Casey's Pants & the Knife and The Cleaning of the Pontiac

[chefmom]

I concur that the car should not have been touched and should have been preserved at the first moment anyone became aware of the decomp odor. that applies to GA,CA and LE.
It will always be odd to me that LE did not recognize the significance of a car smelling like decomp when they are looking for a missing child and the mother's story does not add up. All of which came to light simultaneously.
the car has been an enigma all the way around.

BBM

Absolutely! It makes no sense that the car wasn't a big red flag from jump. IMO, it was not handled properly. Hopefully, there will be lessons learned from this case.

 

[USARDOG]

I concur that the car should not have been touched and should have been preserved at the first moment anyone became aware of the decomp odor. that applies to GA,CA and LE.
It will always be odd to me that LE did not recognize the significance of a car smelling like decomp when they are looking for a missing child and the mother's story does not add up. All of which came to light simultaneously.
the car has been an enigma all the way around.

I see it in the light of; this was the first act of the cover-up. Being a former homicide detective (per CA) GA knew full well what the smell was, yet he got in and drove the car away. I believe he had full knowledge of the importance of the car and the smell, but acted as a father protecting his daughter, not as a former law officer, and not as someone who wanted to know the truth.

 

[Oakley]

http://www.wesh.com/download/2008/0807/17124688.pdf
That is not exactly what the search warrant statement says. I mean that is not a true quote.

But page 7 does say that Cindy washed the pants prior to calling LE because they smelled like the car and then put them away in KC's room. I don't think Cindy washing the pants has ever been in question.

I have always thought that if CA was truly in full cover up mode at this time, she would not have bothered to mention the pants. but she did tell LE about them on 8/4/08.

Hi JBean! Miss "seeing" you around here. BBM That does seem obvious but I am remembering that Cindy also told LE that her guys already searched the area where Caylee's remains were found. She might have figured she'd fess up beforehand and confess that she'd washed them 'unwittingly' :snooty: before they discovered it for themselves. :cow:

 

[panthera]

http://www.wesh.com/download/2008/0807/17124688.pdf
That is not exactly what the search warrant statement says. I mean that is not a true quote.

But page 7 does say that Cindy washed the pants prior to calling LE because they smelled like the car and then put them away in KC's room. I don't think Cindy washing the pants has ever been in question.

I have always thought that if CA was truly in full cover up mode at this time, she would not have bothered to mention the pants. but she did tell LE about them on 8/4/08.

This is what I have never been able to comprehend, whether or not she was even attempting to cover up anything. The car smells like "death" to the extent that GA needs to have the windows down during the drive home, and still smelled when LE finally took possession of it, which means everything inside the car would have absorbed that odor. So here is my question: why on earth would she even wash those pants or anything else inside the car and not just throw whatever into the trash? Did she honestly think she could get the smell completely out of these items? Why would she attempt to clean out that car during a break from work, while she is presumably dressed in "office attire"? Rather than attempting to cover up anything it seems more like someone who is an obsessive/compulsive "neat freak" and has to have everything in order and whose first instinct was to clean. MOO

 

[chefmom]

This is what I have never been able to comprehend, whether or not she was even attempting to cover up anything. The car smells like "death" to the extent that GA needs to have the windows down during the drive home, and still smelled when LE finally took possession of it, which means everything inside the car would have absorbed that odor. So here is my question: why on earth would she even wash those pants or anything else inside the car and not just throw whatever into the trash? Did she honestly think she could get the smell completely out of these items? Why would she attempt to clean out that car during a break from work, while she is presumably dressed in "office attire"? Rather than attempting to cover up anything it seems more like someone who is an obsessive/compulsive "neat freak" and has to have everything in order and whose first instinct was to clean. MOO

I do not believe that CA felt that KC had harmed Caylee in the beginning. I think she had fleeting moments of suspicion that she quickly brushed away with the thought that she couldn't have raised someone who could harm a child. Her questions lingered and she probed and tried to make KC's answer fit and work. She tried to look deep within KC's "half-truths" and "mis-truths" for any clues that she could garner that would make any of what they were going through make sense. She desperately wanted Caylee to be alive somewhere, even if deep down inside she knew that something awful had happened. When her fears could no longer be placated, she went into full cover up mode and decided she didn't want to lose both of her girls. GA, IMO, knew from the start. He has always, and still is IMO, trying to keep CA sane, for lack of a better word. He stated in the beginning that the truth would kill her, and it is she I think he tries to protect. He was ready to give KC up for what she had done all along, until CA nipped that in the bud. JMO.

