CO CO - Jaryd Atadero, 3, Comanche Peak, 2 Oct 1999

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

New Posts

I had a look for papers on whether animals ever remove people's clothes before devouring them but I can't find much about Mountain Lion attacks at all, presumably because they're so rare. And for an animal to attack, kill and devour someone is even rarer, because usually they're found before that happens.

However, I did find that there are a lot of papers about people who die at home and then are eaten by their pets! Apparently this can make it more difficult for coroners to determine a COD so that's why it's important to study it. Usually it is dogs, and they usually start with the parts that aren't covered by clothing - the head and arms. There are quite a few cases where the head has been completely removed by the person's dogs, whilst the rest of the body was still mostly intact (because the death was discovered before the dog had chance to eat any more of the body) and I found one case (involving 3 German Shepherds) where only a few teeth and skull fragments remained. If the head and arms were removed it would be easy for an animal to pull off the t-shirt/ sweater. Lack of blood is normal when the animals only start to eat the person after they are dead and this and a lack of defensive wounds is how the coroner determines whether the animals attacked the person and killed them, or whether they just fed on the body after death.

Post-mortem decapitation by domestic dogs: three case reports and review of the literature:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12024-011-9233-x


WARNING VERY GRAPHIC IMAGES:
Unusual Injury Pattern in a Case of Postmortem Animal Depredation by a Domestic German Shepherd:
http://mobile.journals.lww.com/amjf...ewer.aspx?year=1999&issue=09000&article=00006
 
Okay, I'm not discounting mountain lions, a human kidnapper, or even a Sasquatch. But from what Rayemonde found about a lack of blood evidence at a cat attack IF the body is dead first (thanks for that link), I'm inclined to think that poor Jaryd went off trail, got lost, climbed up the mountain (I can attest for a fact that at least some 3-year-olds love to climb much more than go downhill!) and passed away. Later, an unidentified animal (or animals - there were two types of hair found?) scavenged his body. In the process, it/they pulled his pants inside out. I also read that Jaryd's father said the clothing was "covered in hair." I'll try to find that link.

As for the shoes looking new, that bothers me greatly. I don't think they would look that good after that long in the elements. I did have an inspiration, though... what if Jaryd's body was dragged into an animal den, where it stayed for a long time out of the rain, and then was dragged outside shortly before it was found. The second animal type (two kinds of hair) then scavenged whatever remained.

Sorry to be so graphic. And, really, I haven't had time to think this through, so there may be holes in the theory for sure.
 
Good theory, I like it :) There were 2 types of hair found on Jaryd's clothing, dark and light. Jaryd's hair was dark so I think the dark hair was assumed to be his, and the light colored hair was animal hair.
 
I've seen this over and over. A ml will also drink the blood of its pray after carefully making an incision. There really isn't as much blood in a ml attack as there would be with other wild animals. Its kind of interesting. Amazing animals for sure.

"After killing a deer, a cougar goes about its feeding with almost surgical precision. The cat plucks the fur from the point of incision using its teeth, then, using its claws, the flank is opened behind the ribs. The stomach and intestines are pulled out and dragged away from the carcass; heart, lungs, and liver are removed and eaten first"

"They probably get a lot of water from drinking the blood of prey. We find very little blood spillage in the kills on our study area." Logan believes blood provides the cougar with nutrients, vitamins, and water"

http://www.mountainlion.org/CAL_ch4.asp
 
Rayemonde said:
Apparently when feeding on humans, Mountain Lions tend to start with the face and torso.
https://books.google.com/books?hl=e...v=onepage&q=big cat attacks on humans&f=false

Jaryd's father said he didn't believe it was a mountain lion because he was told they start at the abdomen, yet he said there was no blood or tears to the abdominal area of the clothes.
Click to expand...

Yep they sure do start at the abdominal area. But there are very good reasons why there wouldn't have been blood.
But you'd think rips to the shirt would be evident. That's kind of weird.
 
This is such a strange case that evidently was not investigated to it's fullest.

What about the fisherman? Maybe they did something with him (awful to think) and then left his body and an animal scavenged it.

Why was a 3 year old going on a hike with a group that sounds like he had little guidance (i.e. bouncing between the two groups) that sounds very odd. No one was keeping track of him?

LE using the father's scent to give the dogs to track :( so they didn't even have Jaryd's scent to track?

Not figuring out what animals' hair is on Jaryd's shirt? So odd.

So beyond the balls dropped by LE, and if there truly wasn't a human involved. I could see him going off on a train and getting hyperthermia, he takes off his clothes, and a Mountain lion does take him.

