Casey & Family Psychological Profile #5

[OneLostGrl]

I don't think mental illness absolves responsibility. The courts generally don't see it that way either. To a degree - and if argued effectively - it will most certainly affect sentencing and 'rehabilitation' [HATE that word in these situations], but not Casey's culpability. If Casey was 'insane' at the point of killing, disposing and lying about Casey's whereabouts then that would absolve some of her responsibility. However we all know that Casey is not insane. Mental illness does not equal insanity.

I agree. Too much stigma and misinformation floating around about not only mental illness but the insanity defense as well!

Also, as has been pointed out before, for those who may not be aware- Personality disorders are Axis II which is seperate from your "typical" mental illnesses (Depression, Bipolar, OCD..) which are Axis I in the DSM IV. Axis I are considered "Clinical Syndromes" where-as Axis II are personality & developmental disorders.

 

[OneLostGrl]

................ITA!!!!!!!!!!!!.....

It is a horrible, awful nasty disorder that holds entire families hostage and breeds little Casey's. and I bet you will never forget what it looks like now!

 

[Dolce171]

It is a horrible, awful nasty disorder that holds entire families hostage and breeds little Casey's. and I bet you will never forget what it looks like now!

I couldn't have said it better. I have learned so much through this case! I just want to make sure (and I am sure that you will agree with me)... that folks out there understand the difference between mental illness and disorders like this.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

"bat crazy." A new-for-me but very apt description!

Axis I or Axis II - it is still considered to be mental illness.

Yes, OneLostGirl, this is unforgettable stuff. I cannot remember another case quite like this one - in which the pathology of both the suspect AND the pathology of the parents who raiSed the suspect have been laid out for all to observe.

I am torn between my fascination with observing the pathology and with wanting these folks to just crawl into their home and SHUT UP!

 

[Janis396]

The crazier Cindy acts, the more attention she gets...the more attention she gets, the crazier she acts. SHE'S the one who's a media-ho.

Turn the damn camera's off, I say.

 

[Dolce171]

---------------------------------

Quoted from: http://groups.msn.com/NarcissismSupportGroupMoralandSpiritualStruggle/silenceofthelambs.msnw

"Sociopathology has been studied throughout history since at least the early 19th century. During much of that time, this type of mental illness was known as psychopathology. In 1930, G.E. Partridge proposed that the title of psychopath be changed to sociopath, for he viewed this illness as a social problem instead of just a mental illness. In 1952, the American Psychiatric Association acted on this suggestion by officially replacing the term psychopath with the term sociopath. But to this day, these two terms are used interchangeably (Culwell, 1998). These terms actually have slight differences in their meanings. According to C.R. Bartol, "The term psychopath is usually used to describe a mental illness, the sociopath is an individual who habitually violates known norms and laws" (as cited in Culwell, 1998, p.2). The main difference between the two is the consistent criminal behavior of the sociopath. Therefore, "all sociopaths are psychopathic, while not all psychopaths are sociopathic, due to the absence of the overt criminal behavior that defines sociopathology" (Culwell, 1998, p.2). In 1968, the American Psychiatric Association once again changed the title of this illness and merged these two previous terms under the label of antisocial personality disorder (APD). According to the DSM III (1980), DSM III-R (1987), and DSM-IV (1994), diagnostic manuals which have been used by psychologists and psychiatrists through the years, the antisocial personality disorder refers to an individual "in which there is a history of continuous and chronic antisocial behavior in which the rights of others are violated" (as cited in Culwell, 1998, p.2). The World Health Organization labeled this disorder in the ICD10 as dissocial personality disorder (Sabbatini, 1998). These terms group the psychopath and sociopath into a single personality disorder that can be tested and measured."

 

[Friday]

SNIP:

I cannot remember another case quite like this one - in which the pathology of both the suspect AND the pathology of the parents who raiSed the suspect have been laid out for all to observe.

I am torn between my fascination with observing the pathology and with wanting these folks to just crawl into their home and SHUT UP!

HUGE GAFFAW! :laugh:

 

[passionflower]

DRAMA QUEEN..........loves all of this attention

 

[OneLostGrl]

"bat crazy." A new-for-me but very apt description!