 

[JBean]

I do not believe that CA felt that KC had harmed Caylee in the beginning. I think she had fleeting moments of suspicion that she quickly brushed away with the thought that she couldn't have raised someone who could harm a child. Her questions lingered and she probed and tried to make KC's answer fit and work. She tried to look deep within KC's "half-truths" and "mis-truths" for any clues that she could garner that would make any of what they were going through make sense. She desperately wanted Caylee to be alive somewhere, even if deep down inside she knew that something awful had happened. When her fears could no longer be placated, she went into full cover up mode and decided she didn't want to lose both of her girls. GA, IMO, knew from the start. He has always, and still is IMO, trying to keep CA sane, for lack of a better word. He stated in the beginning that the truth would kill her, and it is she I think he tries to protect. He was ready to give KC up for what she had done all along, until CA nipped that in the bud. JMO.

Totally 100% agree.

 

[panthera]

I do not believe that CA felt that KC had harmed Caylee in the beginning. I think she had fleeting moments of suspicion that she quickly brushed away with the thought that she couldn't have raised someone who could harm a child. Her questions lingered and she probed and tried to make KC's answer fit and work. She tried to look deep within KC's "half-truths" and "mis-truths" for any clues that she could garner that would make any of what they were going through make sense. She desperately wanted Caylee to be alive somewhere, even if deep down inside she knew that something awful had happened. When her fears could no longer be placated, she went into full cover up mode and decided she didn't want to lose both of her girls. GA, IMO, knew from the start. He has always, and still is IMO, trying to keep CA sane, for lack of a better word. He stated in the beginning that the truth would kill her, and it is she I think he tries to protect. He was ready to give KC up for what she had done all along, until CA nipped that in the bud. JMO.

I agree with your assessment and also believe that the laundering was more of a spontaneous reaction to finding a dirty, smelly car and not wanting anyone to see it as such. The car was the opposite of the image she wanted to project of the neat, orderly, perfect home. She may have thought Casey gave Caylee away, or just not known what happened to her, but most mothers wouldn't want to believe their daughter was capable of killing their child and would dismiss that notion as long as possible. MOO

 

[Firefly]

Man, I wish GA would have just driven that car straight to the Police Department. Tell them that his daughter and granddaughter has been missing for over a month and this car was just found in this condition. Help me find them. I am worried.

No, they weren't worried enough. They were just afraid of the truth and ignored all the signs....to the point of wanting to WASH IT ALL AWAY.

This family needs some legal action taken upon them for all the tax dollar$ being
wasted on having the state/LE take action to prove to them the truth of the matter.
Casey killed Caylee. They are the ONLY people in denial about this matter. It could have been solved earlier without much drama had they REALLY been worried.

 

[LancelotLink]

Man, I wish GA would have just driven that car straight to the Police Department. Tell them that his daughter and granddaughter has been missing for over a month and this car was just found in this condition. Help me find them. I am worried.

No, they weren't worried enough. They were just afraid of the truth and ignored all the signs....to the point of wanting to WASH IT ALL AWAY.

This family needs some legal action taken upon them for all the tax dollar$ being
wasted on having the state/LE take action to prove to them the truth of the matter.
Casey killed Caylee. They are the ONLY people in denial about this matter. It could have been solved earlier without much drama had they REALLY been worried.

I agree. Instead, he took the battery out. That should teach her a lesson.

 

[JBean]

Man, I wish GA would have just driven that car straight to the Police Department. Tell them that his daughter and granddaughter has been missing for over a month and this car was just found in this condition. Help me find them. I am worried.

