CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #41

[sarx]

That's why I asked Sarx the question. In my opinion it's possible for a dog handler to cue their dog to alert at the target scent without them knowing that they did it.

It is. We've all done it, it's just whether we're willing to admit it or not, lol. You just hope that you figure it out in training. Dogs and their handlers are a team and the dog is so in tune with that person, they read body language, scent changes, breathing, everything. It really depends on the dog too, some dogs are easy to persuade, others hear, see and smell all that you're putting off and don't give a toot and stay on their path regardless.

 

[sarx]

sorry...I didn't read the comments.

It's ok, I've seen multiple pix of two dogs out at a time and am still confused whether they work them at the same time or what.

 

[katydid23]

Sarx,

I have one more question. [Sorry, I know you are busy. But we all have been very loyal to Dylan's thread, and this is the first new info we have had in ages.]

My question, which is not a fun one to ponder, is what condition might a body be after 5 months in an icy lake? Wouldn't it preserve it somewhat. We were wondering if it would still be possible to determine if his last meal was McDonalsd on Sunday or breakfast on Monday.

 

[RANCH]

Well that's the way things sounded but I knew the divers were at the dam on the extreme south side and it doesn't sound like that's where Wendy's dogs hit. I've heard 5 branch campground and also where the 5 rivers meet at the extreme northern side of this huge lake. Neither is close to the dam. Thus my confusion.

So Wendy deployed her dogs far away from the previous HRD dog alerts. I wonder why she did that?

Maybe she did that so not to cue her dogs by only deploying them in areas that the previous HRD dog's had alerted.

 

[Psychic Sleuth]

So it is possible that a body is towards the northern part of the lake and LE's dogs got hits way down stream at the damn? This is a huge lake! Also the thought crossed my mind that some body parts could be in different areas. As much as I hate to type this you never know.

 

[Psychic Sleuth]

It's ok, I've seen multiple pix of two dogs out at a time and am still confused whether they work them at the same time or what.

I know the 2 border collies are the HRD dogs. Is it not normal to work them both at the same time? It did look like from the pics that she was taking only one dog at a time to the holes in the ice.

 

[SCHMAE]

It sounds like it's even possible there might be a body up further north in one of the feeder rivers that flows down to the lake. ( if I understood correctly) One of those rivers runs all the way up to directly across from a really curious house . MOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[sarx]

Sarx,

I have one more question. [Sorry, I know you are busy. But we all have been very loyal to Dylan's thread, and this is the first new info we have had in ages.]

My question, which is not a fun one to ponder, is what condition might a body be after 5 months in an icy lake? Wouldn't it preserve it somewhat. We were wondering if it would still be possible to determine if his last meal was McDonalsd on Sunday or breakfast on Monday.

The water temp definitely slows things down, but I'm afraid I'm not qualified to answer that. It would depend too on how quickly the water temp dropped, what type of currents, what the bottom is like, what else lives in the water, and a whole lot of other factors.

 

[Psychic Sleuth]

Sadie, Sabor and Jetta came out today to help us see if they could scent in the same areas that the cadaver dogs hit on early in the case," said a posting on the Find Missing Dylan Redwine Facebook page Sunday.

The searchers said they opened five holes in the same area that the earlier search and rescue cadaver dogs had hit on a few days after Redwine went missing.

The searchers also opened another hole near the flow channel.

Each hole was checked multiple times, the family said.

BBM

Is 'the same area' just Vallecito lake in general? Where is the flow channel?

 

[KateNY]

LOL, holy cow, I had to run and feed the farm and bam!

Ok, in regards to LE, I think there is generally a whole lot of information that the public is not privy to, and they may very well have their reasons for their decisions and without knowing all the information, I'm not going to judge their decisions on this one.

To the question is it possible that there is a body or something upstream and the scent is wafting down? Yes, it is. Generally if you are looking in an area with a current like that, you would travel upstream and see where else if anywhere you get hits, which should either narrow down the area or eliminate areas. Not knowing if these dogs are trained for water searches or not though, it's hard to say. Keep in mind as well that the rate of decomp is going to greatly slow down in water that cold . It's going to change what the gases do. Which is another training issue.

In terms of ashes, again, training. Needless to say that's gonna be a different smell. Dogs can alert on pretty much anything they've been trained for, but they have to be trained for that particular thing. This is why some dogs can find really fresh deceased and some can find really really old, but not all can find one or the other.

so, just to theorize

Wendy took her dogs upstream , towards a possible source

and the dogs LE had down at the dam, hit on wafting scent

?

or is that backwards

 

[sarx]

So it is possible that a body is towards the northern part of the lake and LE's dogs got hits way down stream at the damn? This is a huge lake! Also the thought crossed my mind that some body parts could be in different areas. As much as I hate to type this you never know.

