CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #49

[azgrandma]

IMO LE has not ruled anything out, not the lake, not the hills, not the backwoods, not anything. It's difficult to keep in mind (at least for me) that even though we (general) don't hear anything, it doesn't mean that they aren't doing anything. I sure wish I was a fly on the wall of the offices of all these detectives and agents.
I don't believe that LE did a bad job of searching the lake and I agree with Lash, considering the conditions at that time, I believe they did everything that they humanly and economically could do at that time. I personally would wish that LaPlata County would bankrupt itself in it's efforts to find Dylan, no stone unturned - literally, no expense too great or too small. The sad reality of it is that resources are limited and finite, conditions dictate searches and the saddest is that life goes on and other crimes become the priority.

It really sucks (pardon my language) that time passes, clues stop, bigger cases come along and the hopes of some dwindles so the family is left to try so much on their own.

 

[Redhead72]

I have been w/out the internet the last few days, so it will take me a bit to read the posts and catch up. I just wanted to check back in and explain my absence. I'm still catching up on the other events of this last week, too. What an emotional roller coaster... Still thinking of and praying for Dylan and his loved ones.

 

[cluciano63]

IMO LE has not ruled anything out, not the lake, not the hills, not the backwoods, not anything. It's difficult to keep in mind (at least for me) that even though we (general) don't hear anything, it doesn't mean that they aren't doing anything. I sure wish I was a fly on the wall of the offices of all these detectives and agents.
I don't believe that LE did a bad job of searching the lake and I agree with Lash, considering the conditions at that time, I believe they did everything that they humanly and economically could do at that time. I personally would wish that LaPlata County would bankrupt itself in it's efforts to find Dylan, no stone unturned - literally, no expense too great or too small. The sad reality of it is that resources are limited and finite, conditions dictate searches and the saddest is that life goes on and other crimes become the priority.

It really sucks (pardon my language) that time passes, clues stop, bigger cases come along and the hopes of some dwindles so the family is left to try so much on their own.

But the Durango area hasn't had any other major crime stories since Dylan went missing. The seeming lack of interest, or at least the lack of editorials or reporters pushing LE a little bit, is very sad. Smaller communities especially, IMO, would want to hear from LE about unsolved cases in their towns. But LE clams up. The same thing is happening in the case in Iowa of the two murdered girls and in upstate NY, in Jennifer Ramsaran's case, and countless others. At least the victims in those cases have been found. But to have a still-missing child and such silence should be considered unacceptable.

 

[AnotherSetOfEyes]

People have discussed the last text message or messages to RN as possibly being key to this case. No one, to my memory, seems to think the phone call to "the" property management company that MR mentioned in the interview with MB might be important. It seems odd to me. I hope that call was thoroughly checked out by LE. JMO
(Uncut interview with MB around 17:00.)

 

[ColdHands]

Sleuthers here are starting to mention costs. Multnomah County has spent around a million dollars investigating Kyron Horman's disappearance. Glendale PD spent $750,000 and 4 1/2 months searching the landfill for Jhessye Shockley.

I suggested to MB (reporter) that she should look into how much has been spent by LPCSO looking for Dylan. She wrote back that she had requested the data, but I've heard nothing from her in a month.

I was hoping for a press release today.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Sleuthers here are starting to mention costs. Multnomah County has spent around a million dollars investigating Kyron Horman's disappearance. Glendale PD spent $750,000 and 4 1/2 months searching the landfill for Jhessye Shockley.

I suggested to MB (reporter) that she should look into how much has been spent by LPCSO looking for Dylan. She wrote back that she had requested the data, but I've heard nothing from her in a month.

I was hoping for a press release today.

