Christmas Morning Picture of Burke and JB...

[rashomon]

DeeDee249,

What sexual abuse? Rashomon has suggested JonBenet's genital condition was within a normal range, and that not all girls have patent hymens etc.

I didn't suggest it was within a normal range, only that it might be not conclusive enough to exclude another explantion. (I'm only talking about the chronic signs, not the acutely infliced injury which bled, and the circumferential reddish hyperemia which was fresh too. If it had been an older injury, the hyperemia would have been pink, at least acccording to info from a poster on another forum who claims to have medical knowledge).
The chronic signs were:

Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular
congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation.

Also, the autopsy report compared to Dr. McCann's findings raises a lot of questions:
Why didn't Dr. Meyer notice any old injuries, like the sexual abuse experts did?
Why didn't he mention the unusual exposure of the rugae?
Why didn't he mention the irregularities at the edges of the hymen?

 

[rashomon]

The only reason I can possibly think of for the parents to have neglected to call for help if the head bash was done in a rage and not for the specific purpose of actually killing her was that if she had been hospitalized and a thourough physical exam done, the evidence of sexual abuse would be found. I believe one of the other coroners who reviewed the evidence (either Wecht or Spitz) said that if the vaginal trauma noted in the autopsy had been discovered in a hospital, the father would have been arrested. So there you have a good reason why the staging followed the head bash. That RN and garotte were the Rs "get out of jail free" card. It worked, because the Grand Jury came to exactly the conclusion the Rs wanted them to- that no parent could do that to their child. Finding the same evidence on a dead child rather than a live child is what allowed the Rs to get away with it. Because they could make it look like a kidnapper killed her.

But if she was afraid of discovery, then why did Patsy take JonBenet to the pediatrician to be treated for vaginitis? I have the impression that if there was sexual abuse, then Patsy did not know about it.
The rage attack and the sexual abuse needn't be correlated. Suppose John was JonBenet's chronic sexual abuser, and when Patsy tells him she killed JonBenet in a rage, it could be HE who suggested to her to stage it as a sexual predator scene.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Hmmmm....you may be right.

Only Patsy knows why she chose that song to sing, but it is a rather odd choice.

It could just be this part of the country, or the era Patsy grew up in, or having the same name as the original singer - Patsy.

Patsy Paugh was from West Virginia, and I am from Maryland. Patsy Cline is also from this area (Winchester, VA), and her first husband, Gerald Cline, was from Frederick, Maryland. In fact, I went to school (in Frederick County) with a Cline who claims to be a blood relation to Patsy Cline.

Patsy Ramsey just happens to have been of the right age to hear a lot of Patsy Cline of the radio as she grew up, and stations in the WV-VA-MD area are real big on local talent. No doubt if little Patsy Paugh listened to Patsy Cline in the latter 50s and early 60s when she was a child and Patsy Cline was in her heyday on radio, then Patsy Cline's songs would most likely end up in Patsy Paugh's head. And after all, they're both named Patsy - girls eat that same name stuff right up.

JSB, as SD would say.

 

[UKGuy]

I didn't suggest it was within a normal range, only that it was not conclusive enough to exclude another explantion. (I'm only talking about the chronic signs, not the acutely infliced injury which bled, and the circumferential reddish hyperemia which was fresh too. If it had been an older injury, the hyperemia would have been pink, at least acccording to info from a poster on another forum who claims to have medical knowledge).
The chronic signs were:

The autopsy report compared to Dr. McCann's findings raises a lot of questions:
Why didn't Dr. Meyer notice any old injuries, like the sexual abuse experts did?
Why didn't he mention the unusual exposure of the rugae?
Why didn't he mention the irregularities at the edges of the hymen?

rashomon,

I assumed from your previous post that you were saying that JonBenet's genital condition was consistent with the norm of her age group, and that speculation regarding chronic molestation may be ambiguous?

Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular
congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation.

