Clifford Lane Lawless

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Does anyone think that maybe LE took the church computers because they think that maybe a person who works there or is a member could be something like BTK? The Pastor doesn't necessarily have to be the suspect. I'll really be suprised if he did this, especially now that I see that he really does not have aliases as people had been saying.
 
txsvicki said:
Does anyone think that maybe LE took the church computers because they think that maybe a person who works there or is a member could be something like BTK? The Pastor doesn't necessarily have to be the suspect. I'll really be suprised if he did this, especially now that I see that he really does not have aliases as people had been saying.
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Yeah, it's possible, but the pastor has a connection to the perp at the very least. Could be a family member of his, the roommate, or another congregant.
 
txsvicki said:
Does anyone think that maybe LE took the church computers because they think that maybe a person who works there or is a member could be something like BTK? The Pastor doesn't necessarily have to be the suspect. I'll really be suprised if he did this, especially now that I see that he really does not have aliases as people had been saying.
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Could be. Maybe even F. Williams. Looks like he has keys to the church.

Here's a thread on him.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82693
 
KR2tonenow said:
I think the is connected to the church, that is why the FBI were all over it Tuesday. Not sure exactly who, but I did read on the thread yesterday that this congregation is known for saving their members even though they may be RSO's and that they feel they can solve the problems within the community without intervention from police. Based on one members opinions from an incident in the past.
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I may be confused, but I thought someone else said it was a different church "known" for this, not Clover Road??
 
chicagofa13 said:
I may be confused, but I thought someone else said it was a different church "known" for this, not Clover Road??
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You're right. Clover Road was not associated with that particular sub-denomination. It's back on Thread #7 or #8.
 
I know LE has not come right out and cleared anyone.
The Lawless mobile home has been searched more than once, the phones and computer have been confiscated via search warrant, Lawless was questioned most of the night after Sandra's body was found, and his church searched. Why the heavy concentration on L. Lawless if he is not a viable suspect?

My late stepfather was a Methodist minister and stayed at a rather large Methodist church for approximately 15 years. We only moved twice while I was growing up.

I find it very odd that Lawless was 'called' to the ministry on April 6th, 1971, and was ordained on August 20, 1971. That is a period of just over 4 months. There is no way you can be ordained in that length of Theology study. I have spent a couple of hours looking up the Alisal Baptist Institute of Salinas and the Alisal Baptist Institute Theological Seminary. There is no accreditation anywhere to be found. There is no board of directors, and nothing on file at all for tax exempt status. IMO, and only IMO, it did not exist except on paper. I also do not see how L. Lawless father in law could ordain him.

All of the other pastors at Grace Missionary Church were there for several years, yet L. Lawless was the pastor for only 1 year. I just wonder about that.

Unlike some, I do find that so many alias's exist of this man. IMO, that is unusual for a minister. Why the variations? Is he really an ordained minister?

IMO, after LE looked at this man's computer and phones, then talked with him so many hours just after Sandra's body was found, IF he can be cleared LE certainly should have done so by now. IMO, there certainly must be something about him that doesn't sit well with LE.

Sorry for the long post.
 
I agree with everything in your post LALAW, except for the aliases. His full name is Clifford Lane Lawless. Unless you are seeing something I haven't seen, it is not uncommon for names to appear wonky in peoplesearch databases. My own listing is wonky because of my marriage and I used to go by my middle name. I also changed my given first name legally because I hate it. I am also listed as living with my ex-husband and his wife! He is listed as living with me at a former address from years ago. He is listed as having my surname for a middle name. One of my children is listed as being 7-8 years older than they are.

What I am interested in is:
Did Lane Lawless use any aliases before he was saved, where did he grow up, what was he doing, why doesn't his bio cover his life prior to being saved? Most people who repent discuss a bit about their backgrounds and how they made mistakes and were saved. He hasn't done that. He doesn't have to, but it's unusual.

It's hinky. (first time I've used that WS word!)
 
This is pretty much how I feel since I actually stopped and took a look at the other names. LOL They are all variances of his current name, and some certainly look like typos. My husband's and my mail - especially junk mail - arrives with the same variances and typos, and we've never used names that weren't our own except online - yeah, the secret's out I'm not really Nora Charles, no one could ever be except Myrna Loy. :)

My hinky meter rises, like yours, when it comes to the time period before his marriage. I also have another issue that makes me suspicious...Most Christians, especially pastors, desire their children to marry into the same faith, and a person who is strong and mature in his faith (that tends to hold true for other religions as well). It sounds like Lawless was a VERY new Christian since he got baptized on his wedding day (super weird - MOO!!!). But here's the thing...I wonder why a pastor performed the marriage ceremony between his daughter and a very new member of his faith. That just seems strange to me. Here's a guy who hasn't even bothered to get baptized before, yet all the Baptist churches I've heard of teach that is the first thing you do as a Christian to demonstrate being born again. They are called "Baptist" ya know? LOL It just seems weird to me that he wouldn't want to wait to see what kind of Christian this guy turned into before marrying him off to his own daughter.

