Casey & Family Psychological Profile #4

[stilettos]

What is the technical term for someone who molds themselves to be like whoever they are with? Borderline is the closest I can come, but I don't know if that is what I am looking for.
I've had way too much experience with pathological/compulsive liars in my lifetime. Narcissists, check, bi-polar, check, borderline, check, but I don't think I've ever been around a sociopath, except maybe in passing.
Was there a thread in the parking lot about people's experiences with others with these disorders? My MIL is probably the worst liar I have ever met in my life. I have pretty much cut her out of my life, but last week she extended an olive branch. (Sympathy card for the death of my brother, he died the week before Christmas. Nice of her to think about me a month later... and wish she hadn't bothered.) I don't want her back in my life, and so far have not responded at all, but was wondering if the best approach is to ignore, or respond with leave me the he!! alone.
Lanie

Ignore!!! If you have had negative and chaotic results from your interactions and you want her gone...IGNORE!!! I agree about the molding personality to fit those in theenviornment fitting with borderline personality. In my experience with a family member (two actually) this fits.

 

[natsound]

On a lighter note KC's little bitty hands disturb me. Don't ask me why I don't know but they give me the willys.LOL

snipped

It's because of what she's done with them.

 

[kageykaren]

snipped

It's because of what she's done with them.

OMG that is it! I'm so busy watching her that I forgot what those hands were capable of. Time Out for me. :bang:

 

[BuzzieCat]

I still think sociopath could fit. No expert here, but that's just what I lean toward. Sure she molds herself into the image of whatever she thinks works best for her at any moment, but I don't know that it's because she CARES what others think or wants to be accepted per se. She just, IMO, wants to look good and get the admiration of others because in her mind it's what she deserves. If she acts the way others want her to act (boyfriend, family, friends) at the time, covering her true self, they will give her what she wants. If at any time they (boyfriend, family, friends) don't comply, then she will either disappear or, if cornered, become angry, as I'm sure she did with her family at the very least.

I guess I'm just not understanding how being emotionally stuck at the level of a small child would lead to the lying, cheating, stealing, and whatever happened to Caylee most of all. It makes more sense to me to think that she is a sociopath without a full complement of feelings. She has anger, and she has sadness when it's for herself, and she has happiness of a kind when she gets what she wants, but that's about it. Nothing for anyone else. If she were only emotionally retarded, wouldn't she feel sorry about Caylee's death later?

 

[reeseeva]

We seem to be on the same wave (KC) length....I couldn't have written my thoughts better!

Something is so Distrubing about this intermix!:waitasec: Your question of manipulation is vividly sound, & some people can interpret gestures for what they are, no more, no less. This THING they have, goes back a way to when she was spending all day at his office. My theory is, it is "It Cuts Both Ways"! & I think you can read between the lines. It's HIS manipulation that is ethically reprehensible, & now it's a train, that he surely does not want to stop. This is Bigger than him, & he'll placate her till the cows come home, actually, she's easy to figure out, & he will play her game, before he'll return to his previous life! It is so clear, & this is just another weird facet to this horrible tragedy.

Regarding the small hands, I fell over laughing at that one, and yes there are varying degrees in everything, even small hands, but her's Speak of something unsaid!

As far as your description of the bed-headed atty, who will definitely steal the thunder from KC, she could end up being her new role model,

I fearfully & sadly believe we are watching an evolution of our times.....she is now in the ranks of Joran VDS, forgiving themselves easily for the choices thev'e made, having no apologies for what they had to do, it's another erosion of our moral way of thinking.....A sign of the Times............

Here I am replying to my own quote.....but I'm looking for KIKI & OLG to weigh in?:woohoo::woohoo:

 

[Psmith]

Here's the link to the statement KC wrote and signed for LE prior to her arrest.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/acrobat/2008-08/41844520.pdf

Page 29/432

Hi, Missmybaby and everyone.

I was also wondering about the "new" signature, along with you and Capri. It does look more like Cay then the pen line seems to go back and overwrite the last half. From what I recall, KC's usual signature (sig at end of police interview at Universal, then statement) was very rounded and and even. This new exemplar is very different to me. I cannot express it well but geesh, ok....is she in someway absorbing or "taking on" Caylee? Sorry if ridiculous.

What is going on do you think?



