CO - Jessica Ridgeway, 10, Westminster, 5 Oct. 2012 - #23

[Tennlyn]

It's a brilliant idea. The "justice" system would actually be worthy of its name. But we wouldn't want to infringe upon the defendant's rights, now would we....:banghead:

It's a great idea, except imagine how much slower the "justice" system would be with yet another group of attorneys involved! :twocents:

 

[elmomom]

I am hoping that someday the amount of missing and found murdered people will go way down.

We know a lot about what makes people strike out.

Although this article is about borderline personality disorder, it talks about rage

Rage underlies so many issues. If we increase the treatment of rage, we will see a huge decrease in harmful behavior.

http://www.guidetopsychology.com/bpd.htm

Yes! We are inundated with rage in our society - just look at the election sentiments for a quick example - and we need to begin to systematically determine the early stressors, be they biochemical, situational or environmental- and figure out how to decrease the effects. A person who feels powerless, who feels tortured, who feels unfairly treated, these are situations in which rage builds. Not everyone deals with stress by becoming enraged, and we need to figure out how to encourage other outlets, and truly successful therapies.

For the longest time I have felt that the reason there is such a preponderance of acceptable violence in American society - our love affair with guns, violent video games and violence on TV and in the movies e.g. Is NOT responsible for the increase in criminal violence as so many believe. I believe they are the SYMPTOM of a society that is so enraged that they desire acceptable forms of anger outlets in their daily lives.... We are angry. We need to chill. We need to figure out how to do this...

 

[b2alicia]

Way, way off topic...

I guess there are hundreds of factors that influence what kind of man a young boy will grow up into.

There's one factor that I've been thinking about lately - and that is the idea of some kind of "manhood ceremony".

Of growing from a boy, to a healthy man who can be productive in his community.

I grew up in a protestant home, but I've always been impressed with the Jewish custom of bar mitzvah, of celebrating a 12 year old boy's passage toward manhood.

Here's a nice article talking about this very thing.

http://www.soulawakening.org/rediscovering.html

Just food for thought.

 

[otto]

-------------------------

Read the second article referenced to get an understanding of how the trial went.

Here's a novel idea I have: The justice system in this country should be changed so that the Victim(s) also have a Defense Team in addition to the Prosecution Team.

Italian law in the US? I don't think anyone would put up with that.

 

[scorekeeper]

Italian law in the US? I don't think anyone would put up with that.

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

Sorry, found that funny...and I really did need a laugh :floorlaugh:

 

[kkdj]

I have a grandson who seemingly was just born aggressive. His father had served time as a juvenile for assault and battery. His father has never met my grandson.
So, we have believed (and studied) my grandson was born with his aggressive nature. We bought him a small dog when he was 2 and taught him to nurture and love.
My grandson continued to be physically aggressive with people, but loved and nurtured his dog. We disciplined him about his aggression towards others, but it was always an instinct for him to attack. At the age of 8 we put him in football and told him this is where he could tackle, as a game, for his team.
We have certainly worried about his physical aggressiveness and been aware of his fathers history. We have made a concerted effort to direct his born into aggressiveness.
He is now almost 15, loves his dogs, and a star on his football team.
His violent father has never been in his life. We have always believed that if he he had been my grandson would have turned out differently.
My point being, one can be born with certain bad personality traits, and if exposed to the parent that also has the child might very well advance with that bad trait.
However, if they don't have exposure, then they can learn to deal with it effectively.
Not pouncing on anyone, just food for thought.
Jmo

 

[b2alicia]

I have a grandson who seemingly was just born aggressive. His father had served time as a juvenile for assault and battery. His father has never met my grandson.
So, we have believed (and studied) my grandson was born with his aggressive nature. We bought him a small dog when he was 2 and taught him to nurture and love.
My grandson continued to be physically aggressive with people, but loved and nurtured his dog. We disciplined him about his aggression towards others, but it was always an instinct for him to attack. At the age of 8 we put him in football and told him this is where he could tackle, as a game, for his team.
We have certainly worried about his physical aggressiveness and been aware of his fathers history. We have made a concerted effort to direct his born into aggressiveness.
He is now almost 15, loves his dogs, and a star on his football team.
His violent father has never been in his life. We have always believed that if he he had been my grandson would have turned out differently.
My point being, one can be born with certain bad personality traits, and if exposed to the parent that also has the child might very well advance with that bad trait.
However, if they don't have exposure, then they can learn to deal with it effectively.
Not pouncing on anyone, just food for thought.
Jmo

I love that!
What wonderful decisions about the doggie and football.
You helped him find a manageable way to expend all that aggression and energy, and you and your daughter deserve so much credit.
My hat's off to you both!