No, they weren't worried enough. They were just afraid of the truth and ignored all the signs....to the point of wanting to WASH IT ALL AWAY.

This family needs some legal action taken upon them for all the tax dollar$ being
wasted on having the state/LE take action to prove to them the truth of the matter.
Casey killed Caylee. They are the ONLY people in denial about this matter. It could have been solved earlier without much drama had they REALLY been worried.

well at least he did go to YM when he first saw him at the house and tell him that there was a terrible odor in the car that smelled like a dead body and he was worried that something bad had happened. Maybe he did that to make up for not driving it straight to LE.
Unfortunately, no one in LE put much stock in it at the time. but they figured out soon enough that they better check that car out afterall.

 

[ynotdivein]

I do not believe that CA felt that KC had harmed Caylee in the beginning. I think she had fleeting moments of suspicion that she quickly brushed away with the thought that she couldn't have raised someone who could harm a child. Her questions lingered and she probed and tried to make KC's answer fit and work. She tried to look deep within KC's "half-truths" and "mis-truths" for any clues that she could garner that would make any of what they were going through make sense. She desperately wanted Caylee to be alive somewhere, even if deep down inside she knew that something awful had happened. When her fears could no longer be placated, she went into full cover up mode and decided she didn't want to lose both of her girls. GA, IMO, knew from the start. He has always, and still is IMO, trying to keep CA sane, for lack of a better word. He stated in the beginning that the truth would kill her, and it is she I think he tries to protect. He was ready to give KC up for what she had done all along, until CA nipped that in the bud. JMO.

chefmom, thanks for this succinct yet eloquent summary. Given all that we have seen/heard/read thus far, what you posit above makes a great deal of sense.

It makes me seriously rethink my "take" on GA too. Given his LE background, if the man knew or suspected what had happened in that car, how could/can he justify to himself NOT reporting it immediately? (Oh, wait, it just dawned on me that his fling with Ms. B must have been an example of "ugly coping" due to guilt at not bucking the CA system and driving the Sunfire directly to the nearest PD...)

 

[Snaz]

well at least he did go to YM when he first saw him at the house and tell him that there was a terrible odor in the car that smelled like a dead body and he was worried that something bad had happened. Maybe he did that to make up for not driving it straight to LE.
Unfortunately, no one in LE put much stock in it at the time. but they figured out soon enough that they better check that car out afterall.

Yes, George did pull YM aside and tell him he thought KC knew more than he was saying.... which was the right thing to do at that time. However, he has lied, confused the situation and denied the facts so much since then, I give him no credit for what he said to YM.

IMO, he has undone any good he might have done when he went to Yuri with his beliefs by NOT doing what he SHOULD have to begin with. And by continuing to pretend none of it ever happened.

If George had called the police rather than to drive that car home and begin their cover-up, he might deserve some credit.

JMO.

 

[Solace]

That's what I remember.

Cindy told LE that she found a knife and washed it. There is a picture of a knife in the "evidence" file and it is clear from the photograph that there is a piece of duct tape fiber still attached to it. If I can find it I will post it, but I most definitely saw it in the Orlando site.

For all who are interested: Amazing work on the part of LE and it does not much matter that Cindy washed it. The fiber is still attached.

http://www.wftv.com/news/22576882/detail.html

 

[whiteangora]

Cindy told LE that she found a knife and washed it. There is a picture of a knife in the "evidence" file and it is clear from the photograph that there is a piece of duct tape fiber still attached to it. If I can find it I will post it, but I most definitely saw it in the Orlando site.

For all who are interested: Amazing work on the part of LE and it does not much matter that Cindy washed it. The fiber is still attached.

http://www.wftv.com/news/22576882/detail.html

There was fiber found on the knife but I don't think it was ever verified to be a match for the Henkel duct tape. One of the Orlando reporters may have stated as fact that it was duct tape but I never saw that in the forensic reports.

