Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #3

[MyLeftFoot]

1. From BC Dec 5 The Post; . "The man who terrorised the western suburbs in the mid- 1990s drove a white mid-1990s Holden Commodore VS Series 1, most likely a station wagon"

Anyone know what "most likely" is based on? Were more station wagons manufactured than sedans? Were there more station wagon sales in WA because they had a big fleet order?

We don't even know if this is true either.* There's a reasonable case that it's strategic misinformation


2. As above. No idea.

3. There were 3 dudes. No idea how reliable they are and no idea how many of them saw it. There's a person on BF claiming to be one of the 3 bus stop witnesses but upon a quick investigation I determined they are full of it.

4. The witnesses or the girls? No idea.

5. Hard to say. Did all Telstra vehicles have ladders on them? Maybe some were used as manager's cars and no ladder?

6. I have seen people mention that one of them was a car nut and was sure it was a Holden. Can anyone actually confirm this?

7. Not to my knowledge

8. CG was wearing black pants with a black blouse that had long white sleeves. I'd say she was visible but if anyone lives locally they should go down there at night with a friend and one stand at the HJ's bus top and one at the CC bus stop and check visibility. There's a slight rise in gradient half way between. A very subtle hill if you like. But pretty sure there's a direct LOS.

*There's a reasonable case that it's strategic misinformation
A very, very strong case for that IMO!

4. The witnesses

5. Don't know

6. Car nut or not..they were P*ssed, probably more interested in their HJ's burgers and being human, could easily be mistaken.

8a. Thought CG was wearing a skirt, had on a long sleeve white blouse with a long sleeve black jacket..but I could be wrong.

8b. That would be a good experiment but it would be good to know what street lighting was in place in 1997. I suspect probably less than today.

 

[aim2solve]

At a press conference on Thursday, Major Crime detective superintendent Jeff Byleveld said it was not clear whether or not the wagon was a taxi, and said witness accounts of it could not be confirmed.

But at least one of the young men is positive it was a white Holden station wagon without taxi markings.

It is a mark of honour among many young men to instantly distinguish Holdens from their similar-looking rival Fords.

Bret Christian (2008) Murder suspect drove holden wagon. PostNewspapers. 09/02/2008

 

[Bartholemeus]

8a. Thought CG was wearing a skirt, had on a long sleeve white blouse with a long sleeve black jacket..but I could be wrong.

I had that the wrong way around. White/cream blouse with long black sleeves. Skirt or pants, they were back.

 

[J35]

1. 95 acclaim
2. 96 acclaim (VS II?)
3. 95 berlina
4. 95 Executive wagon (VS I)
5. 96 Executive sedan (VS 2 - same as wagon)

 

[J35]

96 Executive with VS I style trim.
Now, is this colour aberration from the camera or is there actual colour in the 'pattern'
That being pastel colours of blue, green, purple? etc --- or is the pattern silver and just reflecting the light into its colour spectrum?
Same could be said for the VSII trim....

 

[Mel 1303]

Holden have specific colour codes, and trim codes. The paint colours and trim colours were installed in cars in specific combinations.

I am completely out of my league with this car thing, and I cant find the specific colour and trim codes for the VS series 1. Apparently I need to go to an auto barn or somewhere similar and look in one of the manuals from the time. Next time I am in a town big enough to have an autobarn I will go and have a look.

These sites are where I am up to:
http://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/holden_identification.php
http://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/holden_identification.php

I think the reason that there is an assumption that the vehicle was a station wagon was not only that the witness statement called it a station wagon (in CGs case), but also because of the fibers found with JR.
The fibres were in such quantities
that they could not have
been transferred by sitting
normally in a car.
The particular seat trim fabric
was used only on the Series 1
Holden VS, launched in April
1995. The fabric was changed
for the Series 2.
http://postnewspapers.com.au/editions/20151205/pdf/paper.pdf
I believe it was the Berlina who had the fabric change- will edit post to add link as soon as I can find it. The post quote says that the fibres were in quantities not normally found from sitting in a car. So she was not sitting on the seat when the fibres transfered- maybe lying in the back of the wagon? That was what I thought when I read the article.

I dont know anything about the reliablity of the witness. If I witnessed a car in the middle of the night, and was asked later to identify it, I would be lucky to remember the colour. My husband, who is a car enthusiast, would be able to tell you the make and model without a problem.

 

[J35]

I believe all Series II models had updated seat trims from what I have read (as exampled above) but I'm not a car person either.