That All of the sections contain vascular congestion suggest sexual contact prior to JonBenet's death?

Coroner Meyer likely considered his job was to make a finding on the cause of death, and leave potential prior sexual behaviour to the police. That is not to suggest he ignored the signs, since as I mentioned already he verbally remarked, as coroners do, that JonBenet had been digitally penetrated and subject to sexual activity. Coroner Meyer knew there was the possibility of a trial, and the police were probably asking him to leave specific findings out of the autopsy report, so the report is pared down to reflect this, consider the birefringement material and her neck abrasions, both are glossed over, the latter subsumed into a generalised finding.

I reckon all those present at the autopsy, and those investigators who had access to the full autopsy report, excepting Lou Smit et-al, knew they were dealing with the death of a six-year old girl who had a history of chronic and current sexual molestation. Whether they could link this directly to her death given the staging was another question.

The main questions are:
1. Was JonBenet sexually abused just prior to her death?
2. Had JonBenet been sexually abused in the past?
3. Is this linked with her death?

If you can answer yes to all three questions then we can speculate about a incestuous homicide?

What may allow the link in 3. is that her sexual assault was cleaned up and hidden from view.

What the foregoing does is take the available forensic evidence and offer a rationale leading to JonBenet's death, if you can knock it down or show that the medical evidence demonstrates it could never have occurred then we can try some other theory.


.

 

[JMO8778]

Only Patsy knows why she chose that song to sing, but it is a rather odd choice.

It could just be this part of the country, or the era Patsy grew up in, or having the same name as the original singer - Patsy.

Patsy Paugh was from West Virginia, and I am from Maryland. Patsy Cline is also from this area (Winchester, VA), and her first husband, Gerald Cline, was from Frederick, Maryland. In fact, I went to school (in Frederick County) with a Cline who claims to be a blood relation to Patsy Cline.

Patsy Ramsey just happens to have been of the right age to hear a lot of Patsy Cline of the radio as she grew up, and stations in the WV-VA-MD area are real big on local talent. No doubt if little Patsy Paugh listened to Patsy Cline in the latter 50s and early 60s when she was a child and Patsy Cline was in her heyday on radio, then Patsy Cline's songs would most likely end up in Patsy Paugh's head. And after all, they're both named Patsy - girls eat that same name stuff right up.

JSB, as SD would say.

good thoughts.I definitely think she was a show biz wannabe.

 

[UKGuy]

But if she was afraid of discovery, then why did Patsy take JonBenet to the pediatrician to be treated for vaginitis? I have the impression that if there was sexual abuse, then Patsy did not know about it.
The rage attack and the sexual aabsue needn't be correlated. Suppose John was JonBenet's chronic sexual abuser, and when Patsy tells him she killed JonBenet in a rage, it could be HE who suggested to her to stage it as a sexual predator scene.

rashomon,

The problem with the pediatrician visits is that any sexual abuse was not discovered, if there was ongoing sexual abuse how can visits that revealed nothing demonstrate anything about the person who made the decision to make the appointment, also I believe Dr. Beuf is on record stating he never gave JonBenet an invasive examination? Possibly he accepted what Patsy told him and prescribed for JonBenet in accordance with her wishes, she was paying the bills after all?

Suppose John was JonBenet's chronic sexual abuser, and when Patsy tells him she killed JonBenet in a rage, it could be HE who suggested to her to stage it as a sexual predator scene.

Same applies if he killed JonBenet and not Patsy. Also once JonBenet is dead, she cannot speak, John maybe suspected of her abuse, but it could never be proved. So for him to involve himself in staging her death and conspiring with Patsy to evade justice etc, puts himself in a far more serious position than sexually abusing JonBenet. imo the rage theory does not add up!


.

 

[Squishified]

Only Patsy knows why she chose that song to sing, but it is a rather odd choice.

It could just be this part of the country, or the era Patsy grew up in, or having the same name as the original singer - Patsy.