 

[kkdj]

I love that!
What wonderful decisions about the doggie and football.
You helped him find a manageable way to expend all that aggression and energy, and you and your daughter deserve so much credit.
My hat's off to you both!

Thanks! Love is a mighty strong force!
I forgot to mention he was also diagnosed with ADHD, had side effects to every med they tried.
And I should apologize calling anything born into a "bad" trait. None of my grandsons born into traits are bad. It is who he is and those traits have become filled with love and a great self esteem. He is still aggressive, but tempered, and is quite the leader.
Anyway, my point still being that he was not exposed to his violent father. Otherwise, who knows what would have been acceptable.
Again, not criticizing anybody, but this was a decision made at birth of our grandson, to protect his development into the rest of his life.
Jmo

 

[LotusPawprint]

Way, way off topic...

I guess there are hundreds of factors that influence what kind of man a young boy will grow up into.

There's one factor that I've been thinking about lately - and that is the idea of some kind of "manhood ceremony".

Of growing from a boy, to a healthy man who can be productive in his community.

I grew up in a protestant home, but I've always been impressed with the Jewish custom of bar mitzvah, of celebrating a 12 year old boy's passage toward manhood.

Here's a nice article talking about this very thing.

http://www.soulawakening.org/rediscovering.html

Just food for thought.

That article was very interesting and very on topic, IMO! Thanks for sharing.

Some of what caught my eye and reminded me of ARS, speculative of course based on the little we know:

"It has been estimated that after divorce, 50 percent of adolescents have no contact with their father, 30 percent have sporadic contact, and 20 percent see their dad once a week or more. Truth is, even if our imagined boy's father is still at home, because our society dictates that men spend long hours away from home working, an average dad spends less than a minute a day with his infant son and one hour a day with his adolescent. Research psychologist and Harvard Medical School professor Samuel Osherson, in Finding Our Fathers, says if you average it out, fathers spend approximately ten minutes a day with their children. "A psychological time bomb within the younger generation of men and women now coming of age" Osherson calls it. Alexander Mitscherly has studied fatherless men over the last 30 years. He discovered that when a boy did not see his father work, and did not spend time with this father, a hole, or a space, opened in the boy's psyche. This hole was not filled with a sense of his father being a white knight or a hero. It was filled instead with a sense of demons, of suspiciousness of older men, and of insecurity. The desperation and confusion this boy feels will color his world and his entry into manhood like a veil. Imagine the man he is to become. "

Again, just a possibility. Certainly not pointing the finger at the father or for that matter ONE issue in ARS' life as I think the consensus is there are layers we may never know that made him the monster he became. Just food for thought, like you said.

 

[b2alicia]

That article was very interesting and very on topic, IMO! Thanks for sharing.

Some of what caught my eye and reminded me of ARS, speculative of course based on the little we know:

"It has been estimated that after divorce, 50 percent of adolescents have no contact with their father, 30 percent have sporadic contact, and 20 percent see their dad once a week or more. Truth is, even if our imagined boy's father is still at home, because our society dictates that men spend long hours away from home working, an average dad spends less than a minute a day with his infant son and one hour a day with his adolescent. Research psychologist and Harvard Medical School professor Samuel Osherson, in Finding Our Fathers, says if you average it out, fathers spend approximately ten minutes a day with their children. "A psychological time bomb within the younger generation of men and women now coming of age" Osherson calls it. Alexander Mitscherly has studied fatherless men over the last 30 years. He discovered that when a boy did not see his father work, and did not spend time with this father, a hole, or a space, opened in the boy's psyche. This hole was not filled with a sense of his father being a white knight or a hero. It was filled instead with a sense of demons, of suspiciousness of older men, and of insecurity. The desperation and confusion this boy feels will color his world and his entry into manhood like a veil. Imagine the man he is to become. "

Again, just a possibility. Certainly not pointing the finger at the father or for that matter ONE issue in ARS' life as I think the consensus is there are layers we may never know that made him the monster he became. Just food for thought, like you said.

