Clever or Lucky?

[ElleElle]

I think the R's were very lucky. I always wondered what would have been different if this did not take place the night of Christmas Day.

 

[TeaTime]

They were clever and manipulated every lapse in judgment and common sense by LE to their advantage. They were plotting the whole time the house was filled with friends and cops. The lies that should not need to be started with reading to JBR before bed or not, the red turtleneck, the pajamas and underwear story, the walking up the stairs versus being carried, unable to pin down the time they left a party or arrived home or anything that happened once they pulled away from the Stine house.

 

[Springrain]

I don't think they were clever in the least. I think they got lucky to have the case get botched.

 

[andreww]

I don't think they were clever in the least. I think they got lucky to have the case get botched.

I wouldn't say they were either clever or lucky. Wouldn't say the case was botched either. The Ramseys had money and social standing, and were treated differently than anybody else would have been. They hired lawyers that were aggressive, pressuring potential witnesses, the media, and even the DA. BPD worked hard to solve the case but they were handcuffed by their superiors. John and Patsy should have been locked up from day one on temporary holds when they refused to cooperate, and I'm sure they would have broken. But the order had already come from Alex Hunter to "go easy on them". What else could they do?


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[LianneGates]

I think a lot of the confusion on what took place that night and what didn't was down to when they gave the information. It was months after the murder and PR was highly medicated throughout. A lot of what they reported may have been inconsistent due to the length of time that went by before they had to recall it all.

 

[andreww]

I think a lot of the confusion on what took place that night and what didn't was down to when they gave the information. It was months after the murder and PR was highly medicated throughout. A lot of what they reported may have been inconsistent due to the length of time that went by before they had to recall it all.

Not quite that simple. Yes the first formal interviews took place four months after the murder, but the Ramsey's were also provided with copies of their previous statements as a condition of their participation. So ask yourself why, when they had a written account of what they said that morning, their stories would change? Ask yourself why they would wait more than four months to even give a statement?

 

[BBB167893]

I think a lot of the confusion on what took place that night and what didn't was down to when they gave the information. It was months after the murder and PR was highly medicated throughout. A lot of what they reported may have been inconsistent due to the length of time that went by before they had to recall it all.

I could believe that if the inconsistencies stopped there.

 

[sbaughman]

Not quite that simple. Yes the first formal interviews took place four months after the murder, but the Ramsey's were also provided with copies of their previous statements as a condition of their participation. So ask yourself why, when they had a written account of what they said that morning, their stories would change? Ask yourself why they would wait more than four months to even give a statement?

They would wait four months to give a formal statement because they were following the advice of their attorneys. BPD talked to them numerous times at their home on the 26th. If they wanted formal statements, they should have asked the Ramsey's to come in and give formal statements immediately after sealing off their home as a crime scene. At the very least, they could have done interviews with them at the Fernie's house, prior to the lawyers being involved, had the Ramsey's not wanted to go in for formal interviews, since by all accounts, PR was an emotional wreck and probably not in the condition to give much of a formal interview anyway.

Or, better yet, BPD could have treated the entire house as a crime scene immediately, and moved everyone except JR from the home (since he'd have to handle the ransom call) rather than let a dozen or so civilians and various members of LE wander around contaminating the crime scene. Separating JR and PR would have been the best way to find inconsistencies in their accounts, but more importantly, it would have prevented the most egregious error of the day, and that was allowing JR and FW to wander the basement together and separately at least 2 or 3 times.

Because BPD had no control of the crime scene and actually suggested FW and JR search the house, we have no idea how JBR's body actually looked upon initial discovery, the duct tape was handled by JR and FW, the body was handled by JR and then moved again by LA, (not to mention FW had reported checking to see if she was cold in the basement upon discovery) then covered with a blanket and a sweatshirt. Who knows how much contact PR had with the body when she was screaming for Jesus to raise her from the dead. All that contamination could have been prevented had BPD followed basic protocol.

