Christmas Morning Picture of Burke and JB...

[UKGuy]

(rs&bbm)
UKG, there seems to be some confusion (not just on your part) about the separation between federal and state jurisdictions. Kidnapping and murder (and many other crimes of this nature) are crimes against “the people,” and therefore subject to state laws.

...

otg,
Thanks for your clarification, the intricacies of federal vs state law was lost on me, I thought that anyone involved post, ante whatever should be charged since there is no statute of limitations on a homicide charge. Whether they might be found guilty is another matter.

“Interestingly, the GJ says that the crime to which J&P were accessories after the fact was murder in the first degree. Putting aside highly unlikely forms of first-degree murder, I believe this means the GJ believed that the crime was either deliberate (planned) by Burke, or that it occurred while Burke was sexually assaulting his sister. (The latter seems to me much more likely.) Felony-murder (that is, killing while in the course of committing a felony) is first-degree murder in Colorado. There are a few felonies other than sexual assault that would support a felony-murder charge in theory (burglary, robbery), but none of them fits the facts as we (think we) understand them.”

BBM: That's interesting since it mirrors what Kolar opined, i.e. one person did it all, and it was premeditated?

Although I'm not sure if Kolar is dressing his theory up in medical terminology or that he has a valid point to make, e.g. I alleged BR might be a sociopath, someone else said no he has/had a medical condition, i.e. all those books purchased by the Paughs to read up on some psychological pathology?

We both seem to agree on the general outline of a BDI theory, one question for me is if we assume BR was responsible for any prior chronic abuse, now consider both his and JonBenet's attitude to being caught under the sheets by LHP, i.e. go away, why would BR need to whack JonBenet on the head?

Was BR a control freak at age 9, so as his behavior escalated, he lost it on Christmas Night?

.

 

[UKGuy]

...

singularity,

PATSY RAMSEY: This is a picture of me and Fleet White at the White's house, in their living room.

TOM HANEY: And when would that photo have been taken?

PATSY RAMSEY: Probably on the 21st.

Hey UK(or anyone), did she make a mistake saying the 21st and either meant the 23rd or Christmas? I'm confused. I do know they had a party earlier than the one on the 23rd but don't remember the date. Its in the transcripts or maybe on candyrose. Don't have the time to dig at the moment but maybe someone here remembers the date of that specific party. I do know one thing, JAR was at that party so it likely dates it earlier in the month if we're going by his supposed timeline in and out of Boulder.

This is an example of the R's giving confusing replies, PR is talking about Fleet White's party on the 25th unless PR dressed the same for the Ramsey Christmas Party on the 23rd?

TOM HANEY: And how about what John was wearing?

PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).

TOM HANEY: And --

PATSY RAMSEY: This part I remember.

TOM HANEY: He's wearing a black long sleeve --

PATSY RAMSEY: Shirt.

Here PR is referring to JR's Israeli manufactured black shirt.

JAR has an airtight alibi, including a near impossible time schedule to complete if he was involved?

One of these days some TV Chanel, e.g. ID, will run a JonBenet documentary along the lines did Burke do it, probably once JR has left us, since the GJ documents allow the inference if the parents are simply accessories who does that leave?


The way I read your sock fetish suggestion is that the investigators are asking supplementary questions, so the R's cannot work out what angle they are coming from?

.

 

[CorallaroC]

RSBM - from Singularity's post #474 previous page which includes this quoted transcript:

TOM HANEY: This photo is a large eight by ten, maybe you can describe it. It has no number.

PATSY RAMSEY: This is a picture of me and Fleet White at the White's house, in their living room.

TOM HANEY: And when would that photo have been taken?

PATSY RAMSEY: Probably on the 21st.

TOM HANEY: Okay.

PATSY RAMSEY: Evening.

TOM HANEY: And this is the sweater --

PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.

TOM HANEY: -- jacket?

PATSY RAMSEY: Fleet's jacket I bought for her.

TOM HANEY: And is that the same one that was turned over by Ellis Armistead to the police?

PATSY RAMSEY: Yes

~~~~
I don't want to interrupt the excellent discussion on past couple pages of this forum - but I wanted to highlight PR's answer to the Q about the photo of herself with FW. Based on her answer, did she simply mis-speak? or had she purchased a jacket or sweater for PW meant for FW?

Let's not confuse this snip with the more well-known women's sweater- jacket of which PR claims that she might have been wearing/borrowing PW's jacket which was similar to the jacket PR was wearing on 12-26 day of kidnapping, and which similar fibres were found in the paint tote.

THIS QUOTE from the transcript seems to imply that the jacket they are pointing to in the photo is FW's.

Or I am confused?

 

[OliviaG1996]

RSBM - from Singularity's post #474 previous page which includes this quoted transcript:

TOM HANEY: This photo is a large eight by ten, maybe you can describe it. It has no number.

PATSY RAMSEY: This is a picture of me and Fleet White at the White's house, in their living room.

TOM HANEY: And when would that photo have been taken?

PATSY RAMSEY: Probably on the 21st.

TOM HANEY: Okay.

PATSY RAMSEY: Evening.

TOM HANEY: And this is the sweater --

PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.

TOM HANEY: -- jacket?

PATSY RAMSEY: Fleet's jacket I bought for her.

TOM HANEY: And is that the same one that was turned over by Ellis Armistead to the police?

PATSY RAMSEY: Yes

