Casey & Family Psychological Profile #4

[lala]

Looking at all the info in this case has me seeing that KC did leave many clues as she has stated several times. She made those comments about the memorial out of pathological sport. Nothing for her to gain but the jazz she gets from her own passive agreesivness I feel she has resigned herself to being guilty of Caylees murder but is going to make everyone work and pay for her conviction.

You are absolutely right on every point. My hope, though, is that her mother goes against her wishes again on something and KC, in all her brilliance, needs to one up her again and confesses what she did. That would be the final embarassment to her mother.

 

[Annie Maude]

I didn't hear Lee's statements with the inappropriate laughter people are referring to but just wanted to say........are you sure, very clearly, it was actual laughing? Like heh heh, or ha ha ha laughs?

Because when I am nervous or in distress or maybe extremely weary, I may sound like I am punctuating sentences with a "huh" which may sound like a little laugh but it's not. Does this make sense? It's kind of a cough/grunt/tsk type thing that I am not even aware I am doing. And sometimes it might be nervous giggle- I can't explain it, it's just pure nerves.

But I'm not one of those people who actually laughs in bad situations although I have been told this is normal sometimes....I have heard of people being given news in person that someone died, and laughing- they obviously don't think it's funny, and are in shock. I have not seen Lee's videos but am wondetring if maybe he's just nervous or trying to toe the line in the family and it unconscious OR if he's actually just kind of kicking back and laughing a little, cool as a cuke?

I've heard it several times. He was definitely laughing, but it was a nervous sort of laugh. Like he couldn't believe it.

 

[Annie Maude]

Apart from totally agreeing with you, it certainly places Cindy's comment at the memorial in high relief- that her greatest gift in life was Caylee. Not the perp, but Caylee.

That was a chilling statement to me also. Cindy can dish it out.

 

[Jolynna]

or she asked that the memorial be private and her mother who put together the memorial service did it the way she wanted anyway. seems to me her statement 'i cannot stop my parents doing what they want." was the only clear message she gave. her request was ignored in favor of the martyrgram show.

They are martyrs.

No matter what their dysfunction only ONE member of the Anthony family killed Caylee.No level of competition would have driven Cindy to have done it. Lee wouldn't do it to goad Casey. Nor would George.

I believe anyone of them would have given their own lives in exchange for Caylee's. I don't think the same is true of Casey.

IF the only reason Casey can't talk is because Casey is afraid of her mother, Cindy, George and Lee made it clear yesterday that Casey was loved no matter what.

She couldn't talk before because Caylee was in danger. If Casey is still holding back because she is afraid of what her family will think, Casey can check THAT off her list too.

JMO

 

[wanetta]

I didn't hear Lee's statements with the inappropriate laughter people are referring to but just wanted to say........are you sure, very clearly, it was actual laughing? Like heh heh, or ha ha ha laughs?

Because when I am nervous or in distress or maybe extremely weary, I may sound like I am punctuating sentences with a "huh" which may sound like a little laugh but it's not. Does this make sense? It's kind of a cough/grunt/tsk type thing that I am not even aware I am doing. And sometimes it might be nervous giggle- I can't explain it, it's just pure nerves.

But I'm not one of those people who actually laughs in bad situations although I have been told this is normal sometimes....I have heard of people being given news in person that someone died, and laughing- they obviously don't think it's funny, and are in shock. I have not seen Lee's videos but am wondetring if maybe he's just nervous or trying to toe the line in the family and it unconscious OR if he's actually just kind of kicking back and laughing a little, cool as a cuke?

I'm one of those who laughs in bad situations!! I would be the first one to drop in a hostage situation! lol After listening to Lee talking with law personnel, I thought it was a nervous laugh/chuckle thing going on, but who knows, since we don't know him...

 

[justthinkin]

Great post - thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Lee's laughter about the smell of Caylee's rotting corpse will forever haunt me. While it's true he may still believe the body in the trunk of his sister's car was not Caylee, it's clear there is compelling evidence to suggest and even prove otherwise.

DT

Hey thanks, I appreciate it. Yes, that awful smell in the garage, and to chuckle about it, not a normal response at all. It was a dissociative response.

