CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #5

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
I wonder if he provides childcare rather than contribute to the cost of daycare. Kelsey's mom told us that they had plans to get a home together but were unable to do so due to the economy (cattle prices). Maybe they were just trying to save money? MOO

That is what it sounds like to me. He was a rancher so he would be at home. I have heard others say that he lived with his parents, so he would have had them to look after her as well. Childcare is very expensive, and generally the parents are going to also be more attentive and give them more one-on-one attention. Also, some childcare centers want you to pick the children up around 6 pm or so, and either charge a far more expensive price, or eliminate you as a customer if you cannot abide by that. It sounds like her hours were not so flexible to ensure that she would always be there at a certain time. Having dad and grandparents would have been more convenient, less expensive, and would provide more attentive care for such a young child.
 
The CBI and FBI and local police have multiple people - professionals - working on the case. They work as large groups, small groups and as individuals.

It is not a missed opportunity. To risk the integrity of a case by publicizing sensitive information in the off chance that certain well- informed amateurs will be able to assist would be ridiculous and the thought that they should do so sounds like hubris, IMO.

I often agree with a lot of what you say, but can’t agree here. I never said they should post sensitive information. But what I did mean, was that completely ignoring public groups like WS, and holding back from releasing non-sensitive information, COULD be a missed opportunity. Take Natalie Bollinger’s case. Her killer was deep into anime life online. While they may have realized that, perhaps someone here could have quickly put together a theory or links based on their own anime involvement.

Respectfully, I’d appreciate if you didn’t call my suggestions “hubris”. There isn’t need for that.
 
This would be understandable. I would rather have the father watch the child than a childcare facility.
And that leads me to believe with her busy work schedule maybe he didn't hear from her especially if they broke up!
 
I wonder if he provides childcare rather than contribute to the cost of daycare. Kelsey's mom told us that they had plans to get a home together but were unable to do so due to the economy (cattle prices). Maybe they were just trying to save money? MOO
That is what it sounds like to me. He was a rancher so he would be at home. I have heard others say that he lived with his parents, so he would have had them to look after her as well. Childcare is very expensive, and generally the parents are going to also be more attentive and give them more one-on-one attention. Also, some childcare centers want you to pick the children up around 6 pm or so, and either charge a far more expensive price, or eliminate you as a customer if you cannot abide by that. It sounds like her hours were not so flexible to ensure that she would always be there at a certain time. Having dad and grandparents would have been more convenient, less expensive, and would provide more attentive attention for such a young child.
 
Thank you for the well written response. What you posted makes a lot of sense. I would never advocate nor do I see others on this board advocate the release of material evidence in a case. When they do it gets pointed out rather quickly.

The police work for us. It isnt about what they want. Its about whats best for society. The police are given a lot of power by society. Secrecy is the enemy of accountability. This case is an example how holding back information by the police can adversely affect a case as well as society as a whole. Up until yesterday we all believed PF was cooperating. Or at least thats how LE was describing their interactions with him. Then the white hot focus of the national media intensifies (websleuths is a form of media) and out comes the truth. Even though LE actually have yet to personally interview PF they have described him as cooperative. Yesterday they had to artfully walk that back. How many people who had information regarding PF decided not to get involved because LE represented PF's actions as cooperation? The counter argument by LE would be they intentionally misled the public to give PF a feeling he wasn't a suspect. Then they put him under surveillance with the hope he would lead them to KB or otherwise make a mistake. Only time will tell if they had him under surveillance. But without the media asking questions we'll never know.

With respect, no. Absolutely not. This case is not at all an example of how holding back info can adversely affect a case or society as a whole.

They have their reasons. Investigations are necessarily secret and must remain so for them to be effective, until the time of trial.

I don't think anyone with crucial information held it back because they thought PF was cooperating. And they didn't have to artfully walk back anything.

This is about strategy. They had their reasons for not screeching publicly about what PF was coooperaring with or what he wasn't. Same reasons why they've told her relations to not say anything negative.

They typically do that in the hopes that the perp will let down their guard and give more info. When it is apparent he or she will not, they sometimes change their tune.

There are occasions when LE isn't doing a great job. There are typically indications when that happens. I've seen none here. And we have multiple, extremely effective agencies on the case. The thought that random people in the public know better than these professional agencies is silly, IMO.

In every case I read these criticisms that LE doesn't really know what it's doing, that it needs to release sensitive info to a public that thinks it knows better, etc.

I find that to be quite illogical.

You know who solved the Natalie Bollinger case in less than two months? Not a true crime buff. LE did.

In fact, not one member of the curious public (including me), came anywhere close. That example proves the exact opposite of your point.
 
I’m wondering when they will release info on when she last used her credit card...if her last purchase was at Safeway why not state that already? Could that mean there was activity on her card after Safeway? Don’t they usually say when the person last used their card to help establish timeline?
 
It would be for me as well. However, KB lived in a small home, and I believe her brother said 'suitcases' (plural). So it may be different for her. To me, the cars are a bigger clue - and the rolls. You leave the rolls out long enough to cool and then you cover them.

Another thought that occurred to me is that if she decided to visit family, she would more likely have brought her daughter. Yes, people will say it's hard to travel with a toddler. But I say, the grandparents would want to see their grandchild who they rarely get to see.
Some grandparents yes some no!
 
She did not have family there. Her family lives way up in the Idaho panhandle, a few hours from the Canadian border. If she was driving to see them, she would go up through Colorado, Wyoming, and Montana.
Gooding is way down in south central Idaho, a few hours from Nevada. There would be no reason to go that way if she was driving to the Sandpoint area in north Idaho.

You are right about the peculiar geography of ID, I think of it as the state bordering WA, but it is so much spread from N to S and borders so many states.

