually is referring to the fact that the number is now no longer in service.

The words say she spoke to the nanny and spoke to Caylee. Casey says not everything she said was a lie.

It's reasonable to assume she did receive the phone call and now the nanny has very mysteriously disappeared. (Casey referred to the fact that she received a phone call and suddenly the number was no longer in service. Casey wouldn't have known at that time to construct a lie about the number being suddenly no longer in service.) That is mysterious.

The authorities denied the nanny existed. But when Zeniada turned up, and was connected to where Casey said she was, no big deal was made of the fact that LE had been vehemently dening Zeniada exists. When the authorities are caught in deception, no one gets upset. They said no Zeniada existed, now here she is. Was LE incapable of finding this woman who actually does exist? Now that she turns up, Zeniada denies she even knows Casey, and besides that, there has been no report of a confirmation from Casey whether this is or isn't the woman Casey has been talking about.

If she is the right Zeniada, Casey has to find someone to prove she was the nanny. If she is not, why did LE deny a Zeniada that fits the description exists?

This is a much bigger mystery than what is obvious.

If LE now feels they need to produce a Zeniada, maybe it has something to do with records about the car wreck, which would definitely prove one thing Casey has said wasn't a lie.
 
shadowraiths, your painstaking explanation of some fine differences is appreciated. Even if some distinctions were discarded ( more than wikipedia needed for that conclusion), those distinctions are extremely useful, including the chemical variance in the psychopath's brain and the behavioral differences you described. If it was just a bunch of jargon labels being thrown around, I'd say to hell with it too but you presented a way of catergorising observable ways of distinguishing disorders and diseases that are valuable in prediction and in examining a subject's history and analysing it.
 
You have to keep in mind while trying to put yourself inside KC's head that the symptoms of some personality disorders are impulsivity and recklessness.

Rules of logic don't apply. The disorders often manifest themselves through dangerous and downright stupid actions.

But, you also can't excuse the behavior BECAUSE while those with personality disorders don't have empathy for others to keep their greed and selfishisness in check, they DO have the intellectual ability to know right from wrong.

This post should be a sticky about why a Personality disorder cannot be used in a insanity defense..
 
Snipped...

If she is the right Zeniada, Casey has to find someone to prove she was the nanny. If she is not, why did LE deny a Zeniada that fits the description exists?

This is a much bigger mystery than what is obvious.

...snipped

I don't think that is a mystery.

Casey couldn't say THIS Zenaida was absolutely the ONE. That would tie her story down too specifically.

THIS Zenaida might have an airtight alibi for the day Casey said Caylee was kidnapped. It was safer to give her story some wriggle room.

IMO
 
I honestly don't think KC used manufacturers coupons. I believe it was in store specials/coupons that came up on the Target receipt. Normally a coupon at Target is scanned at the end and comes up at the end of the register receipt and states manufacturer coupons.
 
Actually, there is a vast difference between sociopathy and psychopathy. For starters, psychopathy is on a different pathological taxon from sociopathy and its related Axis II, Cluster B disorders. Secondly, there is a measured neurophysiological difference. Moreover, while personal gain may be a motivator, unlike aspd & sociopathy, it is not required. And finally, there appears to be genetic difference as well.

To better understand why this distinction is important, let's first take a look at the Axis II, Cluster B taxon, specifically, antisocial personality disorder (aspd). By its very definition, these people purposefully violate sociolegal norms, often for personal gain. People dx'd with aspd will more likely than not have a history of criminal misconduct that began in their early teenage years. In other words, were either dx'd w/conduct disorder as a juvenile or had plenty of markers indicating that they met the criteria for conduct disorder as a juvenile.

Those w/sociopathic tendencies on the other hand aren't necessarily as blatant as their aspd kinfolk. While these type also violate sociolegal norms for personal gain, they have begun to fine tune their behavior such that they are much more likely to avoid detection and/or arrest. Unlike psychopathy however both aspd & sociopathy have underlying motivators that involve personal gain which in turn, trumps empathy. In other words, these people engage in a process of rationalization and objectification that allows them obviate whatever guilt they may feel as it pertains to hurting others.

Which brings us to the taxonal pathology that people (esp talking heads) seem to toss about with wild abandon when discussing criminal behaviors as they pertain to high profile crimes: psychopathy.