~~~~
I don't want to interrupt the excellent discussion on past couple pages of this forum - but I wanted to highlight PR's answer to the Q about the photo of herself with FW. Based on her answer, did she simply mis-speak? or had she purchased a jacket or sweater for PW meant for FW?

Let's not confuse this snip with the more well-known women's sweater- jacket of which PR claims that she might have been wearing/borrowing PW's jacket which was similar to the jacket PR was wearing on 12-26 day of kidnapping, and which similar fibres were found in the paint tote.

THIS QUOTE from the transcript seems to imply that the jacket they are pointing to in the photo is FW's.

Or I am confused?

Maybe she meant "fleece" and misspoke, or the transcript writer misheard her? The latter is what I'm thinking happened.

 

[otg]

otg,
Thanks for your clarification, the intricacies of federal vs state law was lost on me, I thought that anyone involved post, ante whatever should be charged since there is no statute of limitations on a homicide charge. Whether they might be found guilty is another matter.

I know it’s confusing, especially for someone unfamiliar with US law. Hopefully my explanation is enough to satisfy those I’ve seen who have suggested the FBI take over the investigation from BPD. The fact is they simply can’t. They can assist BPD (and will, and did to a certain extent), and have reportedly even offered assistance. But unless it is requested, the authority is simply not theirs. However, since this is a state crime, it is within the authority of the governor to ask for the state police (CBI) to investigate or to appoint a special prosecutor should he/she (the governor) feel it is in the public interest. Before the grand jury was assembled, Colorado’s governor at the time threatened to do just that when it looked like Hunter was dragging his feet. It was that threat (IMO) that forced Hunter to take it to a GJ. He just didn’t think they would actually indict anyone.

The SoL varies with the crime. Essentially, there is no SoL for major felonies such as attempt, conspiracy, or solicitation to commit first-degree murder, kidnapping, or forgery. Lesser felonies such as wrongful death, manslaughter, sexual assault, aggravated incest, sexual exploitation of children, soliciting for child prostitution, or fraud have SoLs of anywhere from one year to ten. Crimes against children can be a separate class with the commencement of the SoL delayed because the victim may not be aware of the offence until they are much older. Here is a good explanation about that, including something new -- the “DNA exception:”

https://www.criminal-lawyer-colorado.com/colorado_sex_crimes_statute_of_limitations.html

The true bills on the Ramseys were not Class-I felonies, and therefore did have SoLs which have long since expired. But they didn’t expire in three years as is often written because the time was “tolled” for five years while they were living out of state (tip of the hat to questfortrue).

BBM: That's interesting since it mirrors what Kolar opined, i.e. one person did it all, and it was premeditated?

That’s possible, but that’s not what the lawyer is saying is “much more likely,” nor is it what Kolar necessarily insinuated. He suggested that in order for the death to be elevated to the “felony murder” level, the crime associated with her death would be kidnapping. While I agree that this approach might be used because of exactly what the law states, I think it would be a stretch to convince a jury that she was “kidnapped” by moving her against her will to another room within the house. Also, as you have so astutely pointed out, if she had already been killed, would it necessarily be something done against her will? Does anyone have a will after death? (Okay, that didn’t come out right. Many people have a will that was prepared before death for after death, but... oh, never mind -- the weeds are getting too tall for me here.) I think this stated tactic of Kolar’s might have been a way for him to avoid stating the obvious: that the associated crime (my state calls it “aggravating circumstances”) was the sexual assault. If you notice he only references his “Theory of Prosecution” that he submitted to the DA, but he doesn’t disclose it to us. His explanation for not disclosing it is as follows:

Some portions of the theory regarding the behavioral aspects of the crime were of a highly speculative nature, and I felt they are better reserved for a presentation to a trained law enforcement audience.

I realize that this situation is probably a little frustrating to the reader, but the foundation for this theory is interspersed throughout this manuscript and I will have to leave it to your imagination for the moment.
​

Although I'm not sure if Kolar is dressing his theory up in medical terminology or that he has a valid point to make, e.g. I alleged BR might be a sociopath, someone else said no he has/had a medical condition, i.e. all those books purchased by the Paughs to read up on some psychological pathology?

(No speculation from me on this.)