I firmly believe that all of the officers at BPD acted with the best of intentions that morning, and I understand they were understaffed because of the holidays, but they didn't just make mistakes, they made huge mistakes. The case could very well be in a very different place had they followed correct procedure on the 26th. It's a lot harder to play catch up when you've already mishandled and called into question nearly all of the usable evidence. JMO


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[andreww]

They would wait four months to give a formal statement because they were following the advice of their attorneys. BPD talked to them numerous times at their home on the 26th. If they wanted formal statements, they should have asked the Ramsey's to come in and give formal statements immediately after sealing off their home as a crime scene. At the very least, they could have done interviews with them at the Fernie's house, prior to the lawyers being involved, had the Ramsey's not wanted to go in for formal interviews, since by all accounts, PR was an emotional wreck and probably not in the condition to give much of a formal interview anyway.

Or, better yet, BPD could have treated the entire house as a crime scene immediately, and moved everyone except JR from the home (since he'd have to handle the ransom call) rather than let a dozen or so civilians and various members of LE wander around contaminating the crime scene. Separating JR and PR would have been the best way to find inconsistencies in their accounts, but more importantly, it would have prevented the most egregious error of the day, and that was allowing JR and FW to wander the basement together and separately at least 2 or 3 times.

Because BPD had no control of the crime scene and actually suggested FW and JR search the house, we have no idea how JBR's body actually looked upon initial discovery, the duct tape was handled by JR and FW, the body was handled by JR and then moved again by LA, (not to mention FW had reported checking to see if she was cold in the basement upon discovery) then covered with a blanket and a sweatshirt. Who knows how much contact PR had with the body when she was screaming for Jesus to raise her from the dead. All that contamination could have been prevented had BPD followed basic protocol.

I firmly believe that all of the officers at BPD acted with the best of intentions that morning, and I understand they were understaffed because of the holidays, but they didn't just make mistakes, they made huge mistakes. The case could very well be in a very different place had they followed correct procedure on the 26th. It's a lot harder to play catch up when you've already mishandled and called into question nearly all of the usable evidence. JMO


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Lawyers? Don't kid yourself, the Ramseys had lawyered up before they left the house. They never had any intention of cooperating with BPD. Patsy says she was too grief stricken for an interview yet she didn't have a problem marching down to the police station to put in a good word for Pasta Jay after he was arrested for assault.

Don't believe a word those people say, they played the system like a fiddle.


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[kanzz]

They would wait four months to give a formal statement because they were following the advice of their attorneys. BPD talked to them numerous times at their home on the 26th. If they wanted formal statements, they should have asked the Ramsey's to come in and give formal statements immediately after sealing off their home as a crime scene. At the very least, they could have done interviews with them at the Fernie's house, prior to the lawyers being involved, had the Ramsey's not wanted to go in for formal interviews, since by all accounts, PR was an emotional wreck and probably not in the condition to give much of a formal interview anyway.

Or, better yet, BPD could have treated the entire house as a crime scene immediately, and moved everyone except JR from the home (since he'd have to handle the ransom call) rather than let a dozen or so civilians and various members of LE wander around contaminating the crime scene. Separating JR and PR would have been the best way to find inconsistencies in their accounts, but more importantly, it would have prevented the most egregious error of the day, and that was allowing JR and FW to wander the basement together and separately at least 2 or 3 times.

Because BPD had no control of the crime scene and actually suggested FW and JR search the house, we have no idea how JBR's body actually looked upon initial discovery, the duct tape was handled by JR and FW, the body was handled by JR and then moved again by LA, (not to mention FW had reported checking to see if she was cold in the basement upon discovery) then covered with a blanket and a sweatshirt. Who knows how much contact PR had with the body when she was screaming for Jesus to raise her from the dead. All that contamination could have been prevented had BPD followed basic protocol.

I firmly believe that all of the officers at BPD acted with the best of intentions that morning, and I understand they were understaffed because of the holidays, but they didn't just make mistakes, they made huge mistakes. The case could very well be in a very different place had they followed correct procedure on the 26th. It's a lot harder to play catch up when you've already mishandled and called into question nearly all of the usable evidence. JMO


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Every word of this is true.

 

[andreww]

Every word of this is true.