Axis I or Axis II - it is still considered to be mental illness.

Yes, OneLostGirl, this is unforgettable stuff. I cannot remember another case quite like this one - in which the pathology of both the suspect AND the pathology of the parents who raiSed the suspect have been laid out for all to observe.

I am torn between my fascination with observing the pathology and with wanting these folks to just crawl into their home and SHUT UP!

No, Not really. Mental illnesses (Axis I, Clinical Syndromes) have medications approved to treat the illnesses. Personality disorders do not. The chances of one ending up psychotic, losing touch with reality,or not knowing right from wrong with a personality disorder are much less common than with a mental illness... and if it does happen, IMO, usually it's only because they also have an Axis I diagnosis as well.

 

[OneLostGrl]

The crazier Cindy acts, the more attention she gets...the more attention she gets, the crazier she acts. SHE'S the one who's a media-ho.

Turn the damn camera's off, I say.

I agree. And poor George is just so empty, she has sucked him dry of any self-esteem he ever had, if he ever had any.

 

[diz39]

Having a job and/or being educated does not preclude someone from being bat crazy.

Bold mine.
That is the perfect diagnosis for CA.

 

[the by and by]

If she is not mental it seems she might have a drug problem.

 

[OneLostGrl]

If she is not mental it seems she might have a drug problem.

LOL. I thought she was on Benzo's for a while but she seems more "here" now, I don't know if she was drinking while on them and just stopped doing so or if she just went off them all together. But I have seen her "fog" lift quite a lot in the last week or so.

 

[PhoneBoothBandit]

I know this is veering off into 'Casey territory' , but what I am most interested in is the months prior to Caylee's death. George has said in the months prior he didn't approve of Casey's friends, a few of her friends remarked in a change in her behavior too. Did Cindy threaten to take Caylee away from Casey in the months leading up to Caylee's death?

I also vaguely recall Casey telling a friend that her parents would sign the house over to her. The searches on her computer for chloroform are also interesting. I wonder if Casey considered killing Cindy and George?

I just find it remarkable that Cindy, with the wealth of knowledge she has working in the medical field, never really took action against Casey's behavior. Somebody made a very interesting point that a split occurred in the family because Cindy defended Casey to all ends. I think Caylee was Cindy's second shot at the daughter she wanted because frankly, Casey disappointed her. It seems that only after Caylee was born - or when the struggle over Caylee really began - did Cindy start resenting Casey, telling people Casey was a 'sociopath'. It is interesting now that Caylee is gone that Cindy has gone straight back to defending Casey.

Maybe Cindy has mommy issues too.

 

[kiki the parrot]

I have a question -- if a sociopath doesn't have a conscience, doesn't have the ability to FEEL things (love, etc.), then how can they be found guilty of something like murder? If there is no moral compass, to the point where they can murder someone (even a family member) without feeling anything, then they would only be covering up such a murder because they realize that "others don't like murder", and not because they themselves FEEL that murder is wrong. Right? I don't understand how society can hold them accountable under such circumstances. It may not be a mental illness as such, but there is definitely something wrong with them and it sounds like this crops up often in young childhood, teen years, etc.

How could Cindy know what to do with Casey? She probably looked to the future in some reasonable hope that maturity would bring responsibility and accountability to Casey. Many parents have that situation with children, teens, and usually it works out fine and the child eventually emerges as a decent human being.

ETA: I know a lot about PTSD, and one of the facts is that over time, other family members will develop emotional illness issues of their own due to the constant coping with the PTSD issues of one member. Could it be the same with families of sociopaths, that over time they develop emotional/personality issues of their own out of the stress and circumstances of living with someone who is "not right"?

