CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #26 *ARREST*

[cluciano63]

A jury notices when a criminal defendant does not testify, despite the 5th Amendment right against self incrimination.

I think most defendants in wrongful death suits are not expecting to win, except maybe corporations...jmo. And many have no $,are already incarcerated, etc...what do they care.

 

[Mercedes]

Does a public defender have the right to decline to defend ?

Yes, one reason could be a conflict of interest.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I have permission from Tricia to post this and she notified the other MODs so please do not report or delete – thanks!

Last week I mentioned on the forum I was going to take my drones to the WP, Divide and Florisasant area to film some of the area to get a little better idea of what we are discussing. I contacted Teller County Parks and Rec just to verify there wasn’t an issue flying out of Memorial which is less than 2 blocks from KB’s place.

Below are links to 360-degree panos of PF’s ranch, KB’s place, 2 of the Pike National forest very close to him so you can see the kind of terrain we are talking about and 1 of Cripple Creek. To view the panos it is better on a tablet or pc/laptop and not a phone due to the size of the screen of a phone but some people view on a phone. On a tablet open the link in your web browser and you should just be able to turn the tablet up, down, left or right to view all around. You can zoom in. On a PC/laptop open the link in a web browser and left click and HOLD THE LEFT MOUSE BUTTON DOWN and drag any direction and let the mouse button up. You can drag in any direction, to zoom in/out use the mouse wheel. You should be able to see unbelievable detail if you have a decent screen/graphics card. Feel free to share the pano links with anyone as they are hosted by the company that assembles my panos and not my cloud.

The street level shots I took with my Gopro as I walked around the front and back of her house to make certain no one was there as you just don't fly a drone, even at 400' over a victim's house if there is evidence the family is there. The images I had to resize to upload so you definitely want to view the panos as they will show you unbelievable detail. Panos are made with between 24-30 hi-res images stitched together.

Here are the pano links…

PF Ranch Pano - Hangar 360 photos from around the world.

Pano of KB's place - Hangar 360 photos from around the world.

Teller County Pike National Forest Pano - Hangar 360 photos from around the world.

Teller County Pike National Forest Pano Backside - Hangar 360 photos from around the world.

Cripple Creek Pano - Hangar 360 photos from around the world.


I am also including some various pictures I took throughout the 2 days I was playing with my drones.

Enjoy

Wow, what an excellent job and TYVM.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I think he is under the influence of himself.

Haa! That made me spew a little I'll be honest

 

[MsBetsy]

Thank you Retired Ricky for the beautiful photos and all your time and effort! <modsnip: quote was repaired>

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Everything looks ominous in retrospect.

The fact remains that this was a “ranch,” and barrels and wheelbarrows would be expected there.

Of course, yes. And now looking at the incredible drone shots by @retiredrickyinCO I think what I saw is still there, more toward the house from the dug up area. I think they are possibly circles of protective fencing around young trees or shrubs, to keep deer from eating them, or maybe stacked tires.

And as @Mom24 pointed out, wheelbarrows are ubiquitous. My yard has several as well (though in the high desert rain is so rare than I often leave mine right-side up). I was merely noticing and pointing out things that I hadn't seen mentioned yet. Definitely not implying anything ominous or specific, other than if LE had dug in the exact area where his burn barrels had been located, I would have found that intriguing. But alas, doesn't appear to have been so.

 

[tmar]

He isn’t confessing, no way.

Surely when his Lawyers speak to PF, presenting the known evidence, when PF responds, they know.
It is for his Lawyers to put doubt into the findings in Court, to have any success.
PF won't do it.
MOO.

 

[MsBetsy]

I think most defendants in wrongful death suits are not expecting to win, except maybe corporations...jmo. And many have no $,are already incarcerated, etc...what do they care.

It's probably just more of an inconvenience and a huge hassle! One more thing to make his life miserable. Imo

 

[MyBelle]

In a civil case, you can still assert your 5th amendment right to not incriminate yourself. The problem with that is that your assertion of the 5th amendment could result in an adverse inference against you in that civil case or another civil case.

In a criminal case, your silence cannot be used against you.

In the Jason Young case, it wasn't that he didn't answer questions or that he asserted the 5th amendment privilege in the civil cases, he never responded to the cases, resulting in default judgments.

His silence and failure to respond should not have been allowed to be used against him in his criminal case, but his lawyers did not properly object when that evidence was offered at his trial. The NC Supreme Court ultimately ruled that by not properly objecting, he had waived the issue.

My point was only that a wrongful death lawsuit was a legal ploy which ultimately resulted in Young losing custody of his daughter.

I know Jason didn't respond to the lawsuit. After Fisher won the wrongful death lawsuit by default--and the presiding judge helpfully referred to Jason as "slayer"--the maternal grandmother initiated a child custody complaint and demanded Young undergo a psych evaluation. Young voluntarily gave custody to his wife's sister at that point.