I would like to know how much money was spent on Jessica Ridgeway's case because she went missing from Colorado too, and there were many jurisdictions involved in her case. It would be interesting to compare the numbers in both cases. JonBenet was also in Colorado, and I know the investigation cost over $2 million (of doughnuts jk)....and we all know what a trainwreck that has been. Sadly, I don't think anywhere near as much money that was spent on those two girls' cases was spent on Dylan's case. And I wonder: Why? If Dylan's case had more media interest, would more money be spent on it? Is there a correlation?

 

[cluciano63]

I would like to know how much money was spent on Jessica Ridgeway's case because she went missing from Colorado too, and there were many jurisdictions involved in her case. It would be interesting to compare the numbers in both cases. JonBenet was also in Colorado, and I know the investigation cost over $2 million (of doughnuts jk)....and we all know what a trainwreck that has been. Sadly, I don't think anywhere near as much money that was spent on those two girls' cases was spent on Dylan's case. And I wonder: Why? If Dylan's case had more media interest, would more money be spent on it? Is there a correlation?

Media interest combined with public pressure, perhaps, would produce, or would have produced what might look like a more extensive, intricate investigation. The national media really did not latch onto this case.

I really believe the very idea of a possible custodial dispute "lost" the case in the eyes of the media and the general public. Although I do not believe it, many may see it as a case of a child being "hidden" and therefore cared for and at least physically safe and that sooner or later, the parent responsible will come to their senses. And some probably just plain are not interested in "custodial" disputes. The Dr. Phil show did not help, in that respect anyway.

I do not think LE assigned to this case have the slightest idea what happened to Dylan. MR presents himself as a plausible suspect, just by being himself, but I doubt they have a real case against him. And if it wasn't him, I believe too much time was lost initially.

I feel very pessimisstic about the chances of Dylan being found, less of his receiving justice.

 

[AnotherSetOfEyes]

Media interest combined with public pressure, perhaps, would produce, or would have produced what might look like a more extensive, intricate investigation. The national media really did not latch onto this case.

I really believe the very idea of a possible custodial dispute "lost" the case in the eyes of the media and the general public. Although I do not believe it, many may see it as a case of a child being "hidden" and therefore cared for and at least physically safe and that sooner or later, the parent responsible will come to their senses. And some probably just plain are not interested in "custodial" disputes. The Dr. Phil show did not help, in that respect anyway.

I do not think LE assigned to this case have the slightest idea what happened to Dylan. MR presents himself as a plausible suspect, just by being himself, but I doubt they have a real case against him. And if it wasn't him, I believe too much time was lost initially.

I feel very pessimisstic about the chances of Dylan being found, less of his receiving justice.

BBM - Wish I could toss this stated feeling off as totally baseless. Sadly, these fears are becoming harder and harder for me to keep at bay as well.

 

[Redhead72]

People have discussed the last text message or messages to RN as possibly being key to this case. No one, to my memory, seems to think the phone call to "the" property management company that MR mentioned in the interview with MB might be important. It seems odd to me. I hope that call was thoroughly checked out by LE. JMO
(Uncut interview with MB around 17:00.)

I remember hearing about a phone call to a property manager, but I never really knew all the details about the call. I remember people talking about it right before I was offline for a couple months in late December/early Jan.

Would you be able to, or is there someone else on the board who can quickly fill me in on the stuff about the prop. manager? Which property? Whose property? etc...

TIA :seeya:

 

[AnotherSetOfEyes]

I remember hearing about a phone call to a property manager, but I never really knew all the details about the call. I remember people talking about it right before I was offline for a couple months in late December/early Jan.

Would you be able to, or is there someone else on the board who can quickly fill me in on the stuff about the prop. manager? Which property? Whose property? etc...

TIA :seeya:

Thanks for that information! I did not know it had been discussed. The reason I think it could be important is that if MR was involved, that call could have been placed to someone for help. The fact that MR said "the" property manager as opposed to "my" property manager is also significant, IMO. I'm not very good yet at searching this forum, so I hope someone else can point us both to the discussion.