Yes it is, but ask yourself how these mistakes affected the case. Was there any evidence that was destroyed when JB was carried upstairs? When she was covered with a blanket or moved again? Patsy's red fibres are still on the duct tape and Johns shirt fibres are on her groin. The conditions weren't optimal but I still believe that the crime scene was intact and that the case was solvable. The reason why the case was never solved was done to power and money. The Ramsey's had lawyered up before they left their house. Fleet White was contacted within hours of finding the body. The Ramsey's made many excuses for not cooperating, Patsy being a wreck, Because BPD was ransoming the body, because they didn't want to be interviewed in the evening, etc., but it is quite evident that they didn't want to be interviewed. Its also evident that Alex Hunter was doing his best to stifle BPD's pursuit of the Ramsey's. Especially coincidental is the fact that Mike Bynum had once worked for Alex Hunter. The people charged with finding the killer are pals (by association) with the prime suspects.

But its not just the Ramsey's that are given a pass. Pasta Jay gets convicted of assault with a baseball bat and receives probation. He then violates that probation when he is nailed for impaired driving, but nobody makes the connection and he isn't sent to jail, doesn't lose his liquor license or his business loans. Lucky?

Susan Stein impersonates Chief Beckner in emails, but was she ever charged? Nope. Lucky?

I'm sorry, if you or I had done any of these things we'd have been arrested. It seems fairly evident that the Ramsey's and their whole circle of friends played under a whole different set of rules than the rest of us.

 

[UKGuy]

They would wait four months to give a formal statement because they were following the advice of their attorneys. BPD talked to them numerous times at their home on the 26th. If they wanted formal statements, they should have asked the Ramsey's to come in and give formal statements immediately after sealing off their home as a crime scene. At the very least, they could have done interviews with them at the Fernie's house, prior to the lawyers being involved, had the Ramsey's not wanted to go in for formal interviews, since by all accounts, PR was an emotional wreck and probably not in the condition to give much of a formal interview anyway.

Or, better yet, BPD could have treated the entire house as a crime scene immediately, and moved everyone except JR from the home (since he'd have to handle the ransom call) rather than let a dozen or so civilians and various members of LE wander around contaminating the crime scene. Separating JR and PR would have been the best way to find inconsistencies in their accounts, but more importantly, it would have prevented the most egregious error of the day, and that was allowing JR and FW to wander the basement together and separately at least 2 or 3 times.

Because BPD had no control of the crime scene and actually suggested FW and JR search the house, we have no idea how JBR's body actually looked upon initial discovery, the duct tape was handled by JR and FW, the body was handled by JR and then moved again by LA, (not to mention FW had reported checking to see if she was cold in the basement upon discovery) then covered with a blanket and a sweatshirt. Who knows how much contact PR had with the body when she was screaming for Jesus to raise her from the dead. All that contamination could have been prevented had BPD followed basic protocol.

I firmly believe that all of the officers at BPD acted with the best of intentions that morning, and I understand they were understaffed because of the holidays, but they didn't just make mistakes, they made huge mistakes. The case could very well be in a very different place had they followed correct procedure on the 26th. It's a lot harder to play catch up when you've already mishandled and called into question nearly all of the usable evidence. JMO


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sbaughman,
An excuse for the procedural lapses that I read about, in numerous sources was that the police present at the house deferred to the Ramsey's, their money and status?

Consider if untrained, vacation duty staff, were deliberately sent to the Ramsey house.

Steve Thomas' investigative experience lay with drug cases not homicide.

Why would the Ramsey's not be detailed BPD finest investigative officers?

Why did BPD human resources response not match that of the Ramsey's social standing?

is this why Detective Arndt was left in charge, and the later interviews with the parents abound with unanswered questions?

Could it be the Ramsey's phoned a friend that morning and arranged for a lukewarm investigation?

Could the Governor of Colorado State phoned the Chief of BPD requesting a special favor?

Apparently a call was made to the Governor from the R's house that day.

.

