Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #2

[Bartholemeus]

Do a google image search on RAC Van Perth.

Not sure if they were white in colour back then? I do recall them being yellow. Sort of Citroen panel van looking.

 

[Criminalmimes]

Generally speaking these days they're yellow with a light up sign on top, but they've become a lot more official looking in the past decade. I would imagine in the 90s a car with a light on top and magnetic logo on the side wouldn't have drawn attention.
From memory they were usually station wagons, but not exclusively.

 

[Criminalmimes]

On the other thread it was discussed about how police deduced the girls (or at the very least CG) died the same night as their abduction. I saw quite a lot of talk about etymology - did anyone look at environmental indicators (ie ash from fires)? Or body factors like stomach contents?

 

[Sutton]

The Google pics show very sleek, bright looking vehicles. I would notice one of those. But maybe, as mentioned, they were just a decal and light in the 90's, and I might not home in on one. Station wagons have never been common in my area, I have seen less than 5 in my life. But if they were common in the area, then who would notice? I think the RAC is a possibility, but Iike police impersonator better.


I have never read anything about entomology and this case. Is that on BF?

 

[Sutton]

I wanted to post the "insight" I had a few weeks ago. It isn't really an insight, as it's been discussed before, but I could only find brief allusions to it. It's about the MM video and I was trying to locate more details about the alternate version. But there is no support for that claim.

Anyways, I am not really interested in MM, but in JR.

At 11:41pm JR, Linda D, and other friends leave the Continental and walk to Club Bayview. JR doesn't really want to go, and Linda actually says JR "couldn't stand the place." But JR does go along. Besides, the Conti was closing at midnight.

Once there, they realize they don't want to wait in line. A few of the girls are tired and they decide to go back to one of the girl's places to have a few more drinks. But JR doesn't want to go home. Linda says she could tell. When the group goes to hail a taxi, JR suddenly announces she's staying behind, and she walks away.

Her friends pull around in the taxi and ask her again to come with. JR declines, saying she'll call Linda the following day.
At 11:58pm security video shows JR standing outside the Conti by a light or traffic post. There seem to be quite a few people nearby, possibly exiting the Conti.
JR is looking towards Gujary St. She walks out into the road, possibly to cross the street or hail a taxi or because she thought her ride was pulling up. It is still 11:58pm, only 17 minutes since she originally left the pub with her friends.

The video cuts to 12:00am, and JR is standing by the post again. At 12:01am, MM approaches and JR gives a smile of recognition or possibly he just says something that makes her laugh. MM disappears from the video. At 12:02am, JR is alone by the post (group of people nearby). At 12:04am she looks at her watch. She is gone from view during the next shot, it is still 12:04am.

So...Why didn't Jane get a taxi with her friends? What did she think she was going to do? She had a destination in mind. The Conti was closing. She didn't like Club Bay View. Was there another club she was going to?

Linda said JR wasn't ready to go home. So what was she doing? I can see going to a pub alone (if there were any still open), but not so much a club.

Was JR meeting someone? Was it pre-planned? If so, why not mention it to her friends? Did she flirt with someone in the Conti and hope to run into him before he left for the evening?

It just doesn't make sense for JR to not go with her friend(s), but have no plan, other than standing by a post.

 

[Bartholemeus]

I have a theory on this;

I think a guy she liked was at Conti and she waited outside hoping that when this guy leaves he'd approach her. He didn't so she left. I think she either got into a cab or car out the front or walked around the corner onto a deserted Gugeri St and got in a car there.

She could have met someone earlier in the night and had a pre-arranged meeting but why did she agree to go to Club (locals refer to CBV as Club, Clubba or Club Bay Spew)? I guess it's possible she planned to wait in line (there was always a line at that time of night) and once they got close to getting in, make her excuses and bail for her rendezvous. The problem I have with this is even if she didn't tell her friends they would have seen him talking to her. He would have come up on Macro's radar. I'm also quite confident our guy doesn't meet his victims in bars on the night of the murders.

She may have been seeing someone and had a pre-arranged meeting. I believe if this was true, a) Macro would have found out through phone records, and b) her friend in the CIA doco wouldn't have been so sure JR "just wanted to meet someone".

Could have she gone to another club? Subiaco maybe, which is closer to home. But she would have got a lift home and then got a taxi from Shenton Park.


I wonder what her friends thought she was doing? Conti closing, didn't like Club, could have stayed in the line at Club, decided to stay out. Surely her friends were asking themselves what JR's options were?

 

[perthite]

RAC vehicles of this era were yellow Hilux's, I'm assuming custom order. Heavy on the lights and decals.

Have a look at the old RAC website on the wayback machine from 1997. Vehicles can be seen on the front page.

