CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #33 *ARREST*

[Spartygirl]

Hi Everyone,

Please join me in welcoming srg as our new verified Clinical Psychologist.
Tricia

Thank you and Welcome SRG for being here !!! We look forward to your thoughts and insight !!

 

[Dave F.]

I'm thinking the low temps will preserve what's there. I remember someone detailing the temp under a pile but can't remember if they said it would be colder or warmer. Anyone remember?

In general, the layers of dirt down to bedrock will be slightly warmer than the average annual surface temperature, simply because the soil has living organisms in that produce heat. For it to freeze very deeply, there has to be very cold o n the surface for an unbroken period of ten days. Southern Colorado rarely sees those deep cold conditions. That is not to say it's weather that anyone likes to work in. There is always at least a steady breeze in the Fountain area, and winter storms can bring steady winds strong enough to drive the wind chill factor down to dangerous levels. IMO

 

[Dave F.]

I think they’ve essentially got “two legs of the stool” here.

Forensic and digital evidence.

Statements and corroborating information (of this account) from a third party.

I hope the DA hits him hard with this proverbial stool.

Kelsey Schelling was last seen February 4, 2013. The court has hearing dates blocked out through December, but no trial date has been set. In late December 2018, the prosecutor told reporters he hoped to have it in trial by December 2019. On January 14th, attorneys for Donthe Lucas filed a new motion, changing his defense to accuse the victim's father of the murder. The witness list is well over 300 people, so the trial will drag on for months once it starts. IMO

 

[jewelsmac]

You're right, and it's scary. What's really frightening IMO is that most people aren't even concerned about protecting their privacy any more. They're perfectly comfortable with all of their personal info being out there full frontal and flapping in the breeze for everyone to see.

Down with Big Brother.
Down with Big Brother.
Down with Big Brother.

JMO.

too true... However, let me fly my “hypocrite” flag because I’m sure most of us on here are glad when people act a fool and get caught on camera, and end up in jail.

 

[jewelsmac]

I think they’ve essentially got “two legs of the stool” here.

Forensic and digital evidence.

Statements and corroborating information (of this account) from a third party.

I hope the DA hits him hard with this proverbial stool.

Love the visual

 

[MassGuy]

Kelsey Schelling was last seen February 4, 2013. The court has hearing dates blocked out through December, but no trial date has been set. In late December 2018, the prosecutor told reporters he hoped to have it in trial by December 2019. On January 14th, attorneys for Donthe Lewis filed a new motion, changing his defense to accuse The victim's father of the murder. The witness list is well over 300 people, so the trial will drag on for months once it starts. IMO

Yup. It took four years until an arrest was made, and that case looks like it’s going to be contingent upon the testimony of numerous people.

On the flip side, PF was arrested in a matter of a couple weeks.

That does not bode well for him at all.

 

[jewelsmac]

Colorado's Kelsey Schelling murder (no body) will be tried later this year.

Expert: No-body murder cases can be tried successfully

“The interesting thing about no-body cases is, yes, they are very difficult to prosecute. But when they do go to trial, the conviction rate is actually quite high. Right now, it’s running at about 88 percent,” said Tad DiBiase, who successfully prosecuted a no-body murder case tried in Washington, D.C., in January 2006 when he worked as an Assistant U.S. Attorney. “So that seems very counter-intuitive because they’re really difficult to do.”
[...]
“There are two reasons why the conviction rate is still pretty high in these cases. No. 1, prosecutors are only going to take the tough cases to trial; they’re not going to take a shaky missing persons case to trial,” DiBiase said. “And the second thing is, about 50-51 percent of no-body cases are actually domestic cases.

“So, typically, husband kills wife, boyfriend kills girlfriend, parent kills child; there’s usually a pre-existing relationship between the two people. The suspect becomes very obvious in those cases, though it doesn’t always mean it’s that person.”
[...]
DiBiase said a body is the most critical piece of evidence in a murder case, but prosecutors can present other evidence to get a conviction.

“The body gives you how the murder happened -- Was it a poisoning? Was it a shooting? Was it a strangling? It typically gives you when it happened and it also can tell you where the murder happened,” DiBiase said.

The main way in which no-body cases are made are through what DiBiase calls the three legs of a stool.

The first leg, he said, is some type of forensic evidence such as DNA or blood.

“It can also be trace evidence. It can be hair or fiber, maybe fingerprints. Some type of scientific evidence is leg No. 1,” DiBiase said.

Leg No. 2 is a confession to friends or family. And leg No. 3 is a confession to police.

“Most no-body cases are made with that kind of evidence,” DiBiase said. “Some only have one leg. The case I tried had all three. And some have none of them and those are the toughest cases. You generally don’t have eyewitnesses. They’re not filmed or anything or that type of stuff. You generally have one of those types of things.”

So, we are thinking in KB case that LE found some kind of biological evidence, something that would prove she could not possibly have survived what ever created that evidence, and that’s what brought about arrest and murder charge. It couldn’t have been a large amount of blood correct? Because they had already been in her home and they had not seen that is that correct? Or am I making this up as I go along?

 

[GordianKnot]

Love the visual

Well, now you've got me wondering: is there such a thing as a 3-legged tire iron?

Because I actually prefer the visual of clobbering PF with a proverbial tire iron vs. a rickety stool.

JMO.

 

[jewelsmac]

So, we are thinking in KB case that LE found some kind of biological evidence, something that would prove she could not possibly have survived what ever created that evidence, and that’s what brought about arrest and murder charge. It couldn’t have been a large amount of blood correct? Because they had already been in her home and they had not seen that is that correct? Or am I making this up as I go along?

and I would imagine that would most likely be brain matter..yes?