 

[justthinkin]

Transformation of the narcissistic layers of the self rather than "cure" is the goal of treatment for narcissistic personality disorders. This requires YEARS
of post-doctoral training in the method of empathic attunement described by the psychoanalyst who first identified narcissistic personality disorders.
(Importantly, he made a distinction between "narcissistic behavior disorders" which were believed untreatable, versus narcissistic personality disorders.)

Fictional characters in films such as American Psycho & the Twilight Zone kid
suggest the type of malignant narcissism most often seen in psychopaths (aka sociopaths, antisocial personalities) who also are not believed amenable
to usual forms of treatment.

In real-life settings, especially forensic settings, a differential diagnosis should never be attempted by other than a skilled psychologist or
psychiatrist who combine a huge amount of objective data before ever
proposing a diagnostic label.

I would like to know who this person is to whom you refer so that I can read more about what he or she has to say.

 

[jennyb]

Isn't it bizarre that Casey and her mother had to have passive aggressive discourse through their my space pages? The bickering continued even when they weren't around each other. Of course what the OP pointed out was in reference to what we now know was KC's secret weapon, murder, to win the final argument. In effect, KC killed the golden goose by which they all profited. And before anyone raps me on the head, yes, I know we're talking about a very precious little girl whose life was cut short. Poor little Caylee was used by both Cindy and KC to get at each others' throats when they weren't literally at each others' throats. In the grand scheme of this family, Caylee was a pawn, an entertaining pawn, but a pawn none the less. Cindy can consider her the baby, a gift, an angel, but Caylee would never have been allowed to be her own person with individual likes and dislikes, and needs.

I evidence this by the conversation Cindy had with her co-worker after the car had been retrieved from impoundment. In that conversation, she refers to Caylee five times as "the baby," not once calling her by her given name, and that's objectifying the child. Caylee could be anything and everything except seen as a separate human being. This is a family full of scripted characters, none of whom are allowed to be real in their own interactions with each other.

I'm of the opinion that direct confrontation only comes about in this family during times of crisis. Otherwise, everything is inferred, sidestepped or talked around through the use of manipulative actions and responses. I really believe the only way George could express his need for a time out is by threatening suicide. In this family, drastic feelings call for drastic measures. I don't think anyone in this family really listens or hears anyone else. I don't think this is a family who would ultimately trust a counselor or counseling. They're hanging onto their scripts with all their might. This isn't something that happened overnight, didn't fall from the sky. This is multi-generational, and in a psychological sense they're all victims. Victims grow up to be perpetrators though, so what was perpetrated on George and Cindy as children is repeated with their own children.

In going back over Lee's interview with LE, I noted inappropriate chuckles at what should be serious moments. I take that as a measure of his personal distress. Here's a person who in the past has not been allowed to openly express how he feels within this family, something that's gone on since childhood. This is how inappropriate responses develop, and it wasn't the child's doing or adult Lee's doing. It was the environment he grew up in. In order to break the cycle with his own child, yet to be born, Lee will have to decide to be Lee, and say to h&ll with what everyone else in this family expects of him, and break with the toxicity of his parents with whom he's currently enmeshed. Lee is the hope for this family. He has not yet realized his power. If there's to be any healthful change in this family, only he can bring it about through his actions. The rest are too far gone.

Excellent post. And just to add a bit... I always found it so striking that KC in jail kept saying: "Oh, I haven't cried." Pretty much unprompted. Like that was to be commended. No one asked her if she was crying. I think the question was.... "how are you gorgeous?" And her answer was I HAVEN'T CRIED. I just thought that was such a strange, telling comment. You have to wonder if crying wasn't allowed in the A household.

 

[elementary]

Excellent post. And just to add a bit... I always found it so striking that KC in jail kept saying: "Oh, I haven't cried." Pretty much unprompted. Like that was to be commended. No one asked her if she was crying. I think the question was.... "how are you gorgeous?" And her answer was I HAVEN'T CRIED. I just thought that was such a strange, telling comment. You have to wonder if crying wasn't allowed in the A household.

My first thought is, she was implying that "they haven't broken me".

 

[jennyb]

My first thought is, she was implying that "they haven't broken me".

I think you're probably right. I guess it's not about the crying per se, more like a *pride* in her ability to thwart and stonewall authority.