Hmm, I skimmed over that paragraph and missed that point about an absent father leaving feelings of suspicion and insecurity.
Made me think of little boys whose dads are in the military overseas...what a challenge that must be to foster that "white knight" view when daddy is not home much. Completely different, though, I imagine.

 

[kkdj]

Responsible parenting is a real hot button for me.
Now some on here feel that this subject has nothing to do with the Jessica ridgeway murder and her alleged murderer. I suspect it does. Not trying to criticize though. As I have mentioned before, I am not young, have a large family, lived thru much.
My point being, if we can educate parents and society as to warning signals one might see perhaps we as parents and a society can acknowledge the signs and step in to prevent crimes. Helps everyone.
Jmo

 

[mck16]

I have a grandson who seemingly was just born aggressive. His father had served time as a juvenile for assault and battery. His father has never met my grandson.
So, we have believed (and studied) my grandson was born with his aggressive nature. We bought him a small dog when he was 2 and taught him to nurture and love.
My grandson continued to be physically aggressive with people, but loved and nurtured his dog. We disciplined him about his aggression towards others, but it was always an instinct for him to attack. At the age of 8 we put him in football and told him this is where he could tackle, as a game, for his team.
We have certainly worried about his physical aggressiveness and been aware of his fathers history. We have made a concerted effort to direct his born into aggressiveness.
He is now almost 15, loves his dogs, and a star on his football team.
His violent father has never been in his life. We have always believed that if he he had been my grandson would have turned out differently.
My point being, one can be born with certain bad personality traits, and if exposed to the parent that also has the child might very well advance with that bad trait.
However, if they don't have exposure, then they can learn to deal with it effectively.
Not pouncing on anyone, just food for thought.
Jmo

I totally agree with you. I believe that genetics play a huge role in behaviour of anyone, but I definitely believe environment can influence those behaviours either in a good way or bad way. I think what your family did was excellent and absolutey the only way to channel a person's "traits" either for a positive outcome or a life stumbles. I really applaud you and thanks for posting this. Everyone trying to diagnos AS when I believe it is obvious there are genes in his makeup with the propensity for disregarding the law and good behaviour. Example is of course his dad. AS's problems go way back and now of course are out of control. I could go on forever on this topic, but I won't. Storms are heading into E. Texas. jmo

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

I have a grandson who seemingly was just born aggressive. His father had served time as a juvenile for assault and battery. His father has never met my grandson.
So, we have believed (and studied) my grandson was born with his aggressive nature. We bought him a small dog when he was 2 and taught him to nurture and love.
My grandson continued to be physically aggressive with people, but loved and nurtured his dog. We disciplined him about his aggression towards others, but it was always an instinct for him to attack. At the age of 8 we put him in football and told him this is where he could tackle, as a game, for his team.
We have certainly worried about his physical aggressiveness and been aware of his fathers history. We have made a concerted effort to direct his born into aggressiveness.
He is now almost 15, loves his dogs, and a star on his football team.
His violent father has never been in his life. We have always believed that if he he had been my grandson would have turned out differently.
My point being, one can be born with certain bad personality traits, and if exposed to the parent that also has the child might very well advance with that bad trait.
However, if they don't have exposure, then they can learn to deal with it effectively.
Not pouncing on anyone, just food for thought.
Jmo

Thank you, kkdj. Not only for what you did for your grandson but also for how you are able to explain it in your post. This is the prototype of what we hope for all children ~ troubled or not!

And then we are challenged on the other hand with the unexplainable problem of stellar parents with unmanageable children.