(PS: OneLost, I did have a couple of flashbacks and lost-time events. But it was cool. I owe ya. J/K)

 

[Verité]

Re the continuing debate about KC's psychological profile, it's important to
realize that forensic psychologists/psychiatrists charged with this task
are not trying to pigeon-hole the person (is she a sociopath, narcissist, et al),
but to answer important psycholegal questions. What is her Mental Status
(reality control, cognitive, affective, & defensive style, etc.)? Mental health
and social histories? Intellectual and personality profiles as revealed by
unobtrusive measures, such as psychological tests? Is she mentally
competent and able to participate in her own defense?

Such an in-depth study occurs before any attempt to pigeon-hole the
person, & even then diagnosis is required in several spheres of functioning,
which assists in the awesome task of recommendations for sentencing,
whether or not the person is able to benefit from psychotherapy and/or
substance abuse treatment, etc.

It's interesting that most posts here seem to cluster around three main
parameters, e.g. strong chameleon-type characteristics with shifting
identity styles; sociopathic behaviors; & prominent narcissisim. There is
one DSM-IV diagnosis which encompasses all these heteregenous aspects
of functioning--which is believed, by virtue of its developmental origin--to involve ongoing problems in identity diffusion ("chameleonism" for lack
of a better term), extreme narcissism and often pathological lying and
antisocial tendencies. The diagnosis: Borderline Personality Disorder.

I'm not unique in suggesting this term from current psychiatric
nomenclature is likely in this case. In fact, the psychological
consultant on Jane Velez Mitchell today also opined that a condition
such as BPD or Narcissistic Personality Disorder was applicable.

IMO, NPD's do suffer problems in self-cohesion, but not to the extent
of the Borderline's "as if" personality style. This "as if" predisposition
has long been recognized in the literature as specific to borderline
functioning, and is best illustrated here by this description from Lanie:

What is the technical term for someone who molds themselves to be like whoever they are with? Borderline is the closest I can come. . .

You were very close--in fact, right on! :clap: IMHO

A Narcissistic Personality Disorder would be too grandiose to even want
to emulate another. A sociopath would insist on others bending to his/her
characteristic style, values, and behaviors.

 

[Verité]

OK, here I go, really out on a limb this time. But, I can't resist adding my
one-cents (recession, y'know) to kageykaren:

On a lighter note KC's little bitty hands disturb me. Don't ask me why I don't know but they give me the willys.LOL

I don't see her hands as itty-bitty, but large and menacing. You're right
to have the willys, and thanks for sharing that coz, I, too, have been
disturbed by the sight of her hands for some time, tho most distressed when
viewing the 8-14-08 video visit with her parents. Watch her hands at work!

The video of her court appearance today (1-30-09) was even more revealing. She couldn't keep those hands still! Like Lady MacBeth, she
even seems at one point to be doing a "dry washing" of her hands,
rubbing them together, back and forth.

KC's hands figure prominently into my theory of Caylee's last hours, but I
won't discuss that on this thread, which has to do with psychological style.
I will say the washing of hands motif is a compulsive behavior pattern, or
the OCD defense of "undoing" of guilt, as in the Lady MB classic example.

 

[Psmith]

OK, here I go, really out on a limb this time. But, I can't resist adding my
one-cents (recession, y'know) to kageykaren:


I don't see her hands as itty-bitty, but large and menacing. You're right
to have the willys, and thanks for sharing that coz, I, too, have been
disturbed by the sight of her hands for some time, tho most distressed when
viewing the 8-14-08 video visit with her parents. Watch her hands at work!

The video of her court appearance today (1-30-09) was even more revealing. She couldn't keep those hands still! Like Lady MacBeth, she
even seems at one point to be doing a "dry washing" of her hands,
rubbing them together, back and forth.

KC's hands figure prominently into my theory of Caylee's last hours, but I
won't discuss that on this thread, which has to do with psychological style.
I will say the washing of hands motif is a compulsive behavior pattern, or
the OCD defense of "undoing" of guilt, as in the Lady MB classic example.

I found all the gestures and behaviours on display today interesting. At first the hand motions may have been to rub the "chafing" of the cuffs, but rightfully so, this rubbing, stroking, etc. began to assume another function when prisoner refocused on other areas of attention...hands went on.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Re the continuing debate about KC's psychological profile, it's important to
realize that forensic psychologists/psychiatrists charged with this task
are not trying to pigeon-hole the person (is she a sociopath, narcissist, et al),
but to answer important psycholegal questions. What is her Mental Status
(reality control, cognitive, affective, & defensive style, etc.)? Mental health
and social histories? Intellectual and personality profiles as revealed by
unobtrusive measures, such as psychological tests? Is she mentally
competent and able to participate in her own defense?