I think the Berreth's goal is similar and PF's family will not prevail in their quest for child custody. That is fine with me. JMO

 

[srg]

I think oftentimes people assume someone must be a narc bc they are able to have relationships with women (or men) who seem to be more evolved than they are for lack of a better word.

We see someone like KB who seems to be an attractiv, educated, career minded woman and yet she fell for someone who we now see couldn’t have been who she thought he was. There was some sort of mask in place in order for PF to have kept her- MOO.

There are psychopaths and sociopaths who aren’t narcs.

All JMO.

There is a lot of overlap between sociopaths/psychopaths and narcissists. Much depends on what triggered them and what motivates them to step over into the dark side. There is callous manipulation, extreme self-centeredneas, exploitation, and lack of empathy.

Psychopaths: more likely to hurt others for specific purpose (eg get rid of witness). Narcissists: more likely to hurt others when their ego has been hurt (eg in response to “losing face”).

I can see PF fit into both. Alternatively, he might have lived fairly “normal life” until Sept 2018, when he might also have sufferered significant psych issue (like something happened which made him snap). It was in Sept when it was reported he first started soliciting for murder.

Also, personality disorder by default is “pervasive” and long term. It isn’t a sudden change in personality at age 30 or so.

Should maybe mention I’m a PhD clinical psychologist. Not that it makes me qualified to dx PF since he isn’t my client (in which case I’d have zero time to be on WS and speculate and discuss with other fellow WSs)!! I’d feel I was missing out big time

 

[luvhockey]

Thanks so much retiredricky, the like button is not enough!!

 

[Beamer15]

I think most defendants in wrongful death suits are not expecting to win, except maybe corporations...jmo. And many have no $,are already incarcerated, etc...what do they care.

I wondered if her parents filed the wrongful death case prior to his family's estate court date for the death of his dad, that way if PF is entitled to any inheritance it will go straight to KB's parents to take care of K. Just a thought.

 

[Hatch]

There is a lot of overlap between sociopaths/psychopaths and narcissists. Much depends on what triggered them and what motivates them to step over into the dark side. There is callous manipulation, extreme self-centeredneas, exploitation, and lack of empathy.

Psychopaths: more likely to hurt others for specific purpose (eg get rid of witness). Narcissists: more likely to hurt others when their ego has been hurt (eg in response to “losing face”).

I can see PF fit into both. Alternatively, he might have lived fairly “normal life” until Sept 2018, when he might also have sufferered significant psych issue (like something happened which made him snap). It was in Sept when it was reported he first started soliciting for murder.

Also, personality disorder by default is “pervasive” and long term. It isn’t a sudden change in personality at age 30 or so.

Should maybe mention I’m a PhD clinical psychologist. Not that it makes me qualified to dx PF since he isn’t my client (in which case I’d have zero time to be on WS and speculate and discuss with other fellow WSs)!! I’d feel I was missing out big time

Great thx for your expertise.

 

[SoVeryMe]

There is a lot of overlap between sociopaths/psychopaths and narcissists. Much depends on what triggered them and what motivates them to step over into the dark side. There is callous manipulation, extreme self-centeredneas, exploitation, and lack of empathy.

Psychopaths: more likely to hurt others for specific purpose (eg get rid of witness). Narcissists: more likely to hurt others when their ego has been hurt (eg in response to “losing face”).

I can see PF fit into both. Alternatively, he might have lived fairly “normal life” until Sept 2018, when he might also have sufferered significant psych issue (like something happened which made him snap). It was in Sept when it was reported he first started soliciting for murder.

Also, personality disorder by default is “pervasive” and long term. It isn’t a sudden change in personality at age 30 or so.

Should maybe mention I’m a PhD clinical psychologist. Not that it makes me qualified to dx PF since he isn’t my client (in which case I’d have zero time to be on WS and speculate and discuss with other fellow WSs)!! I’d feel I was missing out big time

Thanks for your professional input! You should definitely become verified!!!

Out of the 3 personality types you discussed which would be the most likely to plan a murder and potentially a violent one at that?

 

[MsBetsy]

There is a lot of overlap between sociopaths/psychopaths and narcissists. Much depends on what triggered them and what motivates them to step over into the dark side. There is callous manipulation, extreme self-centeredneas, exploitation, and lack of empathy.

Psychopaths: more likely to hurt others for specific purpose (eg get rid of witness). Narcissists: more likely to hurt others when their ego has been hurt (eg in response to “losing face”).

I can see PF fit into both. Alternatively, he might have lived fairly “normal life” until Sept 2018, when he might also have sufferered significant psych issue (like something happened which made him snap). It was in Sept when it was reported he first started soliciting for murder.