We both seem to agree on the general outline of a BDI theory, one question for me is if we assume BR was responsible for any prior chronic abuse, now consider both his and JonBenet's attitude to being caught under the sheets by LHP, i.e. go away, why would BR need to whack JonBenet on the head?

I thought you knew my belief on that. I think the head blow was to stop her scream.

Was BR a control freak at age 9, so as his behavior escalated, he lost it on Christmas Night?

(I don’t think so.)

 

[UKGuy]

I know it’s confusing, especially for someone unfamiliar with US law. Hopefully my explanation is enough to satisfy those I’ve seen who have suggested the FBI take over the investigation from BPD. The fact is they simply can’t. They can assist BPD (and will, and did to a certain extent), and have reportedly even offered assistance. But unless it is requested, the authority is simply not theirs. However, since this is a state crime, it is within the authority of the governor to ask for the state police (CBI) to investigate or to appoint a special prosecutor should he/she (the governor) feel it is in the public interest. Before the grand jury was assembled, Colorado’s governor at the time threatened to do just that when it looked like Hunter was dragging his feet. It was that threat (IMO) that forced Hunter to take it to a GJ. He just didn’t think they would actually indict anyone.

The SoL varies with the crime. Essentially, there is no SoL for major felonies such as attempt, conspiracy, or solicitation to commit first-degree murder, kidnapping, or forgery. Lesser felonies such as wrongful death, manslaughter, sexual assault, aggravated incest, sexual exploitation of children, soliciting for child prostitution, or fraud have SoLs of anywhere from one year to ten. Crimes against children can be a separate class with the commencement of the SoL delayed because the victim may not be aware of the offence until they are much older. Here is a good explanation about that, including something new -- the “DNA exception:”

https://www.criminal-lawyer-colorado.com/colorado_sex_crimes_statute_of_limitations.html

The true bills on the Ramseys were not Class-I felonies, and therefore did have SoLs which have long since expired. But they didn’t expire in three years as is often written because the time was “tolled” for five years while they were living out of state (tip of the hat to questfortrue).


That’s possible, but that’s not what the lawyer is saying is “much more likely,” nor is it what Kolar necessarily insinuated. He suggested that in order for the death to be elevated to the “felony murder” level, the crime associated with her death would be kidnapping. While I agree that this approach might be used because of exactly what the law states, I think it would be a stretch to convince a jury that she was “kidnapped” by moving her against her will to another room within the house. Also, as you have so astutely pointed out, if she had already been killed, would it necessarily be something done against her will? Does anyone have a will after death? (Okay, that didn’t come out right. Many people have a will that was prepared before death for after death, but... oh, never mind -- the weeds are getting too tall for me here.) I think this stated tactic of Kolar’s might have been a way for him to avoid stating the obvious: that the associated crime (my state calls it “aggravating circumstances”) was the sexual assault. If you notice he only references his “Theory of Prosecution” that he submitted to the DA, but he doesn’t disclose it to us. His explanation for not disclosing it is as follows:

Some portions of the theory regarding the behavioral aspects of the crime were of a highly speculative nature, and I felt they are better reserved for a presentation to a trained law enforcement audience.

I realize that this situation is probably a little frustrating to the reader, but the foundation for this theory is interspersed throughout this manuscript and I will have to leave it to your imagination for the moment.
​

(No speculation from me on this.)


I thought you knew my belief on that. I think the head blow was to stop her scream.


(I don’t think so.)

otg,

Also, as you have so astutely pointed out, if she had already been killed, would it necessarily be something done against her will? Does anyone have a will after death?

Patently not, consider a corpse in a morgue can you kidnap a stiff, answers on a postcard please?

I think this stated tactic of Kolar’s might have been a way for him to avoid stating the obvious: that the associated crime (my state calls it “aggravating circumstances”) was the sexual assault.

...

Some portions of the theory regarding the behavioral aspects of the crime were of a highly speculative nature, and I felt they are better reserved for a presentation to a trained law enforcement audience.

BBM: that's what I was referring to when i used the term sociopath and Kolar suggests:

I realize that this situation is probably a little frustrating to the reader, but the foundation for this theory is interspersed throughout this manuscript and I will have to leave it to your imagination for the moment.

BBM: so that's what I did and came up with sociopath.

I thought you knew my belief on that. I think the head blow was to stop her scream.

Did you hear her scream?

What about all the bruising on her body, those strange marks, the use of the paintbrush, where do these fit into a reactive assault resulting in homicide?

Remember, allegedly, it was JonBenet who told LHP to Go Away, so why would JonBenet be screaming about something that had happened in the past?

So if BR never lost it why whack JonBenet on the head, why not a hand over the mouth, since by definition JonBenet, was close by?

Kolar does appear to suggest that BR's behavior escalated with a premeditated assault on Christmas Night.