 

[ColdHands]

I remember hearing about a phone call to a property manager, but I never really knew all the details about the call. I remember people talking about it right before I was offline for a couple months in late December/early Jan.

Would you be able to, or is there someone else on the board who can quickly fill me in on the stuff about the prop. manager? Which property? Whose property? etc...

TIA :seeya:

From the uncut video interview with MB transcript: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8813297&postcount=79"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Dylan Redwine *Media , Maps & Timelines*[/ame]

Mark Redwine:
Uh… I made a phone call to a property management company because there was a check that they were trying to get that I had sent to ‘em and I just wanted to make sure but I didn’t stop by there, it was a simple phone call.

This is one of the 3 errands that he has stated for that Monday - 1) trip to his payroll office 2) call to a property management company about a check 3) attorney's office.

Good question about which property? My assumption has been that it is the property at 61 Windmill which is known to be rented out (And has been searched, I believe. There are renters there who appear to be unrelated to this case. I do not have links, so MOO for now).

 

[AnotherSetOfEyes]

I remember hearing about a phone call to a property manager, but I never really knew all the details about the call. I remember people talking about it right before I was offline for a couple months in late December/early Jan.

Would you be able to, or is there someone else on the board who can quickly fill me in on the stuff about the prop. manager? Which property? Whose property? etc...

TIA :seeya:

BBM-This is the question I would like to see answered.

 

[Redhead72]

I would like to know how much money was spent on Jessica Ridgeway's case because she went missing from Colorado too, and there were many jurisdictions involved in her case. It would be interesting to compare the numbers in both cases. JonBenet was also in Colorado, and I know the investigation cost over $2 million (of doughnuts jk)....and we all know what a trainwreck that has been. Sadly, I don't think anywhere near as much money that was spent on those two girls' cases was spent on Dylan's case. And I wonder: Why? If Dylan's case had more media interest, would more money be spent on it? Is there a correlation?

Jessica's search involved numerous jurisdictions and towns with quite sizeable police forces (Westminster, Arvada, Broomfield City/County, and Jefferson County). The amount of tax income in these jurisdictions is quite a bit higher than what I would imagine comes in for Bayfield, and La Plata County. There is much less crime in the Valley vs. the Front Range. Westminster and surrounding areas are suburban/urban areas that deal with serious crimes and gang problems, etc... Just pointing this out to say that the amount of money spent wouldn't really be comparable simply because of the size of the budgets to begin with.

I don't think non-interest, or media attention, would have changed many things in this case as they've happened to date. I think the only thing that perhaps should have been different in this case was the time wasted (as others have pointed out) in doing a thorough search of MR's home, yard, vehicles, computers, etc... But, I don't know that they would have had enough to go in front of a judge and get access to his home before they did, either. So, I am reserving my judgement a bit in regard to LE not having done all they could do in this case, but I wish things would've moved quicker into suspicion of everyone mode vs. runaway mode.

I think many people started having questions about MR pretty soon - he was always a just a little "off" in his reactions, imo. I think in many people's minds there is unfortunately no big need to look further than MR for what happened in this case. I think that's why there isn't a whole lot of media attention on Dylan anymore - and wasn't a lot outside the state of Colorado (except on FB for one).

I'm not suggesting that LE takes the same view as the public, of course. I have no idea what LE suspects at this time because they haven't shared that with us. They definitely didn't take that view initially in regard to MR being of *special consideration* - at least not publicly in the first few days. That's understandable though - if the police tell the public they suspect his dad had something to do with it all, then people will stop looking outside the local area for evidence, clues - or most importantly - Dylan.

As always, all of the above is completely MOO! :cow:

 

[Redhead72]

Thanks for that information! I did not know it had been discussed. The reason I think it could be important is that if MR was involved, that call could have been placed to someone for help. The fact that MR said "the" property manager as opposed to "my" property manager is also significant, IMO. I'm not very good yet at searching this forum, so I hope someone else can point us both to the discussion.