SPECULATION ALERT/DON'T QUOTE AS FACT: This would especially be true if this guy had a "past" of any kind, which seems a possibility since we can't find anything about him before the marriage. MOO!!!!

Am I the only one who finds it strange that the father who was a pastor was quick to marry off his daughter to a very new Christian? TIA!


RhythmicSun said:
I agree with everything in your post LALAW, except for the aliases. His full name is Clifford Lane Lawless. Unless you are seeing something I haven't seen, it is not uncommon for names to appear wonky in peoplesearch databases. My own listing is wonky because of my marriage and I used to go by my middle name. I also changed my given first name legally because I hate it. I am also listed as living with my ex-husband and his wife! He is listed as living with me at a former address from years ago. He is listed as having my surname for a middle name. One of my children is listed as being 7-8 years older than they are.

What I am interested in is:
Did Lane Lawless use any aliases before he was saved, where did he grow up, what was he doing, why doesn't his bio cover his life prior to being saved? Most people who repent discuss a bit about their backgrounds and how they made mistakes and were saved. He hasn't done that. He doesn't have to, but it's unusual.

It's hinky. (first time I've used that WS word!)
Click to expand...
 
Nora, does this mean you don't even have a cute little dog called Asta??
 
FishingFunnyFrog said:
She logged on last night around 9:30 or so and changed her mood to Furious and her status to: "10,000 people will claim to be there but in reality only a few will have been present". I don't know what that means but I'm sure they're having a really hard time with this case.
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Hi FFF, I am at a total loss as to what or who you are referring to here :confused: xox Ta
 
scandi said:
Hi FFF, I am at a total loss as to what or who you are referring to here :confused: xox Ta
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Someone posted this link a while back as being a Lawless relative...granddaughter I believe (but don't quote me on that).
 
Recovering-Lurker said:
Did you all see this?

http://eyesforlies.blogspot.com/2009/04/pastor-lane-lawless-video.html

This is what we were talking about yesterday.
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THANK YOU for this!
The strangest thing about this video to me is that Pastor Lawless has said that his wife, Connie, has heart problems and was in a state of shock about Sandra's murder, yet Connie is the one driving the car, Connie is the one doing all of the coherent speaking.. Lawless at one point said " Whatever she said". Like he couldn't be bothered to form his own single complete sentence.

OK, JMO but this man was either medicated or he was displaying an inappropriately flat affect, especially given that he deals with death on a regular basis as a pastor, conducting funerals, etc.
Rev. Lawless tried very hard to hide behind his wife. He showed no concern for the family or the dead child on camera, nor was his demeanor that of a person who is used to public speaking.. He was not forthright, or even helpful. He repeated the reporter's question " Did I kill her?" and never makes eye contact, never gives an emphatic " NO", just sits there. while his wife starts talking again.

Notice that his wife Connie says the following: " Oh, it's so sad that someone would take a tiny little thing and ABUSE HER ___ Lawless mumbles to her " don't know that"_____
and then Connie says (louder) "and murder her".

WHY did Connie say ABUSE her???

Connie also said that they have a granddaughter who played with Sandra at the pastor's home quite often, and Lawless looked out the right side window away from the cameras and reporters when she said that part.

I don't mean to imply any wrongdoing. These are my observations of the video clip.
 
I copied this post to the "Church" thread but thought it would help to have it here as well. It was originally posted back in the General Discussion Thread #6. FWIW, she is a new WS member, this is her only post, and Admin has not verified who she claims to be. However, no one disagreed with her claim when she posted, and her post seems sincere and consistent with the tone of the website. (I read a bit on the website and they ask people to "Speak the truth in love" and they seem to be about healing the offended rather than bashing the offending.)


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3568392&postcount=295


Below is the content of that post (sorry, I couldn't figure out how to quote two different posts so I just copied hers):

Clover Road Baptist Church
Hi, everyone...

I'm new here. I'm the moderator of a site called www.sgmsurvivors.com, and I noticed that today we have received a number of hits from this board. A user posted information that linked Clover Road Baptist Church to the organization called Sovereign Grace Ministries that is the subject of the site that I moderate.

I haven't read all the posts here, so I don't know if this has already come up, but I just want to clarify that Clover Road Baptist Church has no connection to Sovereign Grace Ministries. Yes, Clover Road did at one point merge with another congregation that had "Sovereign Grace" in its name, but there has never been any affiliation between those churches and SGM.