Patsy Paugh was from West Virginia, and I am from Maryland. Patsy Cline is also from this area (Winchester, VA), and her first husband, Gerald Cline, was from Frederick, Maryland. In fact, I went to school (in Frederick County) with a Cline who claims to be a blood relation to Patsy Cline.

Patsy Ramsey just happens to have been of the right age to hear a lot of Patsy Cline of the radio as she grew up, and stations in the WV-VA-MD area are real big on local talent. No doubt if little Patsy Paugh listened to Patsy Cline in the latter 50s and early 60s when she was a child and Patsy Cline was in her heyday on radio, then Patsy Cline's songs would most likely end up in Patsy Paugh's head. And after all, they're both named Patsy - girls eat that same name stuff right up.

JSB, as SD would say.

Also isn't "Crazy" the top played song on jukeboxes? I was half joking when I said it may have been a cry for help. I thought she sang it just days before JB was killed, but it was the year before.
I like the song but now whenever I hear it I'll imagine Patsy Ramsey performing it. That's a terrible mental image!

 

[JMO8778]

Also isn't "Crazy" the top played song on jukeboxes? I was half joking when I said it may have been a cry for help. I thought she sang it just days before JB was killed, but it was the year before.
I like the song but now whenever I hear it I'll imagine Patsy Ramsey performing it. That's a terrible mental image!

makes for Halloween horror... blue white-trimmed suits do as well.

 

[Squishified]

makes for Halloween horror... blue white-trimmed suits do as well.

LOL I'll have nightmares tonight!!

 

[coloradokares]

But if she was afraid of discovery, then why did Patsy take JonBenet to the pediatrician to be treated for vaginitis? I have the impression that if there was sexual abuse, then Patsy did not know about it.
The rage attack and the sexual aabsue needn't be correlated. Suppose John was JonBenet's chronic sexual abuser, and when Patsy tells him she killed JonBenet in a rage, it could be HE who suggested to her to stage it as a sexual predator scene.

Think that is not necessarily provable but I'd sure pause twice even before Id discount the notion

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

The problem with the pediatrician visits is that any sexual abuse was not discovered, if there was ongoing sexual abuse how can visits that revealed nothing demonstrate anything about the person who made the decision to make the appointment, also I believe Dr. Beuf is on record stating he never gave JonBenet an invasive examination? Possibly he accepted what Patsy told him and prescribed for JonBenet in accordance with her wishes, she was paying the bills after all?

But how could Patsy know Dr. Beuf would not insist on having this cleared up?

Same applies if he killed JonBenet and not Patsy. Also once JonBenet is dead, she cannot speak, John maybe suspected of her abuse, but it could never be proved. So for him to involve himself in staging her death and conspiring with Patsy to evade justice etc, puts himself in a far more serious position than sexually abusing JonBenet.

I think John conspired with Patsy to make LE focus elsewhere than on the family, and in case he was JonBenet's chronic abuser (without Patsy having a clue about it), to suggest to her that she stage a sexual predator scene would make sense if he wanted to obfuscate the signs of chronic abuse via the acute injury.

But if it was John who both abused and killed her - the biggest problem I have with a JDI theory: I just can't imagine Patsy would have covered up for John when finding out that he had not only sexually abused, but also killed her daughter. So she put a ligature around JonBenet's neck and wrote a ransom note to help John get away with it? No way imo. Jmpo, but I believe someone like Patsy would have tried to KILL John in that case, and not have covered up for him.

 

[UKGuy]

But how could Patsy know Dr. Beuf would not insist on having this cleared up?

I think John conspired with Patsy to make LE focus elsewhere than on the family, and in case he was JonBenet's chronic abuser (without Patsy having a clue about it), to suggest to her that she stage a sexual predator scene would make sense if he wanted to obfuscate the signs of chronic abuse via the acute injury.