What that there would be one simple answer ~ but thankful for and don't mean to diminish your very loving and important victory!

 

[nikb]

<snipped for space and clarity> However, you know there are some women out there right now, thinking that Sigg may just be their soul mate. It's all so weird.

I know! I am so worried for the girls/women who will undoubtedly be pursuing him. Especially girls he maybe knew a few years ago, who knew him before he was "like this" and think they can help to "fix" him. I'm not just thinking of his former girlfriend, thinking of her, other classmates maybe, neigbhors who used to play games with him... I really hope they have very good support systems in place and people watching out for them closely. IMO he'll probably get a bunch of total stranger "soul mates" as well, but the people who know him seem especially vulnerable to me.

 

[nikb]

I didn't know exactly what post to reply to so I'll just post this separately. I know we're trying to stay more on stories in the news and not so much personal ones, but I just had to share this. I too have a friend whose step-son is very frightening. It's what prompted my earlier response to the original "what would you do?" question, which was "run like he** and feel guilty."

When I first read about ARS this boy came to mind immediately. I knew him even before I knew his stepmom, and I remember when he was born and his bio-Mom would be breastfeeding him he'd be fine, then freak out and bite her hard. When he got old enough to laugh he thought it was hysterical when he bit her hard enough to make her cry. He'd laugh and laugh, then try to eat again. There is some speculation this boy's bio-Mom was on drugs during some or all of her pregnancy (drugs are also part of why bio-Dad left). Maybe he never had a chance, if his brain was messed up before he was even born?

My friend, boy's stepmom since he was young, has worked very hard through the schools to get him help, counselors, tried to get him into activities and such, and she's still trying, but they've found nothing that helps. He gets asked to leave sports teams pretty quickly after the other kids become afraid.

Her husband/his bio-Dad FINALLY acknowledged something was wrong when the kid started walking around mumbling "die, die, die" under his breath. I think that started around age 8, which was only a couple of years after he started talking. Most of the time he keeps to himself but if something catches his attention it's beyond scary. On a short trip with them (which was our last unless the stepson isn't there) he got fixated on one of my dogs. I barely slept, and we came home early. The boy kept glaring at the dog muttering "evil, die." He only physically came after the dog once, with a rock and a stick, and even though I put the dog behind me I had no doubt he'd go through me to get to the dog if he had to. I'm almost positive the boy had waited til he thought it was just me and the dog, that no one was watching him - he was very surprised when my husband stopped him. My husband had been nervous about him too and watching closely, thank goodness.

I don't know ARS. I don't know how he grew up, or was treated, or anything like that, but the kid I mentioned above is the first one I've ever met that convinced me sometimes there is darn near nothing you can do. It breaks my heart, and I consider the boy I described as some type of victim too, but it also breaks my heart wondering if some innocent person is going to end up being a victim of his in the future. What do you do? Lock him up "just in case"? I feel for ARS' Mom and family members. IMO they probably knew something wasn't right and maybe even tried to get help, but ran out of options before he locked in on what he ended up doing (allegedly).

All MOO and personal experience.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

I didn't know exactly what post to reply to so I'll just post this separately. I know we're trying to stay more on stories in the news and not so much personal ones, but I just had to share this. I too have a friend whose step-son is very frightening. It's what prompted my earlier response to the original "what would you do?" question, which was "run like he** and feel guilty."

When I first read about ARS this boy came to mind immediately. I knew him even before I knew his stepmom, and I remember when he was born and his bio-Mom would be breastfeeding him he'd be fine, then freak out and bite her hard. When he got old enough to laugh he thought it was hysterical when he bit her hard enough to make her cry. He'd laugh and laugh, then try to eat again. There is some speculation this boy's bio-Mom was on drugs during some or all of her pregnancy (drugs are also part of why bio-Dad left). Maybe he never had a chance, if his brain was messed up before he was even born?

My friend, boy's stepmom since he was young, has worked very hard through the schools to get him help, counselors, tried to get him into activities and such, and she's still trying, but they've found nothing that helps. He gets asked to leave sports teams pretty quickly after the other kids become afraid.

