Cher's Daughter Transitioning From Female to Male

[Nova]

I know a gay guy who has a twin sister(they were firstborns),and I can't help but wonder if that was a factor.(ie-too much female hormone overload?? or did it affect his brain development?) They were also premature,weighing less than 2 pds each.I wonder as well,if that was a factor..perhaps his brain didn't get a chance to fully develop in that area,and or,combined with having a twin sister in the womb,it could have been the combo of both.(his sister is straight,and married w children).
I think I read recently, that women that had a bro in the womb were more likely to not get married,or suffer from infertility.(someone correct me on that one if you know...it was one or the other).

Great posts, JMO!

Again, I'm not an expert or even really up on the latest literature. But to date I haven't heard of studies of fraternal twins. There are studies of identical twins which shows that even when they are raised apart, if one is gay, the other is much more likely to be gay. These results were important in suggesting a genetic basis for sexual orientation.

I think there almost have to be multiple causes, because sexual preference isn't really a simple, single trait (like eye color, say). We just talk about it as if it were.

 

[Nova]

Yup, Nova, I agree - it should not be a problem to be gay and I am glad it is getting a little easier to be happy with who we are. We still have a long way to go. My son and I were talking about this subject, as we often do and I told him I think the theory that being gay is to some extent prewired from the beginning of life is a positive piece of information in the sense that it takes the "choice" issue off the table for those so ignorant as to assert people choose a "sinful" (not my opinion) "lifestyle." I do believe it is pretty much there from the beginning, too. When I taught a group of 7 year olds (Jr. Great Books) there was a delightful little boy in the group that I asked my now 22 year old son about recently. I asked him if this boy was gay. He said, "Yeah, Mom. He is." (They are still friends). I told him I knew it when the kid was seven. Nothing sexual about it at that time. Maybe the kid didn't even realize it at that time, who knows? But I was pretty sure of it. Not that it mattered, but I could just tell. I have gay students and they are quite open about it and talk to me about it regularly. It is still a rough road, that is one reason they are at my alternative school, they hate the ignorant behaviors of some kids in the mainstream high school. I hate what they have to go through, but they are emerging strong and well-adjusted when they have enough acceptance and support at that age. I am glad to contribute to that and grateful for all they have taught me too.

Eve

It still shocks me sometimes that kids are out in middle and high school. Such a thing was unthinkable in my time!

Scientific research may make a difference to those on the center-right, who have heard about the so-called "choice" and don't know any better.

But I'm not optimistic about the far, religious right.

1. They don't really believe in science anyway.

2. They will point to alcoholism and say just because some have a genetic propensity for it doesn't mean they should choose to be drunks.

3. They will say that even if you are "wired that way," God says you have to suppress your desires.

(ETA: eve knows that I mean, but just to be clear: I am not talking about all religious people, by any means. On the contrary, there are many Christians in this country whose faith inspires them to be tolerant of human differences. Just last week, my mid-70s, lifelong devout Christian aunt told my sister that she thought opposing gay marriage was positively "un-Christian"!)

 

[eve]

It still shocks me sometimes that kids are out in middle and high school. Such a thing was unthinkable in my time!

Scientific research may make a difference to those on the center-right, who have heard about the so-called "choice" and don't know any better.

But I'm not optimistic about the far, religious right.

1. They don't really believe in science anyway.

2. They will point to alcoholism and say just because some have a genetic propensity for it doesn't mean they should choose to be drunks.

3. They will say that even if you are "wired that way," God says you have to suppress your desires.

(ETA: eve knows that I mean, but just to be clear: I am not talking about all religious people, by any means. On the contrary, there are many Christians in this country whose faith inspires them to be tolerant of human differences. Just last week, my mid-70s, lifelong devout Christian aunt told my sister that she thought opposing gay marriage was positively "un-Christian"!)

Well Nova, as an Episcopalian, I have taken it on the chin for our ordaining a gay Bishop ( and a woman as the head of our church) but as we like to say, we don't check our brains at the door. LOL. In fact we lost 10 families when we ordained a gay bishop on the east coast. That was the first time those people gave a damn what anyone was doing outside of Minnesota. Haha. God gave us heads and hearts, need I say more?

Eve

 

[Nova]

Well Nova, as an Episcopalian, I have taken it on the chin for our ordaining a gay Bishop ( and a woman as the head of our church) but as we like to say, we don't check our brains at the door. LOL. In fact we lost 10 families when we ordained a gay bishop on the east coast. That was the first time those people gave a damn what anyone was doing outside of Minnesota. Haha. God gave us heads and hearts, need I say more?