We do not "feel" morals, we know them. My understanding is that a sociopath knows their behavior is aberrant ie is perfectly aware their actions are wrong--they just don't care. And btw the more consistent boundaries, appropriate discipline, and responsibility children are taught during childhood the less we have to just "cross our fingers," hope it "works out," leave to chance whether they're ever prepared for adulthood or may one day become "decent people." JMO

I dont think CA is mentally ill, I think she has lost her mind from dealing for 22 years with a sociopath. Ive dealt with one up close and personal, a direct family member. So I know what it does to your psychy. You cant seperate the unconditional love you have for them and the fact that the only way to deal with them is NO contact at all. Its an impossible decision to make. I think Cindy was well on her way to no contact when she called the police to have her arrested for stealing the car, cks cc etc. and KC knew it. That's why KC was setting up new targets to feed her.

From my own personal experience, I can tell you I spent many years trying to be better at everything, constantly seeking approval, and always thought if I were the best this person would love me, if only I did more. The harder I worked toward this the more I was used and put down. I literally ended up in a psych ward, cause I felt so useless and stupid. It wasnt until I just gave up on this person and said ya know what, Im going to be the best me I can be for me and not you. Im going to do what I know is right, regardless of you, and Im going to take care of me and screw you. The sociopath walked out of my life, I changed all my numbers never to hear from him again. I was no longer feeding into the "game".

So is CA insane, oh yeah definately... I know what she is thinking, she needs to stand up for herself, say its all about me now and turn her back on KC. but unconditional love is a tough thing to break and it is driving her completely crazy.....

"Unconditional love" is not permissiveness, excusing or enablement. A parent's love disciplines, sets limits, and is not afraid to impose consequences. Yes, after 22 years CA decided to finally act like a parent, three cheers. But it is far more likely IMO that KC is the one who lost her mind after 22 years of dealing w CA.

I grew up with a sociopath for a parent. One of my nephews, also raised in the household, is a sociopath as well. The family dynamics are perplexing, even when I stand outside of the situation with several years' distance between me and them. I still fully expect to get news that one of them has killed the other, or other family members. I simply don't intend to be around for that eventuality. (There's no help to be found; neither is incompetent, there is no treatment, and law enforcement can't do anything until a crime is committed.) Neither knows where I live.

Sociopathy--antisocial personality disorder--is a personality disorder, not psychosis. It does not mitigate responsibility. The sociopath knows full well when his/her actions are socially unacceptable. The sociopath understands consequences completely. The sociopath chooses his actions with full understanding of rules, regulations, and laws.

There's no delusion--the sociopath is grounded in reality. (There may be fantasies, but they differ from delusion.)

HOWEVER--sociopathy can have comorbidities that segue into the land of diminished responsibility. A sociopath, like any other member of the human race, can have other mental illnesses that mitigate responsibility. The sociopath, like any other human, can become legally insane.

When she does however, her actions become disordered. Psychotic sociopaths are not able to plan, to plot, to plan, to conceal.

Cindy Anthony may or may not be personality-disordered. I personally believe that her behavior is the result of living with a sociopath rather than the other way around. (Living with one is crazy-making---it is a tremendous emotional strain.) I don't really see the hallmark lack of conscience in her--she seems to be more desperate than anything else. I think her comment that she'd already "lost one" and didn't want to "lose another" pretty much sums up where her head is at the moment. Her world is falling apart---and guilt that she could have intervened in a meaningful way to prevent this outcome is what I think is likely fueling any psychopathology we're seeing right now.

She may indeed be domineering. She may indeed be a control freak. Living with a sociopath makes one grasp at whatever control one can find, however---it's a coping mechanism, not an illness.

Her daughter? Without a doubt personality-disordered. Disordered to the point of unspeakable evil and lack of conscience.

There is so much really good info in this post... thank you. I would never attempt to dx either CA or KC. However I could also never be convinced that CA's problems are simply a reaction to KC (as though CA was a mentally healthy parent until KC became a teen!) Actually if I were to hazard a guess, from all reports and my limited observation, I dare say KC's personality disorder is a coping mechanism from having been raised by CA. Had CA simply been "living with" someone like KC it could maybe be argued or dismissed as the result of the misfortune and stress of having to interact in the same environment w/ KC. But CA RAISED KC! We also do not know exactly what the circumstances were when Caylee died or whether it may even have been due to sheer negligence--only that KC, for some reason, has to date been unable or unwilling to give an honest accounting of those events. Guilt? One would think, but I see absolutely NO evidence of this in CA nor any willingness to gain any insight or be the least introspective. CA isn't just now grasping at some shred of control in response to this--she's been running her daughter's brain all her life (not to mention her husband's). Whatever other comorbidities may exist, everything I see fits much more closely (in my very INexpert opinion) w a pattern of narcissistic (parent-centered) parenting--which produces narcissistic, self-centered, children w a sense of entitlement and a total lack of empathy. I will go one step farther. If Caylee had remained w CA as her caregiver for 20 more years, I would not be the least surprised to see the same narcissism manifested in her. JMHUO