Her husband/his bio-Dad FINALLY acknowledged something was wrong when the kid started walking around mumbling "die, die, die" under his breath. I think that started around age 8, which was only a couple of years after he started talking. Most of the time he keeps to himself but if something catches his attention it's beyond scary. On a short trip with them (which was our last unless the stepson isn't there) he got fixated on one of my dogs. I barely slept, and we came home early. The boy kept glaring at the dog muttering "evil, die." He only physically came after the dog once, with a rock and a stick, and even though I put the dog behind me I had no doubt he'd go through me to get to the dog if he had to. I'm almost positive the boy had waited til he thought it was just me and the dog, that no one was watching him - he was very surprised when my husband stopped him. My husband had been nervous about him too and watching closely, thank goodness.

I don't know ARS. I don't know how he grew up, or was treated, or anything like that, but the kid I mentioned above is the first one I've ever met that convinced me sometimes there is darn near nothing you can do. It breaks my heart, and I consider the boy I described as some type of victim too, but it also breaks my heart wondering if some innocent person is going to end up being a victim of his in the future. What do you do? Lock him up "just in case"? I feel for ARS' Mom and family members. IMO they probably knew something wasn't right and maybe even tried to get help, but ran out of options before he locked in on what he ended up doing (allegedly).

All MOO and personal experience.

Thank you, nkib, for what you have shared (RBBM); it exemplifies society's everlasting conundrum.

Should we, as a group, hold a person responsible for their actions without consideration of the reasons that this person murdered an innocent?

Momma used to say she was punishing me because of my wrong doing. She knew she had taught me better. She knew I had a brain and knew how to distinguish between right and wrong acting. She never gave me a pass because I'd had a bad day and was in a bad mood, or because my father was overseas fighting the war, or because I was skinny and everyone kicked sand at me, or because my big sister bossed me around too much.

Heck, she didn't care at all why I was misbehaving. She just cared that it was wrong and she was hell-bent on making sure I wouldn't reoffend again. Her simple philosophy was that I could be in a bad mood, missing my dad, be skinny resent my sister ~ and still be good. It was my choice to rise above or indulge myself, as a victim, with pity and self gratification.

IMO, wrong doing is just plain wrong decisions ~ regardless of why. I always have to come back to the history I walked among when I visited Auschwitz. If we, as a society, are willing to excuse perpetrators of their crimes because of something/anything in their background ~ well, then, all of those concentration camp survivors could have had a free pass for any crime they wanted to commit. It's great to study these people if it can lead into any significant prevention methods but aside from that I don't much care about their emotional/moral deprivations.

Victims of historical, emotional circumstances or not, I believe rapists, pedophiles, kidnappers and murderers should be segregated from our society.

 

[Tucarra]

I didn't know exactly what post to reply to so I'll just post this separately. I know we're trying to stay more on stories in the news and not so much personal ones, but I just had to share this. I too have a friend whose step-son is very frightening. It's what prompted my earlier response to the original "what would you do?" question, which was "run like he** and feel guilty."

When I first read about ARS this boy came to mind immediately. I knew him even before I knew his stepmom, and I remember when he was born and his bio-Mom would be breastfeeding him he'd be fine, then freak out and bite her hard. When he got old enough to laugh he thought it was hysterical when he bit her hard enough to make her cry. He'd laugh and laugh, then try to eat again. There is some speculation this boy's bio-Mom was on drugs during some or all of her pregnancy (drugs are also part of why bio-Dad left). Maybe he never had a chance, if his brain was messed up before he was even born?


My friend, boy's stepmom since he was young, has worked very hard through the schools to get him help, counselors, tried to get him into activities and such, and she's still trying, but they've found nothing that helps. He gets asked to leave sports teams pretty quickly after the other kids become afraid.