For starters, neurophysiological research indicates a significant correlation between psychopathy and elevated dopamine, noreprinephrine, & testosterone levels, while showing low serotonin levels. Furthermore, unlike the aspd & sociopathy, these types can go undetected for years. In other words, those who score high on Hare's PCL-R have mastered the art of being very engaging, likeable, and trustworthy, while having no real emotional connection with people.

These are the type that few, if any would suspect of engaging in petty, much less egregious, criminal behavior. Two of the most well-known examples are Ted Bundy & Jeffrey Dahmer. Recall, the former was able to lure his victims using the "broken arm" ruse, whereas the latter was able to convince LE to hand his victim over. In other words, the common characteristic for those who fall under the psychopathy taxon is that no one saw them coming.

How is it then, that psychopaths are able to move about, so seemingly invisible? That is, unless they strike? To explain this, Hervley Cleckly makes an interesting analogy in his book, "The Mask of Sanity," by generalizing psychopathy to Henry Head's 1926 term "Semantic Aphasia." Others have gone on to fine tune that analogy with the definition, "they know the words but not the music." In other words, unlike your wannabe psychopaths (i.e., antisocial and/or sociopathic types), these guys are the real thing. They're your true chameleons who may (or not) prey upon an unsuspecting public.

Moreover, contrary to popular opinion, not all psychopaths are killers, nor do they all engage in illegal behaviors, or do nasty, mean, but perfectly legal things to others. In other words, psychopaths who do not engage in behaviors that can be even remotely considered illegal and/or offensive, are referred to as ambulatory psychopaths.

This distinction bears itself out when considering the "Macdonald Triad" (i.e., enuresis, firesetting, & torturing small animals) to predict aspd, sociopathy, & psychopathy. Although this triad was coined in the mid 1960s, it has yet to live up to its hype. Why might that be? Simple. Unlike aspd & sociopathy, psychopathy does not require a history of aberrant and/or sadistic social behavior. Nor does it require a motivator. Therefore, by indiscriminately glomming all three of them (i.e., aspd, sociopathy, & psychopathy) together you end up with extremely poor predictive results that fail in the validity and reliability dept.

And finally, as Hare so noted in his book, "Without Conscience," psychopaths hail from all social strata and environs. Again, unlike aspd & sociopathy, which appear to include reactive behaviors as they pertain to environmental factors, a psychopath can come from a leave it to beaver home life with no indication of bullying and/or other abusive relationships while growing up. This is where the genetic bit may come into play. And though it has yet to be proven, geneticists believe psychopathic predisposition is due to a missing key genetic component that allows society at large to coexist in a meaningful and fulfilling way with each other: empathy.

shadowraiths, I read the BRACE Character Profile on Casey Anthony on the crimsonshadows.net site. Very, very interesting. A great read for everyone in this thread. http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/168/

Edited to add that I just found out that this link is actually already posted up-thread. Oh well, it's good enuf to bear a repeat.
 
I don't know much about BPD, or any other disorder, but it seems to me that killing one's child would have to fall under something a little stronger than a personality disorder. I am aware that PD's were once considered a form of mental illness and are no longer. But my opinion is... what IS your personality? It is a part of your mental makeup. IMO, a person would almost HAVE to be at least partially insane in order to murder their own child. I know that there is a difference in being medically insane, and legally insane... but could a person be diagnosed as sane and still have the capabilty to KILL a child? Not all sociopaths are murderers... and not all murderers are sociopaths. They say that true sociopaths have no conscience. I don't know, but IMO, a MOTHER does not just up and kill her baby for NO REASON. If so... then she is EVIL... and that is... INSANITY in its truest form.

No...

You don't have to be insane to do evil.

Black widows kill innocent men for money. Obsessed women like Susan Smith and Diane Downs kill their children to get a man. Who knows why Darlie did it?

Every one of those women was able to function. Friends and family say they were good people. Darlie and Susan were said to be doting and good mothers. These women could make friends. They knew how to charm when necessary.

They CHOSE to do what they did. They aren't mentally ill. No compulsions forced the behaviors.

You can lack the empathy for others, be selfish and greedy and still CHOOSE not to kill or steal.

IMO
 
I honestly don't think KC used manufacturers coupons. I believe it was in store specials/coupons that came up on the Target receipt. Normally a coupon at Target is scanned at the end and comes up at the end of the register receipt and states manufacturer coupons.

I think you're right. When I watched the Target tape, I didn't notice Casey handing over any coupons, nor the clerk scanning any. So this makes sense.
 