Contrary to my earlier post:
You can get wagons in the Equipe in addition to Berlina, Executive and Acclaim


EDIT 1
from your link:
"A minor cosmetic change would see the side indicator lights replaced with better looking oval shaped units, but the big news with the Series II was the introduction of a supercharged V6, available on the Calais, Statesman and Caprice. The interior was given a mild make-over..."

Edit 2:

The post quote says that the fibres were in quantities not normally found from sitting in a car. So she was not sitting on the seat when the fibres transfered- maybe lying in the back of the wagon? That was what I thought when I read the article. .

So did I, but all the boot carpets look very generic (unlike the seat trims).
Based on what we know, so many things don't make sense in this case.

 

[MyLeftFoot]

1. 95 acclaim
2. 96 acclaim (VS II?)
3. 95 berlina
4. 95 Executive wagon (VS I)
5. 96 Executive sedan (VS 2 - same as wagon)

Yep..That's what I got too J35

 

[MyLeftFoot]

Based on what we know, so many things don't make sense in this case.
I agree and I smell a rat!

Question for you J35
My understanding of DNA testing is that it currently takes approximately 48 hours to return a result..but is that true for Australian testing? ie Are we up to date with the rest of the world yet?

 

[billywhizz]

1. From BC Dec 5 The Post; . "The man who terrorised the western suburbs in the mid- 1990s drove a white mid-1990s Holden Commodore VS Series 1, most likely a station wagon"

Anyone know what "most likely" is based on?

Why is the "white" colour the only definite? I think that is stranger.

 

[enzeder]

*There's a reasonable case that it's strategic misinformation
A very, very strong case for that IMO!

4. The witnesses

5. Don't know

6. Car nut or not..they were P*ssed, probably more interested in their HJ's burgers and being human, could easily be mistaken.

8a. Thought CG was wearing a skirt, had on a long sleeve white blouse with a long sleeve black jacket..but I could be wrong.

8b. That would be a good experiment but it would be good to know what street lighting was in place in 1997. I suspect probably less than today.

BBM ^ Ciara Glennon: CIA reenactment shows white top with short sleeves, short black skirt and black jacket.

Likewise, CG reenactment in the short video at below link.

Police release serial killer surveillance video
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2008/s2349494.htm

Screen shots: Crime Investigation Australia video.

 

[J35]

Question for you J35
My understanding of DNA testing is that it currently takes approximately 48 hours to return a result..but is that true for Australian testing? ie Are we up to date with the rest of the world yet?

Yes it is.

"PathWest undertakes to deliver results within 48 hours, depending on the nature of the test being conducted, and often provides results overnight."

Police 'triage' policy designates priority to certain evidence. E.g. Turnaround for a break in could be 2 weeks depending on the backlog and priority.
Whether such a priority (48hrs) is placed on DNA tests of past/present VS Commodore owners is another question.

From https://audit.wa.gov.au/reports-and...mand-is-putting-pressure-on-turnaround-times/

 

[J35]

Why is the "white" colour the only definite? I think that is stranger.

Most likely because of witness testimony. I thought I read on here that the fibres were thought to be specific to the white station wagon due to the unique trim, but having looked at a fair few photos I disagree- sedans +wagons of different colours have (from images I've seen) the same trim as white station wagons in the same series.

Enzeder, the CSI doco is also in conflict with the period news article description of CG (I think) that papertrail posted.. I think paper tail even question the accuracy--- it's many pages back though

 

[enzeder]

Thanks J35 - I must have missed that article (or have forgotten the details) - If I ever come across the article I'll post the link to it.

 

[JMC44]

I think it is more likely than not that the CSK was involved in at least one, but maybe two or all, of the following: the attack that occurred on New Year's Day in 1994, where a man dragged a woman from her car after she left the Club Bayview and attempted to rape her, before she fought back and escaped; the attack that was recently reported in the Post where a woman was kidnapped in a car park, later escaped, but was pursued by her attacker again; and the assault in a lane behind Club Bayview where, among other things, a man bashed a woman's head against a wall half a dozen times.

The CSK has got to be a local. He has to have attended, at least not infrequently, these nightspots. If he hovered around these areas, without ever attending these places and mixing in, I think he would have been noticed, or people would have reported someone hovering around as odd.

I think a table of all the crimes of attempted or actual assault and kidnapping, and even burglary, from 1992/3 till 1996 would be useful.