Her husband/his bio-Dad FINALLY acknowledged something was wrong when the kid started walking around mumbling "die, die, die" under his breath. I think that started around age 8, which was only a couple of years after he started talking. Most of the time he keeps to himself but if something catches his attention it's beyond scary. On a short trip with them (which was our last unless the stepson isn't there) he got fixated on one of my dogs. I barely slept, and we came home early. The boy kept glaring at the dog muttering "evil, die." He only physically came after the dog once, with a rock and a stick, and even though I put the dog behind me I had no doubt he'd go through me to get to the dog if he had to. I'm almost positive the boy had waited til he thought it was just me and the dog, that no one was watching him - he was very surprised when my husband stopped him. My husband had been nervous about him too and watching closely, thank goodness.

I don't know ARS. I don't know how he grew up, or was treated, or anything like that, but the kid I mentioned above is the first one I've ever met that convinced me sometimes there is darn near nothing you can do. It breaks my heart, and I consider the boy I described as some type of victim too, but it also breaks my heart wondering if some innocent person is going to end up being a victim of his in the future. What do you do? Lock him up "just in case"? I feel for ARS' Mom and family members. IMO they probably knew something wasn't right and maybe even tried to get help, but ran out of options before he locked in on what he ended up doing (allegedly).

All MOO and personal experience.

I really believe there is just sometimes "pure evil"...

And you can talk about 'parenting' all day long....and 'parenting' will help with middle-of-the-road issues...

So difficult to know when a child is so far out there that they need serious medications and/or confinement...

If an adult is ever, ever scared or fearful of a child, that's a sign for serious intervention...

It's easier said than done, and as a parent...even more so...

 

[Peazzzer]

I think ARS must have seemed "normal" enough to his mom for her to have him take his little brother to and fro, or that maybe she felt he wouldn't "do" anything to his little brother. I am also wondering how much time he spent with just his little brother alone, mornings before school and evenings. The whole thing just give me the shudders. It's possible....he bullied him or didn't. I wonder how many sleepless nights the mom spends wondering about that.

I want to make it plain that I am no way blaming the mother and I am not sluething the little brother. JMO.

 

[nikb]

Thank you, nkib, for what you have shared (RBBM); it exemplifies society's everlasting conundrum.

Should we, as a group, hold a person responsible for their actions without consideration of the reasons that this person murdered an innocent?

<respectfully snipped for space>

Victims of historical, emotional circumstances or not, I believe rapists, pedophiles, kidnappers and murderers should be segregated from our society.

Thanks for understanding what I meant. It's such a hard question!

This is the first child I've ever seen that I thought seemed, and still seems, nearly un-help-able. It bothers me so much. When the kid's at that point, what do you do when you're a parent, or stepparent, or friend for that matter?

I absolutely think both ARS and my friend's stepson should be held responsible for their actions. The boy I was describing just really doesn't care. Once he started talking his Dad could say something like "don't hit people" and he'd say "OK Dad" while hitting someone, he'd even turn around and say "OK Dad" and continue hitting the person. He just doesn't get it.

The thing that scares me is YES I believe rapists, pedophiles, kidnappers, and murderers should be segregated in some way, absolutely! But what does someone do if they can practically see it coming but the child hasn't yet raped, molested kids, abducted, or killed anyone? Even if you lock them up afterwards they'll have a first victim. That's where my question came from, do you lock them up "just in case" when they're obviously very disturbed? It all makes me very sad.

IMO I feel like ARS' family might've expected it or at least they're not surprised, but until this happened maybe they couldn't keep him as contained as they wanted to? Just thinking and guessing.

 

[Just K]

Earlier we discussed AS's eyes and how they not only seemed vacant/cold/shark-like but also the shape of his eyes. With babies that have been exposed to dangerous chemicals/alcohol/drugs, either intentionally or accidentally/unknowingly, there is often something off about the shape and placement of the eyes. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome is one example of this type of outcome. It comes in varying degrees and images of children and adults with FAS sometimes have similar type eyes as AS.

Some studies show that the aggressive behaviors in FAS become more extreme in the teen years. It will be very interesting to see if the doctors involved in the case opt to do a brain scan on AS.

Not saying he is an FAS child but he does have some facial features, including the nearly non-existent upper lip, that suggest that something is damaged internally in AS.

AS Photo: http://cbsdenver.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/standley-lake-2011.jpg?w=300&h=225