If I am not mistaken, Sandpoint grew as a haven for people who could not afford the rising cost of living in WA, but still wanted to raise their kids in a good school district. It has good schools, decent medical services, but the houses, at least recently, were twice as cheap as in similar communities in WA. You will read about "wealth flowing East" from the West Coast and vise versa, as such communities now you can find in Nevada, Wyoming and Colorado. (Nothing pertinent to this case).

But it seems that if anything, KB's ties should have been to WA. Her parents used to live in Eastern WA, her brother lives in Tacoma. Her old school and church are in WA.

So one might try to look where the road from Gooding leads to. I doubt she would plan to go to her parents, otherwise, they'd know. But somewhere in Eastern WA? Quite possible.
 
It would be for me as well. However, KB lived in a small home, and I believe her brother said 'suitcases' (plural). So it may be different for her. To me, the cars are a bigger clue - and the rolls. You leave the rolls out long enough to cool and then you cover them.

Another thought that occurred to me is that if she decided to visit family, she would more likely have brought her daughter. Yes, people will say it's hard to travel with a toddler. But I say, the grandparents would want to see their grandchild who they rarely get to see.
One thing that I have wondered about on the rolls was whethered they had been baked or they had been left on the stove to rise before baking. "Cold rolls" made me think they were rising and never got to the point of being baked.
 
I want to know more about the cinnamon rolls!

Do we know for sure that she baked them?

Is it possible someone brought them to her?

And, were they the pre-made type, where you just throw ‘em in the oven, or were they made from scratch?
 
I don't really see getting a lawyer as particularly suspicious in and of itself; it's usually the prudent thing to do. Especially in cases that are likely to have a lot of media scrutiny. What I don't like is the fact that PF never bothered to report KB missing. That's the part that bothers me the most.

People confuse "prudent" with "typical". Something may be very smart to do. Like getting life insurance. Then there's human nature and what decisions mean.

If an attorney is telling someone not to talk to LE about their whereabouts during the crucial time AND THE CLIENT listens, there could be a sinister reason for that.

Most normal people who have a friend or loved one suddenly disappear, don't lawyer up and refuse to answer important questions. They just don't.

It doesn't have anything to do with practicalities. It has to do with how innocent people tend to act.
 
I seem to remember from another case that the height of the drone’s flight is the determining factor. I believe after a certain height, it’s considered public airspace/public view and wouldn’t require a warrant. I could be wrong though.
It depends on what the intent was. If it was an attempt by law enforcement to look into a location that they would otherwise need a warrant then I can't imagine that a court would entertain that as valid. That would indicate law enforcement knowingly acting to evade a warrant requirement and worse doing so knowing they lacked probable cause in doing so or otherwise they would have obtained one.

That said, law enforcement has been known to use something called "parallel construction". This is where they somehow obtain evidence without a warrant where a warrant would have been required. What they do is investigate from that evidence to create another path to that evidence that they will "discover" later and follow that path - that they already know since they created it - that builds a probable cause for obtaining the proper warrants, that they needed originally, and then "find" the evidence that they already knew or have in their possession.

The easiest way, if it is plausible (depends on the nature of the case), is to go to a known confidential informant and have the CI make an anonymous tip using the information law enforcement provided to them that sets the ball in motion. Another technique is a "moving violation" that just so happens to occur within observation of an officer that sets the ball in motion. From all appearances it would look like a regular law enforcement investigation and valid Constitutional process, and no one would be the wiser.

"Parallel construction" also has other uses. In particular, law enforcement may use such techniques to avoid disclosing that they have a CI supplying them information or to protect the identity of a witness that would otherwise become known and have to testify or to protect some technology or technique that they would not want known - basically "sources and methods". This often occurs in counter-espionage cases where you would not want your adversary to know the true way they had been discovered.
 
Thought popped into my mind after reading this article:
A Missing Colorado Mom Sent Texts 3 Days After Her Disappearance

The statement about a clue being found in a baked good. What if she served cinnamon rolls to PF and he was at her house, the plate and fork he ate with has his DNA (hence the DNA sample). This doesn't match his "exchange" story that he met her somewhere.

From the article:
The news conference was held on Dec. 10, but the Facebook page dedicated to updating the public on the case was created by loved ones on Dec. 5.

And after she was reported missing by her mother on Dec. 2, the police searched her apartment, where they found both of her vehicles, her toothbrush, and a possible clue in a baked good
.
 
bbm
I remember that's what you said in the Mollie Tibbets case.

And with that LE now has the opportunity and plenty of resources to find if there’s any reason to suspect that PF is involved. I don’t suspect PF at all until / unless there’s evidence to support that suspicion.

And to be real honest, at this point I’m skeptical that there’s even a crime to investigate.
 
I’m wondering when they will release info on when she last used her credit card...if her last purchase was at Safeway why not state that already? Could that mean there was activity on her card after Safeway? Don’t they usually say when the person last used their card to help establish timeline?
LE's goal is to find Kelsey and apprehend the perpetrator of any crime committed against her. They are not going to release information about an active investigation unless it is helpful in furthering that goal.

For instance, let's say they discover that her debit card was used at a gas station in Colorado Springs on 11/24. Then I would expect to see a request from the WPPD for camera footage in the area, witnesses to come forward who were at that location on that day and time, etc.

Otherwise, there is no reason to share that sort of information with the public. They already have a timeline -it is standard operating procedure - and they continue to investigate and add more information as it is discovered. It is not the public's job to establish a timeline.
MOO
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
91
Guests online
2,700
Total visitors
2,791

Forum statistics

Threads
601,661
Messages
18,127,878
Members
231,119
Latest member
MomuSJ
Back
Top