 

[sbaughman]

Yes it is, but ask yourself how these mistakes affected the case. Was there any evidence that was destroyed when JB was carried upstairs? When she was covered with a blanket or moved again? Patsy's red fibres are still on the duct tape and Johns shirt fibres are on her groin. The conditions weren't optimal but I still believe that the crime scene was intact and that the case was solvable. The reason why the case was never solved was done to power and money. The Ramsey's had lawyered up before they left their house. Fleet White was contacted within hours of finding the body. The Ramsey's made many excuses for not cooperating, Patsy being a wreck, Because BPD was ransoming the body, because they didn't want to be interviewed in the evening, etc., but it is quite evident that they didn't want to be interviewed. Its also evident that Alex Hunter was doing his best to stifle BPD's pursuit of the Ramsey's. Especially coincidental is the fact that Mike Bynum had once worked for Alex Hunter. The people charged with finding the killer are pals (by association) with the prime suspects.

But its not just the Ramsey's that are given a pass. Pasta Jay gets convicted of assault with a baseball bat and receives probation. He then violates that probation when he is nailed for impaired driving, but nobody makes the connection and he isn't sent to jail, doesn't lose his liquor license or his business loans. Lucky?

Susan Stein impersonates Chief Beckner in emails, but was she ever charged? Nope. Lucky?

I'm sorry, if you or I had done any of these things we'd have been arrested. It seems fairly evident that the Ramsey's and their whole circle of friends played under a whole different set of rules than the rest of us.

Not in Boulder we wouldn't. Thomas devotes much of his book to complaining about the DA's office and how soft on crime Hunter was. They were notorious for pleading down cases, including violent crime. Thomas cites as just one example a case where he was assaulted by a college student during a protest, and she broke his nose. They charged her with a felony, the DA's office approached him and told him not to ruin her life. She ended up getting a misdemeanor.

Did money and power help, absolutely it did but it doesn't change how badly BPD screwed this from the beginning. The crime scene was NOT intact, if it was, JBR's body would have been left untouched, in the basement. These mistakes absolutely affected the case, because fibers can be transferred in completely innocent ways, that's why it's important to leave everything as is and not touch the body. Had that duct tape been touched by no one, PR's fibers on it could have been much more significant, from a legal standpoint.

This is just one of many mistakes LE made, I could mention probably nearly a dozen more that all affect the case if it goes to trial. Money and power helped the Ramsey's the most in that they were able to afford experienced defense attorneys, who would have torn this case to shreds had it ever gone to trial, especially with the DA's office being relatively inexperienced at trial. Hunter wasn't friends with the Ramsey's, he didn't know them prior to this case. He also wasn't involved immediately, he was in Hawaii and out of reach for most of the 26th. Decisions out of the DA's office were handled by Wise and Hofstrom, although IIRC Wise was in contact with Hunter at some point that day. Eller was the first to identify the Ramsey's as wealthy and influential, and according to Mason, Eller had ordered officers at the scene to treat the family as victims, not suspects (per Schillers book).

Mistakes were absolutely made at every level, both the DA's office and BPD could have handled things better. The terrible relationship between the two made an already damaged case about a dozen times worse. This whole case was a mess before it ever really got started, unfortunately.




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[andreww]

sbaughman,
An excuse for the procedural lapses that I read about, in numerous sources was that the police present at the house deferred to the Ramsey's, their money and status?

Consider if untrained, vacation duty staff, were deliberately sent to the Ramsey house.

Steve Thomas' investigative experience lay with drug cases not homicide.

Why would the Ramsey's not be detailed BPD finest investigative officers?

Why did BPD human resources response not match that of the Ramsey's social standing?

is this why Detective Arndt was left in charge, and the later interviews with the parents abound with unanswered questions?

Could it be the Ramsey's phoned a friend that morning and arranged for a lukewarm investigation?

Could the Governor of Colorado State phoned the Chief of BPD requesting a special favor?

Apparently a call was made to the Governor from the R's house that day.

.

I agree with everything you've said. Consider as well that JBs murder was Boulder's first in 1996, why was the case not given to a homicide investigator? Those guys are supposed to be on call 24/7.

But where did you hear that there was a call from the Governor?