Also, personality disorder by default is “pervasive” and long term. It isn’t a sudden change in personality at age 30 or so.

Should maybe mention I’m a PhD clinical psychologist. Not that it makes me qualified to dx PF since he isn’t my client (in which case I’d have zero time to be on WS and speculate and discuss with other fellow WSs)!! I’d feel I was missing out big time

I don't believe he "snapped" at all, or that there was a significant event that led him to commit murder. The amount of time between the possible solicitation and the murder alone makes me think he was always capable of murder. Imo

 

[susiQ]

House devil, street angel.

Yes, my mother used to say this, in German. Narcs are like that

 

[tmar]

I have permission from Tricia to post this and she notified the other MODs so please do not report or delete – thanks!

Last week I mentioned on the forum I was going to take my drones to the WP, Divide and Florisasant area to film some of the area to get a little better idea of what we are discussing. I contacted Teller County Parks and Rec just to verify there wasn’t an issue flying out of Memorial which is less than 2 blocks from KB’s place.

Below are links to 360-degree panos of PF’s ranch, KB’s place, 2 of the Pike National forest very close to him so you can see the kind of terrain we are talking about and 1 of Cripple Creek. To view the panos it is better on a tablet or pc/laptop and not a phone due to the size of the screen of a phone but some people view on a phone. On a tablet open the link in your web browser and you should just be able to turn the tablet up, down, left or right to view all around. You can zoom in. On a PC/laptop open the link in a web browser and left click and HOLD THE LEFT MOUSE BUTTON DOWN and drag any direction and let the mouse button up. You can drag in any direction, to zoom in/out use the mouse wheel. You should be able to see unbelievable detail if you have a decent screen/graphics card. Feel free to share the pano links with anyone as they are hosted by the company that assembles my panos and not my cloud.

The street level shots I took with my Gopro as I walked around the front and back of her house to make certain no one was there as you just don't fly a drone, even at 400' over a victim's house if there is evidence the family is there. The images I had to resize to upload so you definitely want to view the panos as they will show you unbelievable detail. Panos are made with between 24-30 hi-res images stitched together.

Here are the pano links…

PF Ranch Pano - Hangar 360 photos from around the world.

Pano of KB's place - Hangar 360 photos from around the world.

Teller County Pike National Forest Pano - Hangar 360 photos from around the world.

Teller County Pike National Forest Pano Backside - Hangar 360 photos from around the world.

Cripple Creek Pano - Hangar 360 photos from around the world.


I am also including some various pictures I took throughout the 2 days I was playing with my drones.

Enjoy

Wow how wonderful on my laptop.
I feel as if I am at the movies, having screens all around me.
No wonder, it will be a major problem, locating Kelsey's body, as it really could be anywhere.
Hope LE have specific evidence, regarding Kelsey being removed from her home.
MOO.

 

[girlhasnoname]

There is a lot of overlap between sociopaths/psychopaths and narcissists. Much depends on what triggered them and what motivates them to step over into the dark side. There is callous manipulation, extreme self-centeredneas, exploitation, and lack of empathy.

Psychopaths: more likely to hurt others for specific purpose (eg get rid of witness). Narcissists: more likely to hurt others when their ego has been hurt (eg in response to “losing face”).

I can see PF fit into both. Alternatively, he might have lived fairly “normal life” until Sept 2018, when he might also have sufferered significant psych issue (like something happened which made him snap). It was in Sept when it was reported he first started soliciting for murder.

Also, personality disorder by default is “pervasive” and long term. It isn’t a sudden change in personality at age 30 or so.

Should maybe mention I’m a PhD clinical psychologist. Not that it makes me qualified to dx PF since he isn’t my client (in which case I’d have zero time to be on WS and speculate and discuss with other fellow WSs)!! I’d feel I was missing out big time

Very interesting information tyvm. Aren't signs of BPD, NPD, psychopathy etc. traits displayed by age 18 generally? If so, I would love to see how PF fared in school.

There was a classmate who was interviewed and quoted as saying "Patrick was Patrick" when asked about how PF was in school. That seems like a fairly odd statement to me.

 

[Peppermint Patty]

I don't believe he "snapped" at all, or that there was a significant event that led him to commit murder. The amount of time between the possible solicitation and the murder alone makes me think he was always capable of murder. Imo

I think what SRG is pointing out is that he likely has a personality disorder that has been somewhat dormant if you will. The word snapped could also be a reference to something triggered him. It's possible the death of his father was that trigger. IMO.

edited to also say: please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I don't believe he "snapped" at all, or that there was a significant event that led him to commit murder. The amount of time between the possible solicitation and the murder alone makes me think he was always capable of murder. Imo

Yes, 3 months of planning excludes a snapped moment in my book also.