But if it was John who both abused and killed her - the biggest problem I have with a JDI theory: I just can't imagine Patsy would have covered up for John when finding out that he had not only sexually abused, but also killed her daughter. So she put a ligature around JonBenet's neck and wrote a ransom note to help John get away with it? No way imo. Jmpo, but I believe someone like Patsy would have tried to KILL John in that case, and not have covered up for him.

But how could Patsy know Dr. Beuf would not insist on having this cleared up?

Having what cleared up? Patsy was paying the bills, Dr Beuf said yes when required and no when his invoices went unpaid.

I think John conspired with Patsy to make LE focus elsewhere than on the family, and in case he was JonBenet's chronic abuser (without Patsy having a clue about it), to suggest to her that she stage a sexual predator scene would make sense if he wanted to obfuscate the signs of chronic abuse via the acute injury.

A a sexual predator scene was not staged though was it, like Dr Beuf's non-discovery of JonBenet's abuse, both are elements in someones theory of the death of JonBenet, but there is no forensic evidence to back them up?

But if it was John who both abused and killed her - the biggest problem I have with a JDI theory: I just can't imagine Patsy would have covered up for John when finding out that he had not only sexually abused, but also killed her daughter. So she put a ligature around JonBenet's neck and wrote a ransom note to help John get away with it? No way imo. Jmpo, but I believe someone like Patsy would have tried to KILL John in that case, and not have covered up for him.

But maybe Patsy was not finding out that John had been abusing JonBenet maybe she had been colluding for a long period to allow this to occur, the most reasonable solution, although we may not know all the details, is that they were both involved, otherwise there is no incentive for either to become involved.

Incidentally Patsy did cover up for John. on at least two occassions she has publicly defended John against allegations of sexual abuse, one being the claim by Patsy that it could never have happened since Nedra was babysitting. Then there was her enlightenment during an interview when she was told explicitly that JonBenet had been chronically sexually abused. So at some point she must have become aware that someone in her household was actively sexually abusing JonBenet!


.

 

[JMO8778]

Having what cleared up? Patsy was paying the bills, Dr Beuf said yes when required and no when his invoices went unpaid.

I suspect Dr Beuf chose to ignore signs of sexual abuse in JB.Or perhaps he was even paid to be quiet about it.His behavior was very unprofessional..ie-doing things like hiding her medical records,and colluding with JR as far as providing an excuse for why Patsy should not be allowed to go down to LE HQ and talk to them.He should have encouraged her to go do what she could to help,it would empower her.(IF she wasn't guilty,that is).He willingly provided a shield for her;he appears to be a man with something to hide,IMO.

A a sexual predator scene was not staged though was it,

I think it was,a least initially.I think the ligatures suggest a sexual bondage scenario.

is that they were both involved, otherwise there is no incentive for either to become involved.

I agree ! both had something to hide,no doubt !
JR appeared even more anxious than Patsy did at times.

Incidentally Patsy did cover up for John. on at least two occassions she has publicly defended John against allegations of sexual abuse, one being the claim by Patsy that it could never have happened since Nedra was babysitting. Then there was her enlightenment during an interview when she was told explicitly that JonBenet had been chronically sexually abused. So at some point she must have become aware that someone in her household was actively sexually abusing JonBenet!


.

I would add the pageants to that list,why else downplay them???

 

[DeeDee249]

Rashomon- keep in mind that with all the visits to pediatrician, Dr. Boef never once did an internal exam on JBR. The evidence pointing to both chronic and acute abuse were discovered on autopsy. Forgive me for being graphic, but she was cut open and the internal structures of her vagina were viewed that way. Those things would never be seen at a physical exam where the doctor simply examines the external genital area.
BUT, I also feel there's something shady about Dr. B and his refusal to allow JBR's medical records to be examined. If there is nothing to hide- why would any doctor whose patient had been murdered not allow it?
The other point is something I made before- maybe someone here knows the answer, but not every coroner went to medical school. I know his title is DR. Meyer, but that could represent a PhD.