ETA: And wow. She said it to please her parents? That's telling. WOW.

 

[justthinkin]

I didn't hear Lee's statements with the inappropriate laughter people are referring to but just wanted to say........are you sure, very clearly, it was actual laughing? Like heh heh, or ha ha ha laughs?

Because when I am nervous or in distress or maybe extremely weary, I may sound like I am punctuating sentences with a "huh" which may sound like a little laugh but it's not. Does this make sense? It's kind of a cough/grunt/tsk type thing that I am not even aware I am doing. And sometimes it might be nervous giggle- I can't explain it, it's just pure nerves.

But I'm not one of those people who actually laughs in bad situations although I have been told this is normal sometimes....I have heard of people being given news in person that someone died, and laughing- they obviously don't think it's funny, and are in shock. I have not seen Lee's videos but am wondetring if maybe he's just nervous or trying to toe the line in the family and it unconscious OR if he's actually just kind of kicking back and laughing a little, cool as a cuke?

In the interview it is reported as Lee chuckles when speaking of the smell in the garage and car. There was another instance a little later in that interview when he again had an inappropriate response.

It's absolutely nothing to blame him for. He's a product of his environment. He is no longer the powerless child he once was. As an adult he has the power to put an end to the psychological manipulations and the hold his parents have on him, but first in order for that to happen, he has to come to have true awareness of the past, deep emotional awareness. Intellectual awareness will get him just so far. It's doubtful this will happen before the trial. I believe he sees himself as a rescuer here, and he's been placed in that position by his parents. If anyone in this family truly cracks, I believe it will be Lee. Lee carries the emotional weight of the family. He is Hercules holding up the world. How much can he take? He's commissioned by his dad to see after his mother, commissioned by her to see after his dad, and commissioned by both of them to support Casey no matter what.

I wouldn't doubt he asks himself, when does what Lee wants matter, something he has every right to ask, and have answered sincerely.

 

[elementary]

I think you're probably right. I guess it's not about the crying per se, more like a *pride* in her ability to thwart and stonewall authority.

IIRC she told her parents that LE would never break her which, I think is her major concern/game. I am sure she perceives crying as a weakness. And since her only thought is for herself, she is more concerned with her pride in stonewalling LE and that's all she relates to. To cry (or say "uncle") would mean to be broken by LE

Which, come to think of it, brings Lee's love fest into sharper focus- hoping she is proud of him for not having broken as he is of her. And come to think of it, isn't that the message that the As wanted to convey? Unity? Solidarity? That nasty world can't break us?Yeesh.

I noticed that the perp often says, "You aren't listening. When do I get my say?" Even when people are listening she fools them into believing that they aren't giving her her say. She said that about LE- that only if they would listen to her, she could help them, but they weren't. It's an empty phrase that speaks to how inadequate and useless the listener is and deflects from any real communication.

Now the As have told the world, "walk a mile in our shoes, you don't understand what we're going through, you can't imagine what it is like for us".

The entire family finds the world disappointing and inadequate and endlessly tells it so. But no one is gonna break them.

 

[Verité]

For Justthinkin (hope I got U spelled right) . . .he's now deceased (early '80s, i think), formed the foundation of all current theoretical understanding of
narcissism: Heinz Kohut. Visual Wikipedia has a nice diagram showing link Kohut provides from early theorists to modern thinkers.

 

[jennyb]

IIRC she told her parents that LE would never break her which, I think is her major concern/game. I am sure she perceives crying as a weakness. And since her only thought is for herself, she is more concerned with her pride in stonewalling LE and that's all she relates to. To cry (or say "uncle") would mean to be broken by LE

Which, come to think of it, brings Lee's love fest into sharper focus- hoping she is proud of him for not having broken as he is of her. And come to think of it, isn't that the message that the As wanted to convey? Unity? Solidarity? That nasty world can't break us?Yeesh.

I noticed that the perp often says, "You aren't listening. When do I get my say?" Even when people are listening she fools them into believing that they aren't giving her her say. She said that about LE- that only if they would listen to her, she could help them, but they weren't. It's an empty phrase that speaks to how inadequate and useless the listener is and deflects from any real communication.

Now the As have told the world, "walk a mile in our shoes, you don't understand what we're going through, you can't imagine what it is like for us".