I realize that this is probably old news and not a big deal, but I thought I'd post this info in case anyone was still under the impression that the issues discussed over at sgmsurvivors (our site) would have any relation to the investigation of Clover Road Baptist Church. They don't.

Thanks, and blessings to all. My heart is sad over the loss of Sandra!
 
Nora Charles said:
This is pretty much how I feel since I actually stopped and took a look at the other names. LOL They are all variances of his current name, and some certainly look like typos. My husband's and my mail - especially junk mail - arrives with the same variances and typos, and we've never used names that weren't our own except online - yeah, the secret's out I'm not really Nora Charles, no one could ever be except Myrna Loy. :)

My hinky meter rises, like yours, when it comes to the time period before his marriage. I also have another issue that makes me suspicious...Most Christians, especially pastors, desire their children to marry into the same faith, and a person who is strong and mature in his faith (that tends to hold true for other religions as well). It sounds like Lawless was a VERY new Christian since he got baptized on his wedding day (super weird - MOO!!!). But here's the thing...I wonder why a pastor performed the marriage ceremony between his daughter and a very new member of his faith. That just seems strange to me. Here's a guy who hasn't even bothered to get baptized before, yet all the Baptist churches I've heard of teach that is the first thing you do as a Christian to demonstrate being born again. They are called "Baptist" ya know? LOL It just seems weird to me that he wouldn't want to wait to see what kind of Christian this guy turned into before marrying him off to his own daughter.

SPECULATION ALERT/DON'T QUOTE AS FACT: This would especially be true if this guy had a "past" of any kind, which seems a possibility since we can't find anything about him before the marriage. MOO!!!!

Am I the only one who finds it strange that the father who was a pastor was quick to marry off his daughter to a very new Christian? TIA!
Click to expand...

I found the extremely quick and intense involvement with the Harris family in 1960 to be VERY unusual for that period of time, especially. ( Not that I can remember quite that far back, but I do remember what Baptist pastors were like in the later 60's, lol).

Yes, one of the strangest parts of this bio on Lawless is that there is a distinction made about the day Lawless was " saved" and the date of his baptism, which was his wedding day and that his FIL performed both ceremonies. The statement about him being " saved" implies that he was not a Christian when he met Connie, because Baptists recognize salvation in all other Christian denominations as well as the Baptist church. Usually, one would expect to read " Was received into the Baptist faith through baptism on July 6, 1960 at the ____ Baptist Church", if he had ever been a Methodist, Catholic, etc.

Yes, a pastor would expect his daughter to marry a good devout Baptist of long duration, especially at that point in time. I know that Lawless was in his 30's, but I don't know how old Connie was when they started dating. Maybe she was of the age to be away from her parent's home, or maybe she hid things from them, and they were unaware of the dating for a while, I don't know.

It appears that they only dated for 3-4 months before getting married.
I think I may have answered my and your questions about the entire rushed wedding/ baptism.
Was their first child born ' prematurely', by any chance ?
Anyone have DOBs on their offspring?
 
Nora Charles said:
I copied this post to the "Church" thread but thought it would help to have it here as well. It was originally posted back in the General Discussion Thread #6. FWIW, she is a new WS member, this is her only post, and Admin has not verified who she claims to be. However, no one disagreed with her claim when she posted, and her post seems sincere and consistent with the tone of the website. (I read a bit on the website and they ask people to "Speak the truth in love" and they seem to be about healing the offended rather than bashing the offending.)


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3568392&postcount=295


Below is the content of that post (sorry, I couldn't figure out how to quote two different posts so I just copied hers):

Clover Road Baptist Church
Hi, everyone...

I'm new here. I'm the moderator of a site called www.sgmsurvivors.com, and I noticed that today we have received a number of hits from this board. A user posted information that linked Clover Road Baptist Church to the organization called Sovereign Grace Ministries that is the subject of the site that I moderate.

I haven't read all the posts here, so I don't know if this has already come up, but I just want to clarify that Clover Road Baptist Church has no connection to Sovereign Grace Ministries. Yes, Clover Road did at one point merge with another congregation that had "Sovereign Grace" in its name, but there has never been any affiliation between those churches and SGM.

I realize that this is probably old news and not a big deal, but I thought I'd post this info in case anyone was still under the impression that the issues discussed over at sgmsurvivors (our site) would have any relation to the investigation of Clover Road Baptist Church. They don't.

Thanks, and blessings to all. My heart is sad over the loss of Sandra!
Click to expand...

I completely understand why the lady wrote this. Lawless was the pastor at A church called Sovereign Grace Missionary Baptist Church, per his bio.
People Googled and got the wrong website.
Edited to ask:
What is that website about, anyway? Why does there need to be a website about " surviving" something called " Sovereign Grace Ministries?"
Sounds interesting just the same, even if there is no direct connection between Lawless's former church and this survivor's website group.
 
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