Not saying I agree with everything he says, I'm just trying to elucidate aspects of his theory, e.g. was whacking JonBenet on the head premeditated or as you suggest a response during an assault?

Also did BR not tell DS that JonBenet was whacked on the head with a hammer, ahead of the autopsy report release, my understanding is that it was DS who revealed this?

.

 

[UKGuy]

1997-03-25: Trip to Georgia mirrors Boulder police interviews

A Ramsey private investigator recently traveled to Atlanta to determine whether sexual abuse occurred within the family, sources said Monday. Over the past few days, a Ramsey representative has interviewed friends and associates in Georgia about the family's behavior. Several of the investigator's questions apparently mirrored those police asked during earlier interrogations related to the JonBenet Ramsey homicide, sources said.

"(He) wanted to know things like my opinions on if I thought it was possible that JonBenet were molested, if the older children liked the younger children, and how the children acted around their dad and other people," said a family friend in Georgia, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "He seemed to get really specific when talking about JonBenet, but (he) also seemed to focus on Burke (JonBenet's 10-year-old brother) and how he behaved, too."

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-sexual-abuse.htm

.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Have a question in my mind.. JB's cause of death was head bash and strangulation.. The rope and garrote was left on the crime scene ...there was a huge staging in the basement going on but why was the instrument of head bash hidden and not thrown near JB's body as well ? maybe gloves was used only during srangulatıon and thats why.. If it was the flashlight why not throw it in WC?
Maybe it was a specific item belonging to sb from the house and would seem distinguishing..

Could be staging after staging took place. The ransom note probably was written between those staging sessions as it only sounds like a fabrication of a kidnapping for money (foreign faction ) not look like to be authored by a sadistic pedophily. So methinks the garrote and certainly the paintbrush was added after the RN ...

sorry for digressing

 

[UKGuy]

Have a question in my mind.. JB's cause of death was head bash and strangulation.. The rope and garrote was left on the crime scene ...there was a huge staging in the basement going on but why was the instrument of head bash hidden and not thrown near JB's body as well ? maybe gloves was used only during srangulatıon and thats why.. If it was the flashlight why not throw it in WC?
Maybe it was a specific item belonging to sb from the house and would seem distinguishing..

Could be staging after staging took place. The ransom note probably was written between those staging sessions as it only sounds like a fabrication of a kidnapping for money (foreign faction ) not look like to be authored by a sadistic pedophily. So methinks the garrote and certainly the paintbrush was added after the RN ...

sorry for digressing

MURDERER_SERVANT,

Could be staging after staging took place.

I reckon your on the right track. Patently the RN was one of the last items constructed, suggesting the abduction scenario was the last in a possible sequence of stagings?

Here is my thoughts:

1. BR stages

2. PR stages

3. JR stages

This is why there is forensic evidence from all three R's located at the staged crime-scene, i.e. the wine-cellar, otherwise it should not be there, get that?

Just how could it get there: prior staging and the original homicide.


.

 

[singularity]

JAR has an airtight alibi, including a near impossible time schedule to complete if he was involved?

.

He may have an air tight alibi but IMO that does not give him a free pass. His area of the house is a complete mess, oddities in his room that are discussed in the interviews, the photographs in the basement that may or may not have come from his room, and last but not least is his suitcase containing a semen stained blanket and Dr. Seuss book in close proximity to his murdered sister.

That Lucy's got some splainin' to do.

The way I read your sock fetish suggestion is that the investigators are asking supplementary questions, so the R's cannot work out what angle they are coming from?
.

It's a pattern repeated throughout the interviews. If these are just supplementary questions that mean nothing, why keep going back to the same thing?

Just like with the western/cowgirl thing in their lives.....there's something to it. At least one person in that family had a thing for that. You don't continually dress up your daughter in these outfits/boots and even have Christmas trees with western themed items(including boots) if it means nothing.

I always picked up on the western theme due to photographs and some of the statements. It was later on when reading the transcripts multiple times I noticed the pattern of them digging for info regarding boots/shoes/socks to the point where it isn't necessary and redundant. If they are climbing up that tree for absolutely no reason at all and creating their own red herring out of thin air, they are even more incompetent than I thought.

If/when I get the "all clear" from the doctor, I will take the time to go through all the transcripts and compile all the discussions on this topic and also try to find all the pictures that have a western theme to them.

A Ramsey private investigator recently traveled to Atlanta to determine whether sexual abuse occurred within the family, sources said Monday. Over the past few days, a Ramsey representative has interviewed friends and associates in Georgia about the family's behavior. Several of the investigator's questions apparently mirrored those police asked during earlier interrogations related to the JonBenet Ramsey homicide, sources said.