My four questions:

1. What do people imagine the CSK to have been like in the mid-90s? Sociable, charismatic, popular, but deep-down evil? Or quiet, innocuous, a loner, who was never noticed, never missed? Or a rough, violent, aggressive type whom people were afraid of, but a person whom people nevertheless didn't and don't suspect could have committed these murders?

2. Do people think the CSK went to these nightspots in Claremont to not infrequently socialise/party? And if so, did he go with friends?

3. Are there any details about suspects of any of the crimes that I have listed above?

4. Assuming the CSK committed some of the crimes I listed above, and the Karrakatta rape, and the murders, how has no one (family, friends, even colleagues), not noticed even once that the person they know has been doing this stuff. Is the CSK so totally divorced from everyone, so innocuous, so hidden? Surely there are people who must suspect someone (because they were missing on a night of one of the murders or something, and acted oddly)?

 

[delbertGrady]

I think it is more likely than not that the CSK was involved in at least one, but maybe two or all, of the following: the attack that occurred on New Year's Day in 1994, where a man dragged a woman from her car after she left the Club Bayview and attempted to rape her, before she fought back and escaped; the attack that was recently reported in the Post where a woman was kidnapped in a car park, later escaped, but was pursued by her attacker again; and the assault in a lane behind Club Bayview where, among other things, a man bashed a woman's head against a wall half a dozen times.

The CSK has got to be a local. He has to have attended, at least not infrequently, these nightspots. If he hovered around these areas, without ever attending these places and mixing in, I think he would have been noticed, or people would have reported someone hovering around as odd.

I think a table of all the crimes of attempted or actual assault and kidnapping, and even burglary, from 1992/3 till 1996 would be useful.

My four questions:

1. What do people imagine the CSK to have been like in the mid-90s? Sociable, charismatic, popular, but deep-down evil? Or quiet, innocuous, a loner, who was never noticed, never missed? Or a rough, violent, aggressive type whom people were afraid of, but a person whom people nevertheless didn't and don't suspect could have committed these murders?

2. Do people think the CSK went to these nightspots in Claremont to not infrequently socialise/party? And if so, did he go with friends?

3. Are there any details about suspects of any of the crimes that I have listed above?

4. Assuming the CSK committed some of the crimes I listed above, and the Karrakatta rape, and the murders, how has no one (family, friends, even colleagues), not noticed even once that the person they know has been doing this stuff. Is the CSK so totally divorced from everyone, so innocuous, so hidden? Surely there are people who must suspect someone (because they were missing on a night of one of the murders or something, and acted oddly)?

good questions.

1. I think sociable, charismatic, popular but deep down evil.

2. I think he would have gone to Claremont nightspots on other occasions, maybe In his 20's he went there often with friends, but in 95-97 he was maybe 30+(My guess). I imagine him going to the Claremont nightspots alone, being recognised and associated with a group would have made it more likely for someone to catch him.

3. Not that I know of. Now you've made me think about that.. I think it is odd that there doesn't seem to be a physical description of the perpetrator for any of the assaults from around that time and area, someone had to have seen him, the woman who faught him off, any of the others, I haven't read any hair colour, height, build, skin colour, age, clothing descriptions. Someone had to have seen him, why would no identikit or description be released?

4. If the CSK is, like I said in q 1. Charismatic, popular, then I just don't think anyone that knew him would think about or notice what they were doing that night, and wether they were out all night or acting differently.
Other than a spouse or girlfriend, who notices what people in their lives are doing every night?

Does anyone know, what was the kind of age range that you would normally expect in the Claremont venues? Bart?
I only went out in Claremont a few times, but people seemed to be about my age which was probably around 20.
would a 35 year old on his own look out of place?

 

[aim2solve]

The licenced establishment which is located on ST QUENTIN was CLUB BAY VIEW in 1995. In 1999, it split into CLUB BAY VIEW and THE AVENUE. The south side entrance became the main entrance for club bay view. The St Quentin's entrance became THE AVENUE entrance.

Prof. David Canter has deduced that serial killers who abduct from a concentrated area are more often marauders [Predators who travel from other home locations but that have a strong significant association with the abduction area]. What sort of professionals would work in Claremont but live a distance of 5 to 10 Kilometers away?

 

[Deleted member 153673]

good questions.



1. I think sociable, charismatic, popular but deep down evil.

2. I think he would have gone to Claremont nightspots on other occasions, maybe In his 20's he went there often with friends, but in 95-97 he was maybe 30+(My guess). I imagine him going to the Claremont nightspots alone, being recognised and associated with a group would have made it more likely for someone to catch him.