.

Bold mine.

Sorry about all of this, it is heartbreaking when you were longing to help. This is all sadly familiar. I've had similar experiences with a (narcissistic) teenaged family member. Their blameshifting and "victimhood" legitimizes their real victimization of others (like KC justifying her stealing from AH). Some serious "projecting" going on there. Amazing in their own minds they're the ones being wronged! But such is the pattern of narcissistic people--once you've served or outlived their purposes for you, they will chew you up and spit you out, forgetting every kindness ever shown to them. I really hope this isn't the case with your nephew, but it is eerily reminiscent of CA's post on her myspace:

Respectfully snipped...


Because every parent who loves their child disciplines them. Yet how often, in trying to spare children consequences, we confuse accountability with unforgiveness, or equate love with licentiousness. JMHUO (unprofessional)

Thank you so much for your and other poster's supportive comments.

I also want to thank you, Kiki the parrot, for your insight. Your posts are REALLY, REALLY hitting home for me.

I think your comments very much apply to Casey and others with personality disorders.
 
I honestly don't think KC used manufacturers coupons. I believe it was in store specials/coupons that came up on the Target receipt. Normally a coupon at Target is scanned at the end and comes up at the end of the register receipt and states manufacturer coupons.

ya know, I'd wondered where that coupon thing came from in the first place.
 
Thank you so much for your and other poster's supportive comments.

I also want to thank you, Kiki the parrot, for your insight. Your posts are REALLY, REALLY hitting home for me.

I think your comments very much apply to Casey and others with personality disorders.

It helps, doesn't it- to know others have lived this.. that you are not alone in this? :blowkiss:
 
It takes a lot of moxie to go and shop at Target with a stolen checkbook AND use coupons, to boot -- is she trying to save Amy some money? LOL

...here is Casey - getting quite a lot of discounts with her array of coupons.

My point: I was really shocked to see the coupons, and I think it's quite revealing about how Casey thinks and acts.

If she used coupons, and showed up at the police station wearing the clothes and glasses and shoes that she bought with stolen money, then either she wasn't stealing, or she's insane.

The only charge against her is for this stealing, which shows how LE is thinking. They will use any excuse to get her, and then say she must be insane, so nothing she says has a grain of truth.

It's hard to fight against that.

When you think about Casey, give her some credit for telling a little bit of truth in phone conversations when she was talking about things in the moment, like, "I am playing phone tag with Zani". She doesn't say those things to establish the existence of someone who doesn't exist so she can have her to blame weeks later. No one can lie and fill in the blanks beforehand that extensively, especially someone who is insane.

But if you find one big lie by the police....what if they made Zani disappear?
 
shadowraiths, your painstaking explanation of some fine differences is appreciated. Even if some distinctions were discarded ( more than wikipedia needed for that conclusion), those distinctions are extremely useful, including the chemical variance in the psychopath's brain and the behavioral differences you described. If it was just a bunch of jargon labels being thrown around, I'd say to hell with it too but you presented a way of catergorising observable ways of distinguishing disorders and diseases that are valuable in prediction and in examining a subject's history and analysing it.
I used the link as it was the one most easily accessible to make my point. There are several others, try the APA and research it for yourself if you chose not to like that particular reference.

I completely understand that there is a lot of debate if differences exist within or between sociopaths and psychopaths. Even if someone agrees that there are differences, there is disagreement about what those differences are. However, if we are to look at Casey's profile and you choose to use opinion/theory, instead of recognized medical diagnostic categories, then I believe it is important to note as such. "Some believe such as such" would be a start. As it stands now psychopathy and sociopathy are not recognized medical disorders or diseases. Hare would like to have psychopathic personality as a DSM diagnostic category, and many, including myself, agree with him. Obviously, this has not occurred up to this point.

There is presently some interesting brain research that has found differences in those with similar or the same diagnosis. However, for example, I cannot say that a person is suffering from agitated depression and offer differences from other forms of depression not recognized within the mental health field w/o clarifying this. At that point it is someone's interpretation of research...but what research. With no links provided how are we to know how anything was even defined, let alone measured? Psychopathy and sociopathy are constructs often used in research and also are defined differently by different professionals. So one needs to be aware of what is recognized and what is not within the mental health field. If you want to believe something is fact without any awareness of this information that is up to you. I can tell you this isn't the only theory on this subject and isn't the recognized stance of the APA.
 
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