 

[WildcatRunner]

and I would imagine that would most likely be brain matter..yes?

A large quantity of blood would do it too. ETA- The original post said they didn't see blood. They would have also had to have missed brain matter. Blood in a bathtub drain, or maybe even on dark carpet. You figure a few pints of blood and you're not going to live. You could attempt to clean up a few pints of liquid off a dark carpet or a mattress with a clean sheet over it, and maybe disguise it if you weren't searching for it.

 

[jewelsmac]

Yup. It took four years until an arrest was made, and that case looks like it’s going to be contingent upon the testimony of numerous people.

On the flip side, PF was arrested in a matter of a couple weeks.

That does not bode well for him at all.

Sometimes it just feels like these things get dragged out so witness give up, move away or die

 

[MassGuy]

So, we are thinking in KB case that LE found some kind of biological evidence, something that would prove she could not possibly have survived what ever created that evidence, and that’s what brought about arrest and murder charge. It couldn’t have been a large amount of blood correct? Because they had already been in her home and they had not seen that is that correct? Or am I making this up as I go along?

I don’t think you’re off.

I firmly believe they found something that indicates that she is dead.

Now that could be a few things:

Brain matter.

Blood in extreme quantities (I can’t imagine they would have missed this initially).

Blood splatter (found) that is backed up by witness statements. Something like:

“He said he beat her to death and blood ended up on the wall or ceiling. He said he attempted to clean it up.”

 

[jewelsmac]

A large quantity of blood would do it too.

I agree, but wasnt there mention that if that was the case it would have been noticed the first time LE was there?

 

[Dave F.]

Yup. It took four years until an arrest was made, and that case looks like it’s going to be contingent upon the testimony of numerous people.

On the flip side, PF was arrested in a matter of a couple weeks.

That does not bode well for him at all.

I don't mean to be picky, but I believe Donthe Lucas was arrested just days after the disappearance, on other felony charges. He was still in jail on those charges when they charged him with murder, six months later. He has spent 5 1/2 years in jail so far, and has the better part of another year before trial delivers a verdict. IMO

 

[jewelsmac]

A large quantity of blood would do it too. ETA- The original post said they didn't see blood. They would have also had to have missed brain matter. Blood in a bathtub drain, or maybe even on dark carpet. You figure a few pints of blood and you're not going to live. You could attempt to clean up a few pints of liquid off a dark carpet or a mattress with a clean sheet over it, and maybe disguise it if you weren't searching for it.

yep, true if it was just a well check or quick scan through the house, that is possible.

 

[WildcatRunner]

yep, true if it was just a well check or quick scan through the house, that is possible.

That's how I envision it. They weren't looking for anything that sinister yet.

 

[GordianKnot]

Yup. It took four years until an arrest was made, and that case looks like it’s going to be contingent upon the testimony of numerous people.

On the flip side, PF was arrested in a matter of a couple weeks.

That does not bode well for him at all.

Ah, indeed it doesn't.

The February 19 prob cause hearing may leave us all speechless once we get a glimpse of just how incredibly asinine PF really is.

I don’t think you’re off.

I firmly believe they found something that indicates that she is dead.

Now that could be a few things:

Brain matter.

Blood in extreme quantities (I can’t imagine they would have missed this initially).

Blood splatter (found) that is backed up by witness statements. Something like:

“He said he beat her to death and blood ended up on the wall or ceiling. He said he attempted to clean it up.”

Yes. This completely jives with what @riolove77 was saying on this thread a while back re: what evidence she would want/need as a prosecutor to bring a Murder 1 charge in a no body case.

 

[Hatfield]

I agree. PF will never give up KB’s body.

......snipped by me for focus.....

And circling back to this case, it’s funny that we have all come to have such a strong sense of PF’s personality, that we also feel sure he will never give up the location of Kelsey’s body. Hopefully, we are wrong. And one day...

MOO

JMO
I agree he will never talk about what he did with KB's body.

My first impression of PF was two things I saw videos of him and they were more than enough for me to assess a couple things about him.

The one where he was at his fence and the reporter was trying to ask him questions and the look he gave that reporter and his lock jaw he had told me he will never ever tell where KB's body is.

The 2nd impression I got of him was when he was holding the baby like a rag doll while getting in his truck and Im sorry but that told me he has no clue how to properly hold a baby and I will even go a step further and say that he probably didnt hold the baby much himself. Im guessing he had his Mom or KB watching the child most all the time.

I may be wrong with my first impressions but they sure gave me bad vibes about this murderer.

 

[MassGuy]

I don't mean to be picky, but I believe Donthe Lucas was arrested just days after the disappearance, on other felony charges. He was still in jail on those charges when they charged him with murder, six months later. He has spent 5 1/2 years in jail so far, and has the better part of another year before trial delivers a verdict. IMO

These are completely different cases involving very different circumstances and evidence.

I don’t care what state it is, a “no body murder case” is typically slow moving.

The Schelling case, is indicative of the norm.

This particular case is spectacularly unusual. It appears that this genius left a trail of breadcrumbs right to his door.

Donthe Lucas is in big trouble.

Patrick Frazee appears to be dead to rights.

Good.

 

[TheVic]

Just something I noticed when I went to Sonic here in Woodland Park the other day: there are TWO cameras pointed directly at the drive thru. It isn't discreet. I was really surprised KKL would go there, with not one but two cameras pointed directly at the car at the drive thru window.

It is my opinion that KK isn't smart enough to put that together in her mind. She probably just sees the camera as a preventative device for robbery of sonic etc., which she would never do, so she doesn't really worry about it. She probably did not ponder the implications of using a cc at sonic, placing her right near a crime scene... if that is actually what happened. I am confused about the whole sonic thing.