Eve

My sister and the aunt I mentioned are also Episcopalians. My husband used to be as well and occasionally suggests we attend our local Episcopalian church. I need to get over thinking of that denomination as "watered-down Catholicism." LOL.

Seriously, I remember a pamphlet from my sister's church that talked about the three prongs (I'm paraphrasing) of Episcopalian belief: Faith, Scripture and Reason. I was very impressed that the latter was included.

 

[passionflower]

Is the operation all done now?
Is Chas now legally Chaz now?
any new info?

 

[Nova]

IMO it's multiple causes.
I recall something about one of gay men's fingers tends being longer than the rest ,which indicates an overexposure to testosterone.and not many ppl know this,but...testosterone is a precursor to...estrogen.
I read somewhere that gay men don't tend to be wimps....usually they are very masculine men who tend to look for other masculine men.(I'm thinking there may have been more estrogen effect on the brain,not that it made them feminine).

JMO, I forgot to respond to this yesterday. IIRC, I think it's underexposure to testosterone in the womb. Most gay men and women have longer index fingers than most straight men. (I've forgotten the exact percentage; for gay men, it's something like 60%: significant but by no means "all.")

The danger I see in the way such studies are reported in the press is that it makes gay men sound somehow less than fully "male." By implication, that also suggests women are somehow "less" than "real men."

We should keep in mind that it is heterosexual men who are disabled, handicapped by their stubby pointer-fingers. This is why they can fix a car engine (big parts) but make lousy hair-stylists (fine strands).

(As for wimpishness, I'm not sure how to measure that. I think it's safe to say gay men are at least as diverse as straight men. There's no particular rule for effeminacy or masculinity, though there are cultural traditions in the gay community such as "camp," which is usually a performance of exaggerated maleness or femaleness.)

 

[Nova]

Is the operation all done now?
Is Chas now legally Chaz now?
any new info?

I haven't seen any new info, but surgical transformation is a long process. Responsible doctors require the "transitioner" to live for some time (2 or more years) as the target gender, while undergoing hormone treatments. Then there are multiple surgeries if the physical transformation is to be complete.

I'm reasonably sure Chaz hasn't done all that yet.

I still haven't seen any report that mentions whether Chaz even plans to have surgery. Most transgenders do not, according to net sites on the subject. (I believe I linked to one many pages above.)

 

[eve]

My sister and the aunt I mentioned are also Episcopalians. My husband used to be as well and occasionally suggests we attend our local Episcopalian church. I need to get over thinking of that denomination as "watered-down Catholicism." LOL.

Seriously, I remember a pamphlet from my sister's church that talked about the three prongs (I'm paraphrasing) of Episcopalian belief: Faith, Scripture and Reason. I was very impressed that the latter was included.

Yes, those are the 3 important elements! We also have a joke that where there are 4 Episcopalians gathered there is usually a "fifth!" LOL!

Seriously, watered down Catholicism it is not, though we share a similar liturgy (imo the beautiful parts) which tends to make many former Catholics comfortable. It is a faith of great "tolerance" though I do not like that word because it implies there is something negative to be merely "tolerated." I prefer the word "welcoming."

Eve

 

[Nova]

Yes, those are the 3 important elements! We also have a joke that where there are 4 Episcopalians gathered there is usually a "fifth!" LOL!

Seriously, watered down Catholicism it is not, though we share a similar liturgy (imo the beautiful parts) which tends to make many former Catholics comfortable. It is a faith of great "tolerance" though I do not like that word because it implies there is something negative to be merely "tolerated." I prefer the word "welcoming."

Eve

I trust you know I was kidding about the "watering down."

Just the other day, the Episcopal convention affirmed the ordination of gay clergy, a very brave move in the face of opposition from the international Anglican church.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31904949/ns/us_news-faith/

 

[southcitymom]

I trust you know I was kidding about the "watering down."

Just the other day, the Episcopal convention affirmed the ordination of gay clergy, a very brave move in the face of opposition from the international Anglican church.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31904949/ns/us_news-faith/

I almost started a thread about this because, as much as I can love any church, I love the Episcopalian church!

 

[eve]

I almost started a thread about this because, as much as I can love any church, I love the Episcopalian church!

I do too, south!:blowkiss:


Eve