That's a really good point about "the" instead of "my". I don't recall MR mentioning the manager after very early on in all of this. It wasn't brought up on DP, or any other recent media that I'm aware of at all.

I'm not great at searching yet, either... LOL

 

[Redhead72]

From the uncut video interview with MB transcript: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Dylan Redwine *Media , Maps & Timelines*

Mark Redwine:
Uh… I made a phone call to a property management company because there was a check that they were trying to get that I had sent to ‘em and I just wanted to make sure but I didn’t stop by there, it was a simple phone call.

This is one of the 3 errands that he has stated for that Monday - 1) trip to his payroll office 2) call to a property management company about a check 3) attorney's office.

Good question about which property? My assumption has been that it is the property at 61 Windmill which is known to be rented out (And has been searched, I believe. There are renters there who appear to be unrelated to this case. I do not have links, so MOO for now).

Thanks, for finding that. I appreciate it. Did he say he made the call while he was in town, or back home? Maybe that's how they know he made it back home around 11:30? (Just speculating, of course...).

It would be interesting to know which property manager he was speaking with. It sounds like he was paying for something in regard to making sure they had gotten his check.

 

[AnotherSetOfEyes]

Thanks, for finding that. I appreciate it. Did he say he made the call while he was in town, or back home? Maybe that's how they know he made it back home around 11:30? (Just speculating, of course...).

It would be interesting to know which property manager he was speaking with. It sounds like he was paying for something in regard to making sure they had gotten his check.

MR had been talking to MB about what he did in town. He said, IIRC, that he went to his payroll office, she asked any place else and he said his divorce lawyer. She asked is that it, (paraphrasing) and he replied he made a call to the property manager. I might have the sequence out of order.

ETA, Besides thinking which property management company he called is very important, I question why if he didn't go there, did he need to call while in town and did he call from his own phone?

 

[Redhead72]

I've seen that there are deeper areas of the lake, but I think those areas aren't in the search area.

What I've seen in the articles is that the area they searched was 40 feet deep, and that the divers went to 40 feet. That tells me they went to the bottom.

I didn't see LE or divers say they couldn't get to the bottom, or that there was anything they couldn't accomplish.

It seems to me this was a crack team of professional state police divers. I can't see them doing an inadequate job or leaving the job incomplete, and I don't think they would use inadequate equipment.

:twocents: Not trying to argue or convince anyone. Just explaining my thinking. I respect everyone else's right to their opinion.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, they were searching on the side of the lake near the damn.
The average depth of water on the shore may be 40 feet, however, closer to the dam - where they were also searching - is 110-167 ft. deep.
Divers could only dive 40 feet due to the limitations of altitude/pressure/oxygen of diving in that lake itself. The time they spent could only be 20 minutes, and then not again for an entire day. This isn't to mention the dangers of diving in the extreme cold.

I don't think anyone is stating that the NM dive team didn't do their best, at all. I think what people are saying - or at least what I'm saying - is that the NM dive team was limited by conditions, and not by incompetence in any way whatsoever. I also acknowledge the fact that there are other considerations at play in regard to how long a dive team can search in one area, the budgetary, and of course the risk assessment to the divers themselves is figured in there, too.

Also, it's not about using inadequate equipment. The fact is that the equipment they were using - like all sensitive equipment - was having trouble functioning correctly in the extreme cold water as well. Also, ROVs and some of the really sophisticated sonar that some of these professional dive teams have does far outshine the equipment that is able to be afforded by search and rescue teams. It's sad, but very true...

Again, at least for me, it's not a matter of disrespecting the NM dive team at all to speak of them not being able to complete a thorough search of all parts of the lake - especially in the deepest parts by the dam where undertow would take someone's body.

As far as why LE won't conduct another search, I really wonder what the risks are to the divers that far deep, in a lake at that altitude, even when the water temperature in the top 10 feet or so is around 50-60 degrees?