Yes, I do believe that many PDs are learned behaviors. I'd like to address the "diagnosis" mindset that many of us are exhibiting. It should be noted that very often experts misdiagnose specific personality disorders. The general public has little in the way of training and education in psychiatry so we need to be cautious when applying the "disorder du jour" to people who populate our own lives. A presumed diagnosis of sociopathy can be devastating to an individual and to their families. And when we perceive someone as being antisocial, we subconciously may begin treating them differently than we treat others. This may actually cause a person who is borderline or simply going through a troubled period, to become increasingly antisocial in their behavior or to cross the line completely into the disorder. While I know that PDs are not classified as a mental disorder, I believe there is evidence that many who suffer from this particular one have unusual physiologic brain activity that can be documented.

(all bolding in this post mine) ITA w LEARNED. Again, Caylee was "la tabla rasa," (blank slate), we will never know what the outcome would have been of 20 years of the same parenting--but I suspect results would be eerily similar. And again I am not a professional nor would I attempt to dx JMO

 

[Janis396]

I know this is veering off into 'Casey territory' , but what I am most interested in is the months prior to Caylee's death. George has said in the months prior he didn't approve of Casey's friends, a few of her friends remarked in a change in her behavior too. Did Cindy threaten to take Caylee away from Casey in the months leading up to Caylee's death?

I also vaguely recall Casey telling a friend that her parents would sign the house over to her. The searches on her computer for chloroform are also interesting. I wonder if Casey considered killing Cindy and George?

I just find it remarkable that Cindy, with the wealth of knowledge she has working in the medical field, never really took action against Casey's behavior. Somebody made a very interesting point that a split occurred in the family because Cindy defended Casey to all ends. I think Caylee was Cindy's second shot at the daughter she wanted because frankly, Casey disappointed her. It seems that only after Caylee was born - or when the struggle over Caylee really began - did Cindy start resenting Casey, telling people Casey was a 'sociopath'. It is interesting now that Caylee is gone that Cindy has gone straight back to defending Casey.

Maybe Cindy has mommy issues too.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this. The only part I struggle agreeing with is that maybe Cindy had "mommy issues", too. I know we've only heard from Cindy's mother once, in that LE interview, but she seemed like the sweetest, most warm-hearted, honest woman. Truly baffled and beside herself over what was happening. I have wondered ever since then how she ended up with such a screwed up, evil daughter like Cindy. I know we don't know everything in their history, but that's just the feeling I've always had about Cindy's mom.

 

[suspicious mind]

I don't know what mental illness would suit her, but I do think she is a total control freak who is having severe problems coping with something out of her control. I think she has controlled everything in that family, and still does. She probably always bailed kc out of her messes and I'm sure kc thought her mom would rally around to bail her out of this one. If she is on meds, it isn't helping and I think she needs to be re-evaulated by a doctor to see what meds might work for her.

 

[Pink Panther]

Which is it? Searching until one finds or the conviction that one will never find? Seems to me, that it would be best to decide one way or another.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Which is it? Searching until one finds or the conviction that one will never find? Seems to me, that it would be best to decide one way or another.

I don't know about anyone else, Pink Panther but I have come to the conclusion that once you stop searching and begin to feel, really feel what is happening right now, you will have lost your need to search for anything- it all comes to you if you let it.

 

[Dolce171]

IMO - Cindy's anger and outbursts are going to eventually take a serious toll on her physical health. GA says that even he can not prevent her from going off on everyone. When he has tried - it only infuriates her more. Have we seen one person that has been able to really "reach" her????

This woman is going to explode ... one way or the other.