Such an in-depth study occurs before any attempt to pigeon-hole the
person, & even then diagnosis is required in several spheres of functioning,
which assists in the awesome task of recommendations for sentencing,
whether or not the person is able to benefit from psychotherapy and/or
substance abuse treatment, etc.

It's interesting that most posts here seem to cluster around three main
parameters, e.g. strong chameleon-type characteristics with shifting
identity styles; sociopathic behaviors; & prominent narcissisim. There is
one DSM-IV diagnosis which encompasses all these heteregenous aspects
of functioning--which is believed, by virtue of its developmental origin--to involve ongoing problems in identity diffusion ("chameleonism" for lack
of a better term), extreme narcissism and often pathological lying and
antisocial tendencies. The diagnosis: Borderline Personality Disorder.

I'm not unique in suggesting this term from current psychiatric
nomenclature is likely in this case. In fact, the psychological
consultant on Jane Velez Mitchell today also opined that a condition
such as BPD or Narcissistic Personality Disorder was applicable.

IMO, NPD's do suffer problems in self-cohesion, but not to the extent
of the Borderline's "as if" personality style. This "as if" predisposition
has long been recognized in the literature as specific to borderline
functioning, and is best illustrated here by this description from Lanie:



You were very close--in fact, right on! :clap: IMHO

A Narcissistic Personality Disorder would be too grandiose to even want
to emulate another. A sociopath would insist on others bending to his/her
characteristic style, values, and behaviors.

I believe if Casey were to be ever properly diagnosed it would be with a handful of personality disorders. However, because of her long term practice of lying, shutting down, splitting and disassociating I doubt she could ever be properly diagnosed.

I believe MANY of the traits that others here see as Narcissistic are in fact a cover for her Borderline-like insecurities. ITA that Casey has FAR more Borderline traits than Psychopath or Narcissistic ones.

 

[reeseeva]

I believe if Casey were to be ever properly diagnosed it would be with a handful of personality disorders. However, because of her long term practice of lying, shutting down, splitting and disassociating I doubt she could ever be properly diagnosed.

I believe MANY of the traits that others here see as Narcissistic are in fact a cover for her Borderline-like insecurities. ITA that Casey has FAR more Borderline traits than Psychopath or Narcissistic ones.

So, You do not agree that she is a Genetic Mutation of Ourselves?......of Our Culture?

 

[OneLostGrl]

Here I am replying to my own quote.....but I'm looking for KIKI & OLG to weigh in?:woohoo::woohoo:

LOL

KIKI is still on time out I think and though I'm sure she and I would have different opinions here is mine-

I have felt for quite some time that Jose may be keeping things from Casey, that he isn't being all that honest about what she is up against. I do not like the guy.. at all. He seems sleezy, like he'd love to be a con-man but just isn't smart enough- much like Casey. Kinda ironic when ya think about it because she seems to think she is so much smarter than everyone else, that SHE is the only one capable of taking advantage of others- one would think she would be able to recognize that in others. I know when I was a scum bag that took advantage of eveyone around me I could practacly smell others like me from miles away- still can.

For some reason she trusts this guy. :waitasec:

As for the behaviors that seem to be a sign of the times- ITA and like I have said before it's because so few parents hold their children acountable for their actions. They cover up their poor behaviors and blame everyone BUT their children for their actions. They go to the school and yell at the teachers, whatever it takes to avoid admitting their little princess could possibly have done wrong. It is indeed a evolution of our times, IMO. I'm sure you have read my posts about how I was raised by a woman just like Cindy and I have no doubt my own mother would cover for me if I killed someone... simply because she would not be able to admit to herself that she raised a killer.

 

[OneLostGrl]

So, You do not agree that she is a Genetic Mutation of Ourselves?......of Our Culture?

Ohh, I do- I believe Casey was created not born. That is not to say that I don't realize people like Casey can be born and not created... I know both types. But in THIS case.. I do believe her upbringing had a huge impact on what she became.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Hi, Missmybaby and everyone.

I was also wondering about the "new" signature, along with you and Capri. It does look more like Cay then the pen line seems to go back and overwrite the last half. From what I recall, KC's usual signature (sig at end of police interview at Universal, then statement) was very rounded and and even. This new exemplar is very different to me. I cannot express it well but geesh, ok....is she in someway absorbing or "taking on" Caylee? Sorry if ridiculous.

What is going on do you think?