I don't think anyone would be racing to jump in one of these cars given some of the 'mechanics' they had working for them.

 

[Criminalmimes]

I have never read anything about entomology and this case. Is that on BF?

My bad, entomology. It was on the first thread here, regarding how time of death could be pinpointed via insects. Another member mentioned ants on the jugular. The argument was about whether it would be accurate enough to pinpoint a 6 hour window for TOD after several weeks in the elements.


RE: RAC. It's just something that stuck in my memory, I had a friend who's father worked for the RAC and I remember her telling me that the police were interviewing some of his coworkers. This would have been in the very early 2000s. May be nothing but figured I'd run it past the brains trust here

 

[bessie]

I have never read anything about entomology and this case. Is that on BF?

(rsbm)

I believe it started with my post here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11869738

 

[bessie]

My bad, entomology. It was on the first thread here, regarding how time of death could be pinpointed via insects. Another member mentioned ants on the jugular. The argument was about whether it would be accurate enough to pinpoint a 6 hour window for TOD after several weeks in the elements.

(rsbm)

Ants mentioned in this post:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11867884

 

[billywhizz]

(rsbm)

Ants mentioned in this post:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11867884

Bessie could you please explain what the acronym "rsbm" means? Thanks

 

[Bartholemeus]

Obviously it's Removing Subsoil Before Mining.

 

[bessie]

Bessie could you please explain what the acronym "rsbm" means? Thanks

"respectfully snipped by me"

Websleuths Lingo

 

[Sutton]

On the other thread it was discussed about how police deduced the girls (or at the very least CG) died the same night as their abduction. I saw quite a lot of talk about etymology - did anyone look at environmental indicators (ie ash from fires)? Or body factors like stomach contents?

My bad, entomology. It was on the first thread here, regarding how time of death could be pinpointed via insects. Another member mentioned ants on the jugular. The argument was about whether it would be accurate enough to pinpoint a 6 hour window for TOD after several weeks in the elements...

RSBM I have to think ent=ant when I spell that word.

(rsbm)

I believe it started with my post here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11869738

Thanks, I see where I missed/forgot about that conversation. JR was missing for 55 days, CG was missing for 19 days. Entomology can reveal many things, but nothing I read indicated it could reveal the time of death to within a few hours, after such an extended time. If it could, we'd be able to tell when almost anyone died.

But I can see determination to within a few days, especially in CG's case. How could anyone know JR was killed that night or two nights later? Unless stomach contents were available, that was a good suggestion. Would stomach contents be available 2-3 weeks after death?

I think they used entomology and experience of how criminals usually operate (I guess it's profiling) to determine this. And maybe stomach contents. Can anyone think of any other way?

 

[Sutton]

Maybe one of the girls was wearing a menstrual pad? You would be able to tell if it was used for 4 hours or 2 days. Would the blood draw extra insect activity? You would only be able to tell if the pad was still intact, not covered with insects.

I've never heard of this being done in another case, but it seems like a detail that you wouldn't announce.

ETA: Medication. What if one of the girls was on medication? Allergy medication, birth control, antibiotics, something that lasts for a known amount of time. Could medical examiner still detect that in the liver or bother tissue?

Bessie, did you mean this in your post? I saw cocaine discussed, but only in that it sped up the insect cycle and increased larvae size.

 

[Sutton]

I have a theory on this;

I think a guy she liked was at Conti and she waited outside hoping that when this guy leaves he'd approach her. He didn't so she left. I think she either got into a cab or car out the front or walked around the corner onto a deserted Gugeri St and got in a car there.

She could have met someone earlier in the night and had a pre-arranged meeting but why did she agree to go to Club (locals refer to CBV as Club, Clubba or Club Bay Spew)? I guess it's possible she planned to wait in line (there was always a line at that time of night) and once they got close to getting in, make her excuses and bail for her rendezvous. The problem I have with this is even if she didn't tell her friends they would have seen him talking to her. He would have come up on Macro's radar. I'm also quite confident our guy doesn't meet his victims in bars on the night of the murders.

She may have been seeing someone and had a pre-arranged meeting. I believe if this was true, a) Macro would have found out through phone records, and b) her friend in the CIA doco wouldn't have been so sure JR "just wanted to meet someone".

Could have she gone to another club? Subiaco maybe, which is closer to home. But she would have got a lift home and then got a taxi from Shenton Park.


I wonder what her friends thought she was doing? Conti closing, didn't like Club, could have stayed in the line at Club, decided to stay out. Surely her friends were asking themselves what JR's options were?

JR probably did like someone she saw at the pub and was hoping to see him again. Probably unrelated. It would be very risky for the CSK to meet his victims while he was hanging out at a bar.