The entire family finds the world disappointing and inadequate and endlessly tells it so. But no one is gonna break them.

ITA. It's all veeery interesting. (hey, how did my little blue wry guy get all the way up there?)

 

[elfie]

Transformation of the narcissistic layers of the self rather than "cure" is the goal of treatment for narcissistic personality disorders. This requires YEARS
of post-doctoral training in the method of empathic attunement described by the psychoanalyst who first identified narcissistic personality disorders.
(Importantly, he made a distinction between "narcissistic behavior disorders" which were believed untreatable, versus narcissistic personality disorders.)

Fictional characters in films such as American Psycho & the Twilight Zone kid
suggest the type of malignant narcissism most often seen in psychopaths (aka sociopaths, antisocial personalities) who also are not believed amenable
to usual forms of treatment.

In real-life settings, especially forensic settings, a differential diagnosis should never be attempted by other than a skilled psychologist or
psychiatrist who combine a huge amount of objective data before ever
proposing a diagnostic label.

Refreshing to read. Monday night/early Tuesday Discovery (maybe the Science Channel) featured a study in which 3 skilled psychiatrists were presented with a group that they were allowed to observe for a period of time (days), presented with anonymous diagnoses and were then put to the task of matching the reported results with the individuals in the group. Their first findings were accurate but then trailed off as the matching process went on. In the end the participants of the missed diagnoses divulged their previous clinical results. It was quite a revealing exercise and the doctors admitted to being humbled by it.

 

[Verité]

Originally posted by elfie
Refreshing to read. Monday night/early Tuesday Discovery (maybe the Science Channel) featured a study in which 3 skilled psychiatrists were presented with a group that they were allowed to observe for a period of time (days), presented with anonymous diagnoses and were then put to the task of matching the reported results with the individuals in the group. Their first findings were accurate but then trailed off as the matching process went on. In the end the participants of the missed diagnoses divulged their previous clinical results. It was quite a revealing exercise and the doctors admitted to being humbled by it.

Big Thanks for this one! I'll try & find it as a repeat. . .or google same.
I love this kinda stuff as a great antidote to the tendency to become
rigid in my thinking.

 

[elfie]

Big Thanks for this one! I'll try & find it as a repeat. . .or google same.
I love this kinda stuff as a great antidote to the tendency to become
rigid in my thinking.

I found the link.

Searching for Sanity

http://science.discovery.com/tv-schedules/daily.html?date=20090209.040

The study was done in 1972. The show appeared to be more recent though, hmmm. Probably based on the original study.

 

[Indigo]

From the poem:

With great power
comes great consequence
------------------------

Isn't that a line from "Spiderman?"

That was a spin on the old Spiderman line and the tagline for the movie, "Jumper." "Jumper" is one of the movies that Casey rented on June 16. The parallels between this sci-fi character and Casey are fascinating, IMO. The following is snipped from a review of the movie:

<snipped>

Bank robberies fund a move to New York City and a lifestyle of unfettered hedonism: hooking up with beautiful women, surfing in the South Pacific, etc. As far as David is concerned, he's in heaven. "Why settle on one place," he asks, "when you can have the whole world?"

and this:

"Did you think it could go on like this forever?" Roland asks. "Living like this with no consequences? There are always consequences."

http://www.pluggedinonline.com/movies/movies/a0003903.cfm


I've seen the movie, and I can understand why Casey related to this character.

 

[Verité]

Originally posted by elfie
Searching for Sanity

http://science.discovery.com/tv-sche...e=20090209.040

Ahh, yes! The Rosehan study is one of my favorite classic Social Psychology
experiments where skilled professionals with a certain diagnostic mind-set
projected mental illness onto "normal" experimental cohorts.

That study emphasized how preconceptions shape our judgments and can
result in serious, harmful diagnostic errors.

 

[Knot4u2no]

Ahh, yes! The Rosehan study is one of my favorite classic Social Psychology
experiments where skilled professionals with a certain diagnostic mind-set
projected mental illness onto "normal" experimental cohorts.

That study emphasized how preconceptions shape our judgments and can
result in serious, harmful diagnostic errors.

The above link does not work for me. Are you referring to the Rosenthal Effect?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect

Russell