 

[UKGuy]

Rashomon- keep in mind that with all the visits to pediatrician, Dr. Boef never once did an internal exam on JBR. The evidence pointing to both chronic and acute abuse were discovered on autopsy. Forgive me for being graphic, but she was cut open and the internal structures of her vagina were viewed that way. Those things would never be seen at a physical exam where the doctor simply examines the external genital area.
BUT, I also feel there's something shady about Dr. B and his refusal to allow JBR's medical records to be examined. If there is nothing to hide- why would any doctor whose patient had been murdered not allow it?
The other point is something I made before- maybe someone here knows the answer, but not every coroner went to medical school. I know his title is DR. Meyer, but that could represent a PhD.

DeeDee249,
Dr. Beuf most likely went by what Patsy said e.g. skin rash from not drying etc, and if he ever looked it was probably an external view as in JonBenet removing her pants. Since there were never any internal examinations then patently no prior abuse could ever be discovered.


.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yes, that's what I said. I am sure at first Dr.Boef based a lot of his diagnosis on input from PR. But after 10-15 vaginal infections, I have to wonder why he didn't just DO an an internal exam. There are ways of doing less invasive exams on very young girls, I would think. After all, how many times does a doctor have to tell a mother that her daughter's bubble baths are causing her irritations before the mother learns to stop giving her daughter bubble baths. If I were that pediatrician, I'd have to wonder if the mom was of diminished mental capacity (obviously not the case here, PR was both educated and intelligent) OR wonder if there was something else going on. That many infections in a child that age would certainly provoke my interest.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, that's what I said. I am sure at first Dr.Boef based a lot of his diagnosis on input from PR. But after 10-15 vaginal infections, I have to wonder why he didn't just DO an an internal exam. There are ways of doing less invasive exams on very young girls, I would think. After all, how many times does a doctor have to tell a mother that her daughter's bubble baths are causing her irritations before the mother learns to stop giving her daughter bubble baths. If I were that pediatrician, I'd have to wonder if the mom was of diminished mental capacity (obviously not the case here, PR was both educated and intelligent) OR wonder if there was something else going on. That many infections in a child that age would certainly provoke my interest.

DeeDee249,
I agree, Dr. Beuf's lack of concern would probably be derived from Patsy and her requests. The Ramsey's paid his invoices so this will have moderated any independent action on his part. The withholding of JonBenet's medical records suggest both a strong financial relationship, and possibly one that has something to conceal?


.

 

[Solace]

DeeDee249,
I agree, Dr. Beuf's lack of concern would probably be derived from Patsy and her requests. The Ramsey's paid his invoices so this will have moderated any independent action on his part. The withholding of JonBenet's medical records suggest both a strong financial relationship, and possibly one that has something to conceal?


.

Steve Thomas says in his book that he did get the records where Patsy asked Dr. Beouf about the bedwetting. Just fyi.

 

[BBB167893]

Why didn't Dr. Meyer notice any old injuries, like the sexual abuse experts did?
Why didn't he mention the unusual exposure of the rugae?
Why didn't he mention the irregularities at the edges of the hymen?

I imagine he wasn't familiar with them, rashomon.

As for the "good" doctor, let me say this: in order for me to believe that the results of the examinations on the living body are legit, I have to believe that the autopsy results from the dead body are lies.

 

[DeeDee249]

I imagine he wasn't familiar with them, rashomon.

As for the "good" doctor, let me say this: in order for me to believe that the results of the examinations on the living body are legit, I have to believe that the autopsy results from the dead body are lies.

Meyer DID mention the hymenal erosion, reddish hyperemia, bruising, watery red fluid, blood in the vaginal vestibule and forchette. What he did NOT do was state what he though the reasons were for them.
As I mentioned, not every coroner is also a medical doctor. Coroner is a politically appointed office. Although his title was DR. Meyer, he may have been a PhD and NOT an MD.