 

[Solace]

There was fiber found on the knife but I don't think it was ever verified to be a match for the Henkel duct tape. One of the Orlando reporters may have stated as fact that it was duct tape but I never saw that in the forensic reports.

You may be right. But a reasonable person viewing the knife that was found in the car and washed by Cindy and replaced in the drawer with the cutlery that was "rarely" used could "reasonably" assume that this fiber of duct tape came from the Henkel duct tape brand that was found in the house and on the face of the child. It is extremely damaging to KC.

And great work on the part of LE. I remember prosecutor Drane-Burdick (sp?) asking her what she did with the knife and Cindy saying I washed it and returned it to the drawer and DB said was this used often and she said no hardly ever. It is something that sociopath KC would do and figure she is smarter than everyone and no one would notice that the knife came from her house because they never used it.

These sociopaths are all idiots.

 

[Snaz]

Cindy told LE that she found a knife and washed it. There is a picture of a knife in the "evidence" file and it is clear from the photograph that there is a piece of duct tape fiber still attached to it. If I can find it I will post it, but I most definitely saw it in the Orlando site.

For all who are interested: Amazing work on the part of LE and it does not much matter that Cindy washed it. The fiber is still attached.

http://www.wftv.com/news/22576882/detail.html

Here's the thing that bothers me about Cindy and that knife.... apparently, that knife came from a set, so there was probably at least 5 others exactly like it. Knowing Cindy the way we do now, how can we be sure she gave LE THE knife that was actually in KC's car? Are we supposed to just take Cindy's word for it that that was the correct knife? We've all heard her comment about the dog's toothbrush, after all.....

I haven't seen anything in discovery that shows they confiscated all the knives (unless I missed it), so that has always bothered me. If it wasn't THE knife, that fiber could have come from anywhere....

 

[chefmom]

Here's the thing that bothers me about Cindy and that knife.... apparently, that knife came from a set, so there was probably at least 5 others exactly like it. Knowing Cindy the way we do now, how can we be sure she gave LE THE knife that was actually in KC's car? Are we supposed to just take Cindy's word for it that that was the correct knife? We've all heard her comment about the dog's toothbrush, after all.....

I haven't seen anything in discovery that shows they confiscated all the knives (unless I missed it), so that has always bothered me. If it wasn't THE knife, that fiber could have come from anywhere....

Cuz if there's an unknown fiber, there MUST be a Zanny! :crazy:

 

[nort]

In Cindys Depo IIRC I thought she said she found the knife in the crack of the seat. There may have been fibers from the seat material.

 

[Gnatcatcher]

http://www.wesh.com/video/17137062/detail.html

It's funny but the newscast allows this woman to blabber on and on endless about nothing but nonsense (and mistruths), and just as she's about to talk about the pants, they cut back to the studio. In the last 30 seconds or so, a reporter asks her about ZG, and she says it's ludicrous that people draw their own conclusions "Just like they did with the laundering of Casey's pants yesterday..." and then I can't make out what else she says.

 

[Solace]

Here's the thing that bothers me about Cindy and that knife.... apparently, that knife came from a set, so there was probably at least 5 others exactly like it. Knowing Cindy the way we do now, how can we be sure she gave LE THE knife that was actually in KC's car? Are we supposed to just take Cindy's word for it that that was the correct knife? We've all heard her comment about the dog's toothbrush, after all.....

I haven't seen anything in discovery that shows they confiscated all the knives (unless I missed it), so that has always bothered me. If it wasn't THE knife, that fiber could have come from anywhere....

You are correct. We are never told when they retrieve the knife from Cindy. They may have taken them all and found the fiber on one. Remember that Cindy says they NEVER used this set. So, if they never use it, it is likely that the knife with the fiber on it is the one that was used. But I understand all of you saying it could have come from anywhere. But if the fiber is consistent with the duct tape, it is certainly damaging, imo, to KC. Since there was duct tape around the baby's face and nose, some three times.

Of course it is my opinion only. But I see this as damaging to KC, especially if the fiber is consistent with duct tape.