3. Not that I know of. Now you've made me think about that.. I think it is odd that there doesn't seem to be a physical description of the perpetrator for any of the assaults from around that time and area, someone had to have seen him, the woman who faught him off, any of the others, I haven't read any hair colour, height, build, skin colour, age, clothing descriptions. Someone had to have seen him, why would no identikit or description be released?

4. If the CSK is, like I said in q 1. Charismatic, popular, then I just don't think anyone that knew him would think about or notice what they were doing that night, and wether they were out all night or acting differently.
Other than a spouse or girlfriend, who notices what people in their lives are doing every night?

Does anyone know, what was the kind of age range that you would normally expect in the Claremont venues? Bart?
I only went out in Claremont a few times, but people seemed to be about my age which was probably around 20.
would a 35 year old on his own look out of place?

Claremont was always a mix of 20s and 30s from memory. I know the nightclub had a lot of student nights and promotions and a girl I know told me it was full of creepers in their 30s looking to pick up uni chicks. I walked past the hotel recently and saw university aged people spilling out onto the footpath onto the cafe areas and normal 30-something business types, well dressed, etc. 35 wouldn't be out of place at all in my opinion.

 

[Deleted member 153673]

As far as going out to venues alone , that may have drawn attention if he was the quiet, loner type OR may have worked in his favour if he was the outgoing charismatic type eg introduce himself to a group of people or a couple of girls and start a conversation, make up some story about your friends being late or whatever to make yourself seem legit. A good looking bloke with charisma would be able to pull it off and not raise alarm bells, especially around people who are drinking.

There are so many unknowns in this case. We could be talking about a visiting academic or professional who murdered a handful of women and went back overseas. Someone from interstate who committed the murders and went back over east. Maybe he became a POI and stopped due to the spotlight or even someone who died. Or like BTK, became dormant for years, resurfacing later. Our man could be a productive member of society right now or In prison for something else, or he could be dead or overseas. He may have started with lesser crimes (peeping, exposing himself or burglary) and progressed to physical assaults. He may have been a family man who used prostitutes and developed a hatred of women. Obsessed with rape and control fantasies until he was compelled to go out and try to enact it. Sadly Once he became more confident, he might have progressed to murder. Or he may have attacked SS on impulse and not meant to go as far as he did. He could be a tradie with a van or FIFO worker, an interstate truck driver, someone with a military background or even a lonely loser who topped himself later out of guilt. That's what's so frustrating about the way WAPOL mis-handled the investigation in the first few years. We've got so little to go on. There's no evidence at all for a ritual or a process he goes through (went through) or what his motivations were (sex, control, revenge, religious delusions etc). There's confusion over whether there was a sexual element or how the poor girls were treated before death. It's horrible and its baffling.

 

[Bartholemeus]

I think a table of all the crimes of attempted or actual assault and kidnapping, and even burglary, from 1992/3 till 1996 would be useful.

I would go from 1985 on the grounds the CSK could have been as young as 25 and might have started burglary as a teen.

My four questions:

1. What do people imagine the CSK to have been like in the mid-90s? Sociable, charismatic, popular, but deep-down evil? Or quiet, innocuous, a loner, who was never noticed, never missed? Or a rough, violent, aggressive type whom people were afraid of, but a person whom people nevertheless didn't and don't suspect could have committed these murders?

My best guess is local man, 25-45, professional job and Mr Normal. Knows how to blend, socialise andmake friends. Potentially could always be on the periphery of social groups. Internally evil but learnt how to get by and seemingly fit in.

My next best guess is good looking annd charming but inherently evil.

After that is the complete loner type (i.e. LW)

Another considetation is guys who went to one of the local private schools but didnt live locally and never truly fit in and garbor some sort of resentment.

2. Do people think the CSK went to these nightspots in Claremont to not infrequently socialise/party? And if so, did he go with friends?

most likely and most likely with friends. Hard to fit in if solo unless they're the good look charismatic type- but these guys usually have friends.

3. Are there any details about suspects of any of the crimes that I have listed above?

Not to my knowledge

4. Assuming the CSK committed some of the crimes I listed above, and the Karrakatta rape, and the murders, how has no one (family, friends, even colleagues), not noticed even once that the person they know has been doing this stuff. Is the CSK so totally divorced from everyone, so innocuous, so hidden? Surely there are people who must suspect someone (because they were missing on a night of one of the murders or something, and acted oddly)?

because csk is psychopath who lacks empathy.