(PS: OneLost, I did have a couple of flashbacks and lost-time events. But it was cool. I owe ya. J/K)

:blowkiss:

 

[reeseeva]

LOL

KIKI is still on time out I think and though I'm sure she and I would have slightly different opinions here is mine-

I have felt for quite some time that Jose may be keeping things from Casey, that he isn't being all that honest about what she is up against. I do not like the guy.. at all. He seems sleezy, like he'd love to be a con-man but just isn't smart enough- much like Casey. Kinda ironic when ya think about it because she seems to think she is so much smarter than everyone else, that SHE is the only one capable of taking advantage of others- one would think she would be able to recognize that in others. I know when I was a scum bag that took advantage of eveyone around me I could practacly smell others like me from miles away- still can.

For some reason she trusts this guy. :waitasec:

God ,I have been waiting for your response all day, Thank You, Thank You, for Identifying what many do not know of many Normal people that have to do what they have to do, to APPEAR Normal:waitasec: but nonetheless have SERIOUS issues with Life's Loveblood! You Are A Survivor!

Please don't forsake this forum, no matter how many vacations you endure! There are many here listening to you, & humbly I am one of them.:clap::clap:

As for the behaviors that seem to be a sign of the times- ITA and like I have said before it's because so few parents hold their children acountable for their actions. They cover up their poor behaviors and blame everyone BUT their children for their actions. They go to the school and yell at the teachers, whatever it takes to avoid admitting their little princess could possibly have done wrong. It is indeed a evolution of our times, IMO. I'm sure you have read my posts about how I was raised by a woman just like Cindy and I have no doubt my own mother would cover for me if I killed someone... simply because she would not be able to admit to herself that she raised a killer.

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[Whisperer]

Oversimplified but it works for me:

One of the easiest ways for me to recognize a borderline is upon communicating with them, they leave me angry or sad, consistently.....

 

[Whisperer]

I believe if Casey were to be ever properly diagnosed it would be with a handful of personality disorders. However, because of her long term practice of lying, shutting down, splitting and disassociating I doubt she could ever be properly diagnosed.

I believe MANY of the traits that others here see as Narcissistic are in fact a cover for her Borderline-like insecurities. ITA that Casey has FAR more Borderline traits than Psychopath or Narcissistic ones.

I think her narcissism has reached the height of extreme and she is pathological. I can see the borderline traits but she is so histrionic that it is difficult to nail down anything. Whenever I have this wide of a problem fitting them in a category because they cross so many lines, I put them in the class of Borderline. Cindy gives me that flavor of borderline personality but not pathological. I would like to see her IQ tests results. I get the impression she is not intelligent at all and that is why all this is so difficult to assess. I could be wrong and will leave that open.

I will say that I will NEVER EVER work again around any borderlines. In my opinion, they are like the devil and some are downright scary. I have seen Doctors, nurses, psychiatrists and psychologists set up by them and fired. In fact just going back in time and thinking of my experiences with them makes me so nervous that I want a tranquilizer. Almost all of the female borderlines I knew were cutters. It is hard to put kc completely there due to the fact that we know nothing about her youth. Did she have conduct disorder? I bet she did but we will never hear it from Cindy. She sure as heck had to have had defiant disorder as a child....and I would say she may have had or still has ADHD.

Her traits combined with a liberal upbringing without structure was a contributing factor to what has led to extreme rage. Without firm discipline and boundaries, some of these people disintegrate.

 

[Psmith]

I am a little uncomfortable with seeing KC and environment (familial, cultural, etc) as a sign of the times. What we have now is greater communication and exchange of knowledge (between states, disciplines, social strata). Example: late sixities and beyond: bring on male serial killers (Bundy, Manson, Gacy, Dahmer, et al, and forbears). How can that be connected to a sign of the times? There were historical predecessors. It is only fairly recently that so many child-killers, murderers, etc. who are women have got so much attention. This is not to say it did not happen before; it did, I believe, and current papers are being written. It coincides with male violence. The secret is in social mythology and presumptions (a mom would not do that) that it is better hidden or passed off, not change per se.

 

[reeseeva]

Ohh, I do- I believe Casey was created not born. That is not to say that I don't realize people like Casey can be born and not created... I know both types. But in THIS case.. I do believe her upbringing had a huge impact on what she became.

I fear to say, She is following in the line/footsteps of Joran VDS, No regrets No Sorrow, I'ts an epidemic, I feel it!

 

[OneLostGrl]

Oversimplified but it works for me:

One of the easiest ways for me to recognize a borderline is upon communicating with them, they leave me angry or sad, consistently.....

The biggist clue for me is they have an uncanny ability to twist others words and actions to fit their agenda and come out looking like a victim to people who do not know them. Outsiders consistently feel bad for them, and often believe the aflicted persons loved ones are selfish.