Also, please note: The temperature of the water may be a factor in holding off a search until Mid-may. Vallecito Reservoir water never gets warmer than an average temperature of 60 degrees even in the summer. Perhaps they want to wait until it's at least 50-60 degrees so that they have the best chance of good weather, and lower risks to the divers?

[I definitely respect your right to your opinion. I just wanted to point out that I don't think anyone here is accusing the NM team of being incompetent in any way, shape, or form. At least that is definitely not my intention... I believe they are a top-notch search and rescue team, and are extremely competent and very valuable individuals. I also believe that this lake (and this case) present special challenges of many sorts - the conditions at the time of the initial lake search are one of them. (And, a factor that will be present even in some way during the Summertime, I believe - altitude/depth/pressure concerns.)]

All of the above is MOO! :cow:

 

[ColdHands]

La Plata County conducts its meetings publicly, streams and records them. I'm on my iPad so couldn't listen to audio tonight.

Link to archived business meetings: http://co.laplata.co.us/meetings

The only financial reference I could find to Dylan was on the December 18th agenda. The topics that night included a resolution to move money from the contingency fund to several department funds for FY2012 budget overruns.

Link to Dec 18, 2012 agenda: http://laplata.granicus.com/GeneratedAgendaViewer.php?view_id=3&clip_id=1089

Amendment 2012-28 - Due to a number of major, unanticipated investigations (including several homicides and an unresolved missing person case), the Sheriff’s Office Criminal Investigations Division is expected to exceed their overtime budget in 2012.

Link to details supporting this: http://laplata.granicus.com/MetaViewer.php?view_id=3&clip_id=1089&meta_id=89327

$23,000 was transferred from the contingency fund to the sheriff's department budget. Note that this is not all attributed to the search and investigation for Dylan.

I reviewed the cash payments (accounts payable detail) for each meeting through April. There are minor interesting amounts here and there. There were large amounts (about 34k) in January transferred to the Town of Bayfield and categorized under HITDA, which is a grant related to drug trafficking. I'm not sure if that's applicable so I may do more research on that over the weekend.

 

[The Cheese]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, they were searching on the side of the lake near the damn.
The average depth of water on the shore may be 40 feet, however, closer to the dam - where they were also searching - is 110-167 ft. deep.
Divers could only dive 40 feet due to the limitations of altitude/pressure/oxygen of diving in that lake itself. The time they spent could only be 20 minutes, and then not again for an entire day. This isn't to mention the dangers of diving in the extreme cold.

I don't think anyone is stating that the NM dive team didn't do their best, at all. I think what people are saying - or at least what I'm saying - is that the NM dive team was limited by conditions, and not by incompetence in any way whatsoever. I also acknowledge the fact that there are other considerations at play in regard to how long a dive team can search in one area, the budgetary, and of course the risk assessment to the divers themselves is figured in there, too.

Also, it's not about using inadequate equipment. The fact is that the equipment they were using - like all sensitive equipment - was having trouble functioning correctly in the extreme cold water as well. Also, ROVs and some of the really sophisticated sonar that some of these professional dive teams have does far outshine the equipment that is able to be afforded by search and rescue teams. It's sad, but very true...

Again, at least for me, it's not a matter of disrespecting the NM dive team at all to speak of them not being able to complete a thorough search of all parts of the lake - especially in the deepest parts by the dam where undertow would take someone's body.

As far as why LE won't conduct another search, I really wonder what the risks are to the divers that far deep, in a lake at that altitude, even when the water temperature in the top 10 feet or so is around 50-60 degrees?

Also, please note: The temperature of the water may be a factor in holding off a search until Mid-may. Vallecito Reservoir water never gets warmer than an average temperature of 60 degrees even in the summer. Perhaps they want to wait until it's at least 50-60 degrees so that they have the best chance of good weather, and lower risks to the divers?