As for his shoes, maybe they were caught in between rocks, and snow and ice preserved them for much of the year. I have lived in CO and there is still snow in places sometimes until June...then it starts snowing again in September. So if they were in a shady rocky place, they may have been preserved.

Also I have hiked many out of the way places in CO and OR. It has been really creepy a few times finding an out cropping with bones scattered on it, and below it. Mountain Lions do like to take their prey to an overlook to consume them. I came to one place that I could see from another out cropping that was littered with many bones...it was really creepy and I left pronto. But I have closely encountered Mountain lions a few times. Once a cub was standing by a trail. Luckily my dog was right by my side, I clipped the leash on...kept going very quickly..then once I was a few hundred feet away started singing at the top of my voice. hahaha...I kept turning in circles as I know the ML's attack from behind. I figured momma was close by in her den, and didn't want her to become protective toward me (obviously). Anyway they make their dens in those rocks, so maybe he got close and she became protective.
 
The area where Jaryd's remains were found had been searched at the beginning by helicopter, but not by people on foot. LE said they thought it wouldn't be possible for a small child to climb up there by himself, so they didn't bother searching up there. But a Mountain Lion could easily carry a kid up there.

I read somewhere, BTW, that Jaryd was 3 years 8 months old, so old enough to undress himself I guess.

I'm not sure about the dogs accidentally being given Jaryd's dad's scent instead of Jaryd's, because as a distraught parent I don't think he is the most reliable witness. Some of the things he says LE said to him sound kind of unlikely. I think he desperately wants someone to blame for Jaryd's death, too. He tried unsuccessfully to press negligence charges against the hikers who lost him.

From what I've read, Jaryd's dad owned a hostel or hostel, and a group of Christian singles came there to stay. They asked if they could take Jaryd and Jaryd's older sibling on an easy hike, and Jaryd's dad said yes. But he says that instead of going on the short, easy hike he had given permission for, they took the kids on a much longer hike. The hikers became split into two groups, and each group assumed Jaryd was with the other group. Jaryd was going off ahead and hiking behind rocks, then jumping out and shouting "BOO!" at the hikers when they jumped out. Jaryd's dad said he had asked one woman in particular to watch Jaryd, but it wasn't until the two groups met up again that they realised Jaryd was missing.

During the search the SAR helicopter crashed and several people were injured. I'm sure that didn't help the search efforts at all :(
 
From giagreen's article above (thanks for the link!): http://www.mountainlion.org/CAL_ch4.asp
"Following a successful kill, cats rarely feed immediately.(13) This characteristic is probably a response to the level of hunger, energy expended during the attack, and the excitement of the attack. At some point, though, the cougar will drag or carry the carcass to a protected spot, such as under a tree, and begin to feed.(38) The cougar's instinct to hide its kill is strong. After eating its fill, the cougar will hide the carcass by covering it with pine needles, limbs, and small twigs. Hiding the carcass protects it from scavengers, such as coyotes and ravens, and keeps the meat cool and fresh. Using its claws as rakes, the cat will stand over the kill and drag the debris inward with its front feet. Even soil and small rocks are used when nothing else is available. Shaw once found a deer killed on a large granite boulder in Arizona by a radio-collared lion. The female cougar had placed a single twig on the carcass before leaving.(38)

The cougar will typically remain in the vicinity of its kill for up to five days, making frequent trips back to feed and protect the carcass from other carnivores and scavengers. It's not uncommon for a lion to move the carcass after each feeding. Fred Lindzey reports that lions will sometimes move a carcass over 100 yards each time, then feed on it.(9) How long the cat remains with the kill and the degree to which it is consumed depends on the size and weight of the cougar, the size of the prey, and weather conditions.(38)"

A hidden body would not be seen by helicopter. Heartbreaking.

Now, if they would just release the DNA results on the hair(s)!!!
 
Rayemonde said:
The hikers became split into two groups, and each group assumed Jaryd was with the other group. Jaryd was going off ahead and hiking behind rocks, then jumping out and shouting "BOO!" at the hikers when they jumped out. Jaryd's dad said he had asked one woman in particular to watch Jaryd, but it wasn't until the two groups met up again that they realised Jaryd was missing. :(
Click to expand...
I'm sure that every one in that group, especially the one woman in particular, feels deep regret for losing Jaryd. I would have nightmares forever. I'm sure that is punishment enough.