"(He) wanted to know things like my opinions on if I thought it was possible that JonBenet were molested, if the older children liked the younger children, and how the children acted around their dad and other people," said a family friend in Georgia, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "He seemed to get really specific when talking about JonBenet, but (he) also seemed to focus on Burke (JonBenet's 10-year-old brother) and how he behaved, too."

Boy I'd love to have a conversation with him.

Have a question in my mind.. JB's cause of death was head bash and strangulation.. The rope and garrote was left on the crime scene ...there was a huge staging in the basement going on but why was the instrument of head bash hidden and not thrown near JB's body as well ? maybe gloves was used only during srangulatıon and thats why.. If it was the flashlight why not throw it in WC?
Maybe it was a specific item belonging to sb from the house and would seem distinguishing..

I don't think we'll ever know what was used as a weapon. I have major doubts on that flashlight. I think it was used while lights were off and it was simply left in that spot.

Here's a list of items taken from the home....

3 1/2" computer discs 2
AD booklet and 2 newspapers 1 26-Dec
angel from Christmas tree 1 26-Dec
Apple Guide CD Roms Titles book 1
audio tape 1
bag containing ornaments Santa Claus Swift 1 26-Dec
ball point pen 1 26-Dec
baseball bat 1
baseball bat 1
bath robe 1
bath towel 1
bed sheet 1
bed sheet 1
Betamax video tape 1
Betamax video tape 1
bike registration 1 26-Dec
birthday card 1 26-Dec
black felt pens 2 26-Dec
blanket covering body 1 26-Dec
blanket White, in wine cellar 1 26-Dec
blanket black and gold 1
blouse 1 26-Dec
book USN OCS Seachest 801 1 26-Dec
booklet how to use total one security control 1 26-Dec
bow satin 1
bowl 1 26-Dec
brick 1
brick Red clay 1
camera with 3 rolls 35 mm film 4
canvas bag in crawlspace 1 26-Dec
carpet 8
cassette tape 1
CD Rom discs and computer disc (2 discs and 1 disc) 3
CD Rom discs and two computer discs 7
CD Roms. floppy discs (2 & 3) 5
Christmas card 1
Christmas ornament w/string 1 26-Dec
cigarette butts, leaves & bag 26-Dec
comforter from victim's bed 1 26-Dec
comforter Black 1
Compuserve book 1
computer book 1
computer disc 1
computer disc 1
computer discs 2
computer discs 2
computer hard drive 1
computer monitor 1
computer mouse 1
cotton from cellar room 26-Dec
Dave Berry Cyberspace book 1
door from basement 1 26-Dec
door lock 1
door lock 1
Dyson discs 10
earring found in street 1 26-Dec
envelope w/carpet samples 1
envelope w/prayer book 1 26-Dec
evergreen needles Artificial 26-Dec
FAO Schwartz Partially wrapped 1 26-Dec
FAO Schwartz Partially wrapped 1 26-Dec
FAO Schwartz Partially wrapped 1 26-Dec
felt pen 1 26-Dec
felt tip pen 1 26-Dec
felt tip pen 1 26-Dec
fibers from area by victim 26-Dec
fibers from wine cellar 26-Dec
fibers from under body 26-Dec
fibers vacuumed 26-Dec
fibers from victim's bed 26-Dec
fibers From victim's pillow 26-Dec
fibers vacuumed from victim's bed 26-Dec
fibers Vacuumed from victim's pillow and bedspread 26-Dec
finger prints -hand drawing 26-Dec
fingerprints of victim 26-Dec
flashlight 1
floppy discs 5.25" 3
fountain pen 1 26-Dec
garland
garland 1
garland 34
gift box w/black velvet 1
glass broken, from wine cellar 1 26-Dec
glass 1 26-Dec
golf club 1
golf club cover 1
golf clubs 2
hair found in brush in Mr. Ramsey's bathroom 26-Dec
hair blonde
hair fibers from floor of wine cellar 26-Dec
hair fibers from victim's pillow 26-Dec
hair fibers from Mr. & Mrs. Ramsey's bed 26-Dec
hammer 1
hypercard disc 1
I didn't know Compuserve book 1
laptop computer 1
legal notepad 1 26-Dec
legal notepads 2 26-Dec
legal pad white lined 1 26-Dec
legal pad 1 26-Dec
letter to Santa 1 26-Dec
liquid from toilet 1
liquid from toilet 1
lock 1
Macintosh CD Rom discs 8
Macintosh computer 1
Macintosh computer disc 1
Macintosh keyboard 1