A prearranged meeting: The only untraceable scenario I could imagine this working would be if on Wed or Thurs JR saw a guy she'd 'known' in the past, and mentioned she was going to Conti that weekend. Maybe he says, yeah, I might go out. She doesn't mention it to her friends bc she doesn't want to look so 'hopeful.' But JR wants to see him and is going to hang around, just in case. Then, he walks up, she is thrilled, it's MM!

But I don't think this is the case bc I don't think the CSK would take the risk. Also, I think it likely the abduction was similar for all three girls.

That's a great question--what did her friends think?? JR is going to stand by the post? She is going back to CBV to wait in line alone, to a club she doesn't like?

I think you were right when you said she liked someone at Conti and her friend Linda knew what was going on. Linda said JR wanted to meet someone special. Linda wouldn't want to say make JR look desperate, especially if she knew it was unrelated. She wouldn't say, "JR was trying to hook up with the guy playing darts--she'd been eyeing him all night!"

 

[Mel 1303]

I just watched the CIA show again. Can someone who knows the area clarify a few things for me? In the reenactment, JR and her friends are walking towards a taxi rank. Jane turns around and goes back. The friends look to be getting into a cab that is at a rank. Is there a rank there, or was that a bit of poetic licence for the sake of tv? Jane turns back, and when her friends pull up in the taxi to make sure she hasnt changed her mind, she is leaning against a pole. Is this the same pole that she is next to in the CCTV? If JR is waiting for a taxi, why would you wait on the footpath where there is not a rank (you can see the paint on the road, indicating that she is waiting at a disabled car park space) if there is a rank just around the corner?

 

[Bartholemeus]

The video appears to be shot on location and there used to be a cab rank right where they walk - as in across the road from Conti and outside the train station. You can see them walk past Conti and you can see the post office in the back ground. The shot of the station looks a bit iffy but can only assume that was where it was filmed.

Yes - that's the actual pole.

The cab rank was straight across Gugeri St (Goodge-err-ee) from Conti. 20m away. The only assumption we can make is she wasn't initially waiting for a cab. Her friend says she thought she just wanted to meet someone (as in find a boyfriend). That's most likely why she was standing out the front. Hoping she would be approached buy a guy - most likely someone she saw or met earlier.

Also, at that time of night there are two places open in Claremont - Conti and Club. Taxi's don't always go to the rank, they sometimes just drive past Conti and Club to see if anyone is waiting for a taxi.

 

[Mel 1303]

The video appears to be shot on location and there used to be a cab rank right where they walk - as in across the road from Conti and outside the train station. You can see them walk past Conti and you can see the post office in the back ground. The shot of the station looks a bit iffy but can only assume that was where it was filmed.

Yes - that's the actual pole.

The cab rank was straight across Gugeri St (Goodge-err-ee) from Conti. 20m away. The only assumption we can make is she wasn't initially waiting for a cab. Her friend says she thought she just wanted to meet someone (as in find a boyfriend). That's most likely why she was standing out the front. Hoping she would be approached buy a guy - most likely someone she saw or met earlier.

Also, at that time of night there are two places open in Claremont - Conti and Club. Taxi's don't always go to the rank, they sometimes just drive past Conti and Club to see if anyone is waiting for a taxi.

Thank you.

So she waited there for a while after her friends left. Looking up and down the road- I wonder if she was actually looking up and down the road, or if she wanted to be looking like she was there for a reason when someone came out of the pub.

She left (one way or another) within a few minutes of seeing MM. Which makes me wonder if that is who she was waiting for- he said hi, kept going, so she feels disappointed and hails the next cab. However he didnt look like he was coming out of the pub- he looks like he was walking past- pretty risky to wait outside one pub in the hope that this man will walk past on his way home from somewhere else. It would seem more likely that she was waiting to see someone who was inside.

 

[Sutton]

Thank you.

So she waited there for a while after her friends left. Looking up and down the road- I wonder if she was actually looking up and down the road, or if she wanted to be looking like she was there for a reason when someone came out of the pub.

She left (one way or another) within a few minutes of seeing MM. Which makes me wonder if that is who she was waiting for- he said hi, kept going, so she feels disappointed and hails the next cab. However he didnt look like he was coming out of the pub- he looks like he was walking past- pretty risky to wait outside one pub in the hope that this man will walk past on his way home from somewhere else. It would seem more likely that she was waiting to see someone who was inside.

That's kind of what it looked like to me when I watched the video--JR wanted to look like she had a reason to be there, not like she was just waiting for someone to leave the pub. Her reaction to MM also could have been a bit of an act or overreaction, just to look like other guys were interested in her. But I am wishy-washy on her actions that night.