I made a point about group behavior while watching kids in the DeOrr thread (before I quit trying to keep up with it.) It is a LOT easier to watch kids when it's just you than it is when there are multiple people around. If it's just you, it's hard to forget to watch their every little sneaky move. But, even add one adult, and it's REALLY easy to assume that somebody else has the child. If you haven't been around small children in a while, I think it's easy to forget this lesson. One would think more eyes would make kids safer, but in reality, I think it's the opposite, especially in an outdoors situation where there are few safe boundaries. Hey, let's take that thought over to the Missing/411 thread....
 
BlkMtnGirl said:
From giagreen's article above (thanks for the link!): http://www.mountainlion.org/CAL_ch4.asp
"Following a successful kill, cats rarely feed immediately.(13) This characteristic is probably a response to the level of hunger, energy expended during the attack, and the excitement of the attack. At some point, though, the cougar will drag or carry the carcass to a protected spot, such as under a tree, and begin to feed.(38) The cougar's instinct to hide its kill is strong. After eating its fill, the cougar will hide the carcass by covering it with pine needles, limbs, and small twigs. Hiding the carcass protects it from scavengers, such as coyotes and ravens, and keeps the meat cool and fresh. Using its claws as rakes, the cat will stand over the kill and drag the debris inward with its front feet. Even soil and small rocks are used when nothing else is available. Shaw once found a deer killed on a large granite boulder in Arizona by a radio-collared lion. The female cougar had placed a single twig on the carcass before leaving.(38)

The cougar will typically remain in the vicinity of its kill for up to five days, making frequent trips back to feed and protect the carcass from other carnivores and scavengers. It's not uncommon for a lion to move the carcass after each feeding. Fred Lindzey reports that lions will sometimes move a carcass over 100 yards each time, then feed on it.(9) How long the cat remains with the kill and the degree to which it is consumed depends on the size and weight of the cougar, the size of the prey, and weather conditions.(38)"

A hidden body would not be seen by helicopter. Heartbreaking.

Now, if they would just release the DNA results on the hair(s)!!!
Click to expand...
And it sounds so graphic because this is a 3 year old little boy we are talking about :(

But I think he would of weighed about 30-40 pounds or so. So I dont think it would of took a ml a whole lot of time to get away with him and then to consum him. I think they hide more of the bigger prey they catch like deer's and antelopes.

I also think Jaryd could of been taken right off the trail. This to me says it was a very hungry ml or was sickly.

There was another little boy that was taken by a ml while hiking with family. He was only 15 feet ahead of his group. Luckily his dad seen and they were able to save him. Its just kind of crazy to think of how things would of turned out if his dad hadn't seen him being attacked by a ml.

"The boy was hiking with his parents on a trail about a mile from the winery. He was about 15 feet ahead when the mountain lion grabbed him. The boy's father and another man ran at the mountain lion, shouting and chased it away.

The boy's family was with another family so, the mountain lion attacked with 10 people around."

http://abc7news.com/news/mountain-lion-attacks-child-on-hiking-trail-in-cupertino/298481/

And I'll just add to this post instead of posting again. But I seriously wonder how much of these disappearances are from ml....they eat bones and all. They are hard to study cause of how solitaire they are. I know that Ken Logan did an 8 year, 2 million dollar study on them...I think some of this article is some of what he found. So idk I think there is a whole lot more we don't know.
 
Wait what? I am new to this thread so please correct me. The hiker group, (Christian singles?) staying at the father's place OFFERED to take a 3 1/2 yr old , unrelated to any of them, on their hike?
 
BlkMtnGirl said:
Okay, I'm not discounting mountain lions, a human kidnapper, or even a Sasquatch. But from what Rayemonde found about a lack of blood evidence at a cat attack IF the body is dead first (thanks for that link), I'm inclined to think that poor Jaryd went off trail, got lost, climbed up the mountain (I can attest for a fact that at least some 3-year-olds love to climb much more than go downhill!) and passed away. Later, an unidentified animal (or animals - there were two types of hair found?) scavenged his body. In the process, it/they pulled his pants inside out. I also read that Jaryd's father said the clothing was "covered in hair." I'll try to find that link.

As for the shoes looking new, that bothers me greatly. I don't think they would look that good after that long in the elements. I did have an inspiration, though... what if Jaryd's body was dragged into an animal den, where it stayed for a long time out of the rain, and then was dragged outside shortly before it was found. The second animal type (two kinds of hair) then scavenged whatever remained.

Sorry to be so graphic. And, really, I haven't had time to think this through, so there may be holes in the theory for sure.
Click to expand...

As ML Cubs mature, the mother takes them TO the kills rather than bringing the kill to the Cubs as she had done when they were younger. I have read that often the Cubs play at and with the kill before eating. I think it's very possible that ML Cubs, while playing, pulled Jaryd's pants off which would have caused them to end up inside out. The missing pant leg is not a big question, because MLs shred fabric and consume it along with the kill.