Macintosh McWrite computer disc 1
Macintosh system discs 8 26-Dec
Macintosh users guidebook 1
magazine articles 2 26-Dec
magic marker 1 26-Dec
marker 1 26-Dec
marker 1 26-Dec
marker "1/29/96" annotated 1 26-Dec
marker black 1
marker and pens One marker, two pens 3 26-Dec
markers black 3 26-Dec
markers large 3 26-Dec
Microsoft Word manuals and disc 1
misc. floppy discs 8
modem with power cord 1
My Science Project" from Burke's bedroom 1 26-Dec
NEC computer disc 1
NEC disc 1
NEC floppy disc 1
newspaper article 1 26-Dec
nightgown Pink, Barbie, from wine cellar 1 26-Dec
note handwritten 1 26-Dec
note 1 26-Dec
note Handwritten, "12/31/96" annotated 1 26-Dec
notepad 1 26-Dec
notepad 1 26-Dec
notepad yellow, w/writing 1 26-Dec
notepad 1 26-Dec
notepad "1/29/96" annotated 1 26-Dec
notepad w/writing 1 26-Dec
ornament broken, purple, from basement 1 26-Dec
outer disc users guide and papers 1
paint brush Broken 1 26-Dec
Paint tray 1 26-Dec
pants black & gray, girls 1
pants mens 1
Paper blue, near rear south facing door 1 26-Dec
paper brown 1 26-Dec
paper w/names and phones # 1 26-Dec
Pen 1 26-Dec
pen black 1 26-Dec
pen black 1
pens 2 26-Dec
pens 5 26-Dec
Pentax camera and film 2
phone and address book 1 26-Dec
photo's 6
photos of victim 3
picture framed, of JonBenet 1 26-Dec
picture framed, of Burke and JonBenet 1 26-Dec
piece of window broken 1 26-Dec
piece of window broken 1 26-Dec
piece of window broken 1 26-Dec
piece of window broken 1 26-Dec
pillowcase 1 26-Dec
pocket knife red, w/broken ornament 1 26-Dec
Prodigy Parselwork 1
Ramsey residence flier 1 26-Dec
Red line users guide and disc 1
research paper and drawings Victims 3 26-Dec
rolls of film 35 mm 2
Rolodex in Mr. Ramsey's desk 1 26-Dec
rope from backyard 1 26-Dec
rope 1 26-Dec
Santa Claus suit 1 26-Dec
sharpie 1 26-Dec
sharpie 1 26-Dec
sharpie "1/29/96" annotated 1 26-Dec
sharpie "1/29/96" annotated 1 26-Dec
sharpie marker 1 26-Dec
sheet top 1 26-Dec
sheet Bottom 1 26-Dec
sheet black, velvet 1
sheet bottom 1
sheet metal black, in wine cellar 1 26-Dec
sheet of paper 1 26-Dec
shirt black 1
shoes 2 26-Dec
sleeping mask 1 26-Dec
spoon 1 26-Dec
string white, from sled 1 26-Dec
suitcase blue 1 26-Dec
supramodem disc 1
sweater black/red/green christmas 1
sweatpants blue 1
sweatshirt Avalanche, covering body 1 26-Dec
sweatshirt gray 1
tights black 1
tights black and white 1
tights black 1
tissue 1
toilet seat lid 1 26-Dec
toilet tissue 1 26-Dec
towel 1
trousers black 1
turtleneck velvet 1
underwear 1 26-Dec
underwear girls 1 26-Dec
underwear girls 1 26-Dec
underwear girls 1 26-Dec
underwear girls 1 26-Dec
underwear Girls 5 26-Dec
underwear 1
underwear childs 1
underwear childs 1
underwear childs 1
underwear mens 1
underwear Girls 2
underwear 1
various computer discs 38
VCR tapes 2
vest black, velvet 1
VHS tape 1
VHS tape 1
VHS tape 1
VHS tape 1
VHS tapes 15
VHS tapes 9
VHS tapes 17
VHS tapes 13
VHS tapes "4 (5)" 4
VHS tapes 7
VHS tapes 3
VHS video tape 1
VHS video tapes 2
VHS videotape 1
VHS videotape 1
VHS videotapes 2
VHS videotapes 7
video cassette 1
video cassette 1
video cassette tape 1
video cassettes 2
Video from Hallway 1
video tape 1
video tapes 22
video tapes 10
video tapes 20
video tapes 10
window broken 1 26-Dec
Window grate 1 26-Dec
Wire near body 1 26-Dec
Wire tied in knot 1 26-Dec
Wooden shards wooden, near paint tray 26-Dec

----

Many assume its the flashlight or golf club, maybe a bat. How about that brick? UK brought up the possibility of the hammer.

Also did BR not tell DS that JonBenet was whacked on the head with a hammer, ahead of the autopsy report release,

While I am not BDI, I did find that interesting to say the least and if memory serves me correctly, he had also mentioned she was stabbed. Other than a sexual assault with the paint brush, she wasn't stabbed.

 

[otg]

otg,

Patently not, consider a corpse in a morgue can you kidnap a stiff, answers on a postcard please?