That would be an awful long ways for them to be hitting. Generally when they are on the boat they pick up the fringe of the scent and then "guide" the boat into ground zero, but not from one end of a big ole lake to the other, lol.

 

[Psychic Sleuth]

It sounds like it's even possible there might be a body up further north in one of the feeder rivers that flows down to the lake. ( if I understood correctly) One of those rivers runs all the way up to directly across from a really curious house . MOOOOOOOOOOOO

But that is a long ways away.

 

[Seek&Find]

According to K9 Forensics of Edgewood, a group that volunteered to help search for the missing 14-year-old, two cadaver dogs picked up a scent in the same place after holes were punched in frozen Vallecito Lake, which has been a focal point of the three-month search.

http://kdvr.com/2013/02/27/dylan-redwines-family-appears-on-dr-phil-dogs-find-scent-on-lake/

Sadie, Sabor and Jetta came out today to help us see if they could scent in the same areas that the cadaver dogs hit on early in the case," said a posting on the Find Missing Dylan Redwine Facebook page Sunday.

The searchers said they opened five holes in the same area that the earlier search and rescue cadaver dogs had hit on a few days after Redwine went missing.

The searchers also opened another hole near the flow channel.

Each hole was checked multiple times, the family said.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/new...ssing-teen-dylan-redwine#sthash.5RbELujk.dpuf

We opened 5 holes in the same area that the earlier SAR cadaver dogs hit on approximately 6 days after Dylan went missing. We then opened another hole near the flow channel. Sabor and Jetta were brought in at separate times to check each hole for us multiple times.

Investigators previously searched the Vallecito Lake area with search and rescue teams just days after Dylan first went missing, but say they were just double-checking this weekend.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/26/dylan-redwine-missing-parents-dr-phil_n_2762481.html BBM

LE is searching this weekend?

 

[sarx]

I know the 2 border collies are the HRD dogs. Is it not normal to work them both at the same time? It did look like from the pics that she was taking only one dog at a time to the holes in the ice.

No, at least not where I'm from it's not normal or done by anyone I know. You may have dogs working in different areas, starting at different points, but not turning them out together.

 

[rebeccaeee]

The water temp definitely slows things down, but I'm afraid I'm not qualified to answer that. It would depend too on how quickly the water temp dropped, what type of currents, what the bottom is like, what else lives in the water, and a whole lot of other factors.

The water temp was certainly cold but the lake did not ice over for at least 30 days after Dylan went missing.

Fascinating info all around, Sarx! I got the feeling LE dogs hit near the dam and that Wendy's dogs hit near the east, particularly after looking at the pics of her dogs at work. I think she took the dogs to the dam first, then headed east. They were also shown in the rivers up at the north end (near that curious house) but I did not read about alerts there.

 

[AnotherSetOfEyes]

Having a little trouble with my computer. So if I've posted this six times, sorry. I think it helps to see the rivers/creeks.

http://msrmaps.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=14&X=85&Y=1294&Z=13&W=3

 

[Seek&Find]

Guys, please read the links I just posted! Wendy's dogs were in the same area as the other hits, and in the flow channel.

 

[Psychic Sleuth]

That would be an awful long ways for them to be hitting. Generally when they are on the boat they pick up the fringe of the scent and then "guide" the boat into ground zero, but not from one end of a big ole lake to the other, lol.

That makes much more sense. I can't see the scent going that far. So LE's dogs were in boats hitting by the dam back in November and now Wendy's dogs are hitting on holes in the ice toward the Northern or Northeastern side. So what does that mean? 2 bodies? No bodies? All the dogs were wrong?

Another question. If Wendy's dogs hit on holes cut into the ice would the dog have to be pretty close to an actually body? I think that lake is pretty deep too.

 

[findDylan]

That would be an awful long ways for them to be hitting. Generally when they are on the boat they pick up the fringe of the scent and then "guide" the boat into ground zero, but not from one end of a big ole lake to the other, lol.

Ok. So if they are hitting at the dam and then at 1) the middle east end, could that be one body? Alternative 2) if at the very north end it's 2 separate bodies. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Psychic Sleuth]

So Wendy deployed her dogs far away from the previous HRD dog alerts. I wonder why she did that?

Maybe she did that so not to cue her dogs by only deploying them in areas that the previous HRD dog's had alerted.

It's my understanding that they cut several holes in the ice. Certainly some of them could have been down at the dam.