[I definitely respect your right to your opinion. I just wanted to point out that I don't think anyone here is accusing the NM team of being incompetent in any way, shape, or form. At least that is definitely not my intention... I believe they are a top-notch search and rescue team, and are extremely competent and very valuable individuals. I also believe that this lake (and this case) present special challenges of many sorts - the conditions at the time of the initial lake search are one of them. (And, a factor that will be present even in some way during the Summertime, I believe - altitude/depth/pressure concerns.)]

All of the above is MOO! :cow:

BBM

For me to think the LE dive team's search was inadequate or incomplete or that something was left undone, I have to first know what it is that they did not do that they should have done, and I can't find anything. For me personally, I can't assume that something wasn't done, or wasn't done adequately, because of a condition that I don't know existed.

- I found multiple articles stating the water in the area they were searching was 40 feet, and that they dove to 40 feet. I didn't find anything from LE or the divers stating the water where they were searching was 110 feet or so, but they could only dive to 40 feet or they couldn't get to the bottom.

I do think the lake is deeper than 40 feet in parts, but not in the areas they were searching. If the divers and LE say it was 40 feet where they were searching, I can't say it was actually deeper. They were there and I wasn't.

- I found articles detailing the difficulty of the conditions (altitude, temps, etc), but I didn't find anything where LE or the divers said any of those difficult conditions kept them from doing anything. Difficult conditions to me doesn't mean that a task can't be completed, and done adequately (or even well). Lord knows in my life, both professionally and personally, I've completed tasks and done them adequately (and even well) under extremely difficult conditions.

- I didn't find anything from LE or the divers stating that there were things they couldn't do or couldn't complete because of how long a dive team can search an area, budgetary considerations, or risk to the divers.

- I didn't find anything from LE or the divers stating that the equipment they were using wasn't functioning correctly because of extreme cold water, or because of any other factor. I didn't find anything from LE or the divers saying their equipment was inadequate for the job.

Not arguing or trying to convince anyone. Not even asking for links lol. Just explaining why I think what I think, which is that the State Police dive team did an adequate and complete job, and didn't leave anything undone. I'm fine with others' opinions.

JMO IMO MOO etc

 

[*Lash*]

Hi Cheese!

I don't think you're arguing or trying to convince anyone. I appreciate your logic and respect your opinion. We just happen to have a differing opinion.

In my opinion, the NM team did what they could at the time. I do think they're a professional respected team. I believe some of the statements made by Bender during the search in November indicate the divers were used liberally because of the water temperature and the depth of the lake. Imo- liberally, out of concern for the safety of the divers. Then in December, more than a week later the search team was back out on the lake. The search team did not dive. Bender said they were checking in case changes in water and lake conditions could have resulted in any changes from last week. What changes could have occurred that would change the search results? In my opinion, I take from this, LE was not able to rule out the lake because of the conditions at the time of the first search.

Bender also stated the hits could have been from an elk or dead animal even though the dog owners stated the dogs are trained to differentiate between human remains and animal remains. If there was a dead elk, why didn't they find the animal?

November -

Divers have to be used judiciously, Bender said. The elevation of Vallecito, 7,700 feet, the 38 degree water and its depth, 40 feet, allow them to search safely for only 20 to 30 minutes.

Then, divers must wait eight hours before working again, Bender said. “Divers can’t take a break to have a Coke, then go back down,” he said.

http://durangoherald.com/article/20121126/NEWS01/121129702/Frustration-mounting

December -

Three boats equipped with sonar searched areas of Vallecito Reservoir that haven’t previously been searched, he said.

“We have no new tips that have sent us back to the lake, but we’re checking in case changes in water and lake conditions could have resulted in any changes from last week,” Bender said in a release.

“These new searches are not based on any new tips, either,” he said. “We are just trying to be as thorough as possible and look as many places as we can for Dylan.”

http://durangoherald.com/article/20121204/NEWS01/121209802/0/News03/Area-reservoirs-searched-again