Oh, c’mon, UKG. You know better than to ask me for answers to anything on a postcard. I can’t even write my name on a postcard without running out of room and boring the recipient to tears. But back to your question... The crime of moving or hiding a corpse without lawful authority has its own law: Abuse of a Corpse (C.R.S. 18-13-101), and includes anything done to the body or remains “that would outrage normal family sensibilities.” This was one of the 60 some-odd charges Aaron Thompson was convicted of even though the body of his daughter (Aaroné) was never found, and he never confessed to doing anything to the body. Prosecutors simply knew and convinced a jury that he had to have hidden the body since it wasn't in her home.

BBM: that's what I was referring to when i used the term sociopath and Kolar suggests:

BBM: so that's what I did and came up with sociopath.

I knew what you were referring to. I’m just not qualified to declare someone a sociopath because of childhood behavior or something that happened when he/she was a child.

Did you hear her scream?

Do you feel that any of us need to personally witness something that has been published as possible evidence? Investigators put enough stock in the report to do acoustic testing to see if the Stantons could have heard a scream coming from the Ramsey basement. While Mrs. Stanton changed her statement after the Ramsey lawyers got to her, they believed (and I do too) that someone screamed. Stanton said it sounded like the scream of a child.

What about all the bruising on her body, those strange marks, the use of the paintbrush, where do these fit into a reactive assault resulting in homicide?

IMO, not all of them do, but we’re getting into something a lot more complicated to explain than is justified for this conversation.

Remember, allegedly, it was JonBenet who told LHP to Go Away, so why would JonBenet be screaming about something that had happened in the past?

Being penetrated by the end of a paintbrush was not something that necessarily had happened before under the covers.

So if BR never lost it why whack JonBenet on the head, why not a hand over the mouth, since by definition JonBenet, was close by?

Panic, fear of being caught, quick response with something close at hand.

Kolar does appear to suggest that BR's behavior escalated with a premeditated assault on Christmas Night.

Exactly!

Not saying I agree with everything he says, I'm just trying to elucidate aspects of his theory, e.g. was whacking JonBenet on the head premeditated or as you suggest a response during an assault?

No premeditation, IMHO. (See reasons above.)

Also did BR not tell DS that JonBenet was whacked on the head with a hammer, ahead of the autopsy report release, my understanding is that it was DS who revealed this?

The conversation between Burke and Doug Stine was overheard by the pitbull and related to another person who then told investigators. I don’t think it included anything about a hammer. Rather, it was about how she was strangled before (I think) it had been reported publicly that she had been strangled. The idea of being struck by a hammer came from the psychologist’s account of Burke making a striking motion with his arm as one would do with a hammer. The depressed fracture does not appear (to me anyway) to be from any kind of hammer I am familiar with.

 

[otg]

(rs&bbm)

Have a question in my mind.. JB's cause of death was head bash and strangulation.. The rope and garrote was left on the crime scene ...there was a huge staging in the basement going on but why was the instrument of head bash hidden and not thrown near JB's body as well ?

Perhaps the item used as a bludgeon was hidden in plain sight. Investigators were told to search for anything that could be used as a bludgeon. How many things could have been used in such a way that were not taken into evidence? I know of one that was moved after CSIs left, but was not taken into evidence:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Fractures-The-Weapon&p=10634184#post10634184

 

[UKGuy]

Oh, c’mon, UKG. You know better than to ask me for answers to anything on a postcard. I can’t even write my name on a postcard without running out of room and boring the recipient to tears. But back to your question... The crime of moving or hiding a corpse without lawful authority has its own law: Abuse of a Corpse (C.R.S. 18-13-101), and includes anything done to the body or remains “that would outrage normal family sensibilities.” This was one of the 60 some-odd charges Aaron Thompson was convicted of even though the body of his daughter (Aaroné) was never found, and he never confessed to doing anything to the body. Prosecutors simply knew and convinced a jury that he had to have hidden the body since it wasn't in her home.


I knew what you were referring to. I’m just not qualified to declare someone a sociopath because of childhood behavior or something that happened when he/she was a child.


Do you feel that any of us need to personally witness something that has been published as possible evidence? Investigators put enough stock in the report to do acoustic testing to see if the Stantons could have heard a scream coming from the Ramsey basement. While Mrs. Stanton changed her statement after the Ramsey lawyers got to her, they believed (and I do too) that someone screamed. Stanton said it sounded like the scream of a child.


IMO, not all of them do, but we’re getting into something a lot more complicated to explain than is justified for this conversation.


Being penetrated by the end of a paintbrush was not something that necessarily had happened before under the covers.


Panic, fear of being caught, quick response with something close at hand.


Exactly!


No premeditation, IMHO. (See reasons above.)