ETA: The fact that ML cubs still have their spots beyond one year of age could account for the two different color hairs that were found.
 
Just coming into this thread having read everyone's posts, but not the articles that have been posted, I do want to comment on the pictures of Jaryd's articles of clothing that were posted early on.

I find it peculiar his pants would be missing most of one leg from them and the crotch area still be intact. I don't know why exactly this strikes me as being odd, but fwiw, it does.

Also, the shoe. Years out in the area, and it looks untouched by any animal. The laces of his shoes really are of interest to me too. Perhaps he took off his own shoe, but would he know how to untie the laces? Animals don't. Perhaps his shoe was already untied and he took it off; but still, out there with animals that are being stated to have attacked him or eaten him and that shoe doesn't appear to have any gnaw markings on it at all.

More about the laces. They're pulled loose at the top the way you'd pull them loose just before putting a shoe on or just before taking one off, but even if a three-year-old could untie his shoes and take them off, would he really do that part with the laces? out in the woods? while lost? If an animal were pulling at the laces it seems to me there'd be a lot more fraying going on in that area in particular as well. The laces at the top of his shoe, they're not even matted down from the weather . . . if they got wet then wouldn't they have fallen onto the shoe? And if by some chance LE pulled the laces to look into the toe of the shoe before the picture was taken then I don't see them depressing the tongue back into the shoe before taking the picture.
 
According to Jaryd's father Jaryd never tied his shoes. Leaving it more confusing they didn't fall off if he was dragged by a ml.
 
ILOKAL said:
As ML Cubs mature, the mother takes them TO the kills rather than bringing the kill to the Cubs as she had done when they were younger. I have read that often the Cubs play at and with the kill before eating. I think it's very possible that ML Cubs, while playing, pulled Jaryd's pants off which would have caused them to end up inside out. The missing pant leg is not a big question, because MLs shred fabric and consume it along with the kill.
Click to expand...

Good thinking... I can certainly imagine young, playful animals pulling the trousers off like that.
 
I was looking for something else yesterday and came across a photo of a sheep that had been killed by a mountain lion. Unfortunately, when I clicked on the picture to take me to the page, I couldn't find THAT photo on the page which is why I'm not posting the link. The page was about a company in Oklahoma that comes to your farm, ranch, or home to take care of menacing animals. Anyway, the sheep had been sheared, almost completely. It didn't appear to have been eaten by the ML, just sheared and left. Interesting.
 
Aeronomy said:
Just coming into this thread having read everyone's posts, but not the articles that have been posted, I do want to comment on the pictures of Jaryd's articles of clothing that were posted early on.

I find it peculiar his pants would be missing most of one leg from them and the crotch area still be intact. I don't know why exactly this strikes me as being odd, but fwiw, it does.

Also, the shoe. Years out in the area, and it looks untouched by any animal. The laces of his shoes really are of interest to me too. Perhaps he took off his own shoe, but would he know how to untie the laces? Animals don't. Perhaps his shoe was already untied and he took it off; but still, out there with animals that are being stated to have attacked him or eaten him and that shoe doesn't appear to have any gnaw markings on it at all.

More about the laces. They're pulled loose at the top the way you'd pull them loose just before putting a shoe on or just before taking one off, but even if a three-year-old could untie his shoes and take them off, would he really do that part with the laces? out in the woods? while lost? If an animal were pulling at the laces it seems to me there'd be a lot more fraying going on in that area in particular as well. The laces at the top of his shoe, they're not even matted down from the weather . . . if they got wet then wouldn't they have fallen onto the shoe? And if by some chance LE pulled the laces to look into the toe of the shoe before the picture was taken then I don't see them depressing the tongue back into the shoe before taking the picture.
Click to expand...

It said in one of the articles above that he wore his shoes untied.
 
frisson said:
Wait what? I am new to this thread so please correct me. The hiker group, (Christian singles?) staying at the father's place OFFERED to take a 3 1/2 yr old , unrelated to any of them, on their hike?
Click to expand...

No the group was supposed to take Jaryd and his sister to the fish hatchery nearby, and they later decided to go hiking farther up the road from the hatchery, and they did not get permission from Allyn to do so.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

DNASolves

Who is Escambia County John Doe (1989)?

Members online

... and 177 more.
Total: 3,234 (members: 178, guests: 3,056)

Online statistics

Members online
178
Guests online
3,056
Total visitors
3,234
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
599,898
Messages
18,101,159
Members
230,951
Latest member
Yappychappy
Back
Top