 

[sbaughman]

I agree with everything you've said. Consider as well that JBs murder was Boulder's first in 1996, why was the case not given to a homicide investigator? Those guys are supposed to be on call 24/7.

But where did you hear that there was a call from the Governor?

I don't believe BPD had a specified homicide investigator, their structure under Koby was pretty unusual. Worth noting as well that with it being the first homicide of 1996, they wouldn't have much experience investigating homicides anyway. I'd have to go back and look, but Thomas and Schiller discuss the structure of BPD in their books.

Also, Thomas wasn't on scene the first day, so yes, he was not experienced in investigating homicides, but none of the huge mistakes made that first day were his fault.




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[andreww]

I don't believe BPD had a specified homicide investigator, their structure under Koby was pretty unusual. Worth noting as well that with it being the first homicide of 1996, they wouldn't have much experience investigating homicides anyway. I'd have to go back and look, but Thomas and Schiller discuss the structure of BPD in their books.

Also, Thomas wasn't on scene the first day, so yes, he was not experienced in investigating homicides, but none of the huge mistakes made that first day were his fault.




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Was anybody really on site that first day? As I recall, once the body was found, the house was sealed until very late that evening. I think they just got the body out and sealed it up again. Did Thomas come in on the 27th?

 

[kanzz]

I don't believe BPD had a specified homicide investigator, their structure under Koby was pretty unusual. Worth noting as well that with it being the first homicide of 1996, they wouldn't have much experience investigating homicides anyway. I'd have to go back and look, but Thomas and Schiller discuss the structure of BPD in their books.

Also, Thomas wasn't on scene the first day, so yes, he was not experienced in investigating homicides, but none of the huge mistakes made that first day were his fault.

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That's how I remember it, too. There was no homicide unit.

The mistakes made in the crucial first hours of this investigation are what bothers me most. Arndt sending JR on the search was irresponsible at best. Even though both JR and PR would probably not have cooperated with questioning right away, that alone is very telling. Formal questioning of Burke as a possible suspect rather than just a potential witness wasn't even considered. Allowing items to be removed from the crime scene? Nobody does that.

 

[sbaughman]

Was anybody really on site that first day? As I recall, once the body was found, the house was sealed until very late that evening. I think they just got the body out and sealed it up again. Did Thomas come in on the 27th?

Just wanted to mention quickly according to Beckner there was no homicide unit in BPD. Koby, Eller, and Thomas had never worked a homicide, and very few detectives that worked the case had any homicide experience.

You're correct the house was sealed but prior to that numerous officers had been on scene: French, Reichenbach, Ardnt, Whitson, Patterson, Veitch, Weiss, Barklow, and Everett. At some point FBI SA Walker was briefly at the scene, with another FBI agent to offer LE assistance. This was shortly before the crime scene was secured. Mason was with them. Two victim advocates were also there, along with the Fernies, Whites, and the Reverand. At some point, I believe at or around the time of the crime being sealed, deputy DA DeMuth was on the scene as well (probably around the time the search warrant was secured)


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[sbaughman]

That's how I remember it, too. There was no homicide unit.

The mistakes made in the crucial first hours of this investigation are what bothers me most. Arndt sending JR on the search was irresponsible at best. Even though both JR and PR would probably not have cooperated with questioning right away, that alone is very telling. Formal questioning of Burke as a possible suspect rather than just a potential witness wasn't even considered. Allowing items to be removed from the crime scene? Nobody does that.

Wise maintains to this day that he could think of no worse way to botch a crime scene than allowing the father to find the body. I tend to agree with him. It's unfathomable to me why Ardnt was left their by herself, why the civilians were there, and why she would then suggest they walk around the house, which was not yet designated a crime scene in its entirety (another mistake).

If things had to be removed from the house, the Ramsey's needed to provide LE with a list, and LE needed to find the things. They needed to keep their own detailed list for reference (which they did, to some extent). If Patsy's sister needed to help, she needed to be under LE supervision and only instructing LE what needed to be taken, letting LE do the handling of the the items so it could all be formally logged


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[sbaughman]

Also, forgot to mention Thomas became involved on the 28th.


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