The conversation between Burke and Doug Stine was overheard by the pitbull and related to another person who then told investigators. I don’t think it included anything about a hammer. Rather, it was about how she was strangled before (I think) it had been reported publicly that she had been strangled. The idea of being struck by a hammer came from the psychologist’s account of Burke making a striking motion with his arm as one would do with a hammer. The depressed fracture does not appear (to me anyway) to be from any kind of hammer I am familiar with.

otg,
Abuse of a Corpse that's the one. Also here is my Last Will and Testament, i.e. once I'm deceased I have no will.

Being penetrated by the end of a paintbrush was not something that necessarily had happened before under the covers.

Sure, but when was the paintbrush used, some think it was postmortem behavior?

No premeditation, IMHO. (See reasons above.)

You could right, particularly if Kolar has matched his theory to suit what he cannot talk about.

The conversation between Burke and Doug Stine was overheard by the pitbull and related to another person who then told investigators. I don’t think it included anything about a hammer. Rather, it was about how she was strangled before (I think) it had been reported publicly that she had been strangled

Well that's two occasions BR was citing details of a homicide at which he was absent.

.

 

[sgrump]

I just want to point out the clear distinction in the inventory of 'hair' and 'hair fibers'. The difference being hair is human and hair fibers are manmade and used in wigs such as those on the My Twinn and American Girl dolls. In Police File interviews there were scant questions for the Ramseys concerning wigs that went nowhere.

IMO the wrong questions were asked.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Hi Singularity,

I’ve never heard of any federal charges which could be applied, but I can comment on the theory of kidnapping which Kolar addressed.

At one time Kolar believed the kidnapping statute could be used to designate a felony action in a court trial. The commission of a separate felony during which someone dies can trigger the felony murder rule. You likely already know this, but for the benefit of someone new reading, with felony murder it does not matter which R did what. Without having built that ligature with the stick attached or having anything to do with pulling the cord, one can still be charged with felony murder.

A number of jurisdictions have something on the books with a definition of kidnapping and, in general, these laws include a reference something like “carried or detained and without lawful excuse.”

A definition of kidnapping, is written in Colorado statutes. If I understand Kolar’s reasoning, someone moved the child against her will or without her consent for an unlawful purpose. The statute reads:

According to C.R.S. 18-3-301, a person commits first degree kidnapping if s/he carries any person from one place to another using force; or persuades another to move; or imprisons or secrets any person with the intent to force the victim to make any concession or give up anything of value in order to secure release. A person committing first degree kidnapping is guilty of a class 1 felony if the victim suffered bodily injury.

(Some have reasoned that persuading her to go downstairs for molestation might have occurred, but I’m not sure that there wouldn’t be some difficult legal hurdles to overcome in following that path.)

I know other issues in a court case might arise if she was both struck and strangled outside the wine cellar, OR if the defense hinted that this is what happened, then no moving of her unconscious body occurred, so no felony kidnapping took place and the felony murder rule can’t be triggered.

Thank you for the photos of JonBenet. In an interview Patsy denied ever having seen a rope like that, and, lo and behold, there she is in a school photo shoot with a very similar rope.

Here are a couple of other photos.The first is one of a sweet innocent toddler.The other, further down the road, a photo of her at a glamour shoot with, imo, a very sad expression.



View attachment 97919

Wow. That is a very haunting photo. To see an expression like that on a child's face..... wow. Just wow.

 

[singularity]

I just want to point out the clear distinction in the inventory of 'hair' and 'hair fibers'. The difference being hair is human and hair fibers are manmade and used in wigs such as those on the My Twinn and American Girl dolls. In Police File interviews there were scant questions for the Ramseys concerning wigs that went nowhere.

IMO the wrong questions were asked.

Thar's the understatement of the century. Its like they weren't even prepared for the interviews. Its absurd.

 

[IDK]

Hello, I am interested in reading a summary of the case since I have only followed it sporadically over the years. Which books or resources do you recommend as being mostly objective and informative? Thanks in advance.

 

[icedtea4me]

Wow. That is a very haunting photo. To see an expression like that on a child's face..... wow. Just wow.

She was doing a photo shoot so it wouldn't be at all surprising if the photographer modeled the expression for her and then had her do it for the pic.

 

[armywife210]

She was doing a photo shoot so it wouldn't be at all surprising if the photographer modeled the expression for her and then had her do it for the pic.

Yea but she just looks excruciatingly sad. I cannot imagine asking a child to make that face.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[AndHence]

So has the notepad issue been resolved? John was questioned about it the day before Patsy and he appears to confirm that the photo shows where he picked up the notepad that he gave to investigators when they asked for handwriting samples. This would put to rest the assertion that the notepad had been put away after the murder and that the Christmas photo shows the notepad in another location. Is there any evidence that the notepad was in a different place? Patsy's interview makes it seem confusing, but John's does not.