CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #50 *ARREST*

[Hatch]

Yes, I never have understood this. Is night watch typical in ranching?

Yes Yes Yes , during certain times of the year. Putting out extra food if bad weather is coming etc.

 

[Noharg]

Yes Yes Yes , during certain times of the year. Putting out extra food if bad weather is coming etc.

Thank you. I didn’t think about that.

 

[Julia966]

well his heifers could have been calving, or maybe aborting which is common when they eat pine needles ( which is like cow candy) they get pine needle fever and abort their calves. Sometimes you can inject them with meds to stop the abort process sometimes it works and sometimes it does not. My understanding his herd were over 100 miles from his home and in rugged territory that would take a while. Adding cattle are easier to work and deal with at night they are calmer. But I do think it entered his mind to do his deed that night , but something stopped him.
In calving season it is not uncommon to be up all night.
Calves are your pay check. Fall is when most of them get pine needle fever according to my source.

Aww, jeez, poor cows

And thanks for the info! I figured it could have gone either way: he intended to kill her that night, or there was a cattle issue that she joined him on, or both.

 

[Hatch]

Thank you. I didn’t think about that.

We know from CB she talked to Kelsey at 9:00 am so she most likely was up, if I remember correctly KB text PF at 9:15, asking "are you up yet?" And then a text following in a few minutes saying "call us when you get up" So PF seems to have gotten to sleep in.

 

[katydid23]

I bet he was tempted to kill her that night. But it would have been very stupid. Even stupider than his ultimate plan.

The next morning was a big holiday. He knew people would be expecting to hear from her then. She would have been declared missing way too early and could have been too easily trace back to him. JMO

 

[ajaylee]

PF also burned a bunch of wood. Wood leaves ashes. PF would have had to have thrown water on the ashes if he moved them within a few hours. The nurse may not have been around when he moved them.

I don't think PF intended to completely cremate the remains. I think he intended to damage or destroy as much evidence as he could and reduce the physical remains that would have to be 'scooped' up and disposed of elsewhere.

It's really no different than burning a huge pile of yard waste (where it's legal) so you have a much smaller pile to bury or haul away.

I don't know how much the remains of a human weigh after burned for hours, but water loss alone would account for weight loss and smaller size. (Sorry to be graphic).

In short, I think he would have had a relatively small and easily managed pile of remains to deal with, whether he was going to conceal them or further destroy them.

 

[1mtroyal]

Yes, I never have understood this. Is night watch typical in ranching?

It seems unusual to me, also. During calving, some ranchers might go out off and on to check for calving problems at night, but 99% of ranchers aren't calving around Thanksgiving. I don't know if PF had started winter feeding yet, but that only takes generally less than an hour to roll out a bale or two of hay. If there was a well problem, that might take a while. I don't think we know when the trip to the cattle started, but with the two not getting along and this was the last day of the flight instructor's life, it seems unusual, maybe some sort of premeditated psychological calculated calm before the storm. ( More pulling the wool "sweater" over her eyes.)

 

[ajaylee]

We know from CB she talked to Kelsey at 9:00 am so she most likely was up, if I remember correctly KB text PF at 9:15, asking "are you up yet?" And then a text following in a few minutes saying "call us when you get up" So PF seems to have gotten to sleep in.

Or PF was already awake. If late nights attending to the herd are a normal thing, PF will have become accustomed to going long stretches without sleep. Actually, that might be one reason why KK handled the long drives so well. I know an ER nurse who has worked 12-hour shifts for years, and it just occurred to me that she can drive insane distances, way more than I could.

PF might have been awake and choosing to ignore her text.

 

[Hatch]

I bet he was tempted to kill her that night. But it would have been very stupid. Even stupider than his ultimate plan.

The next morning was a big holiday. He knew people would be expecting to hear from her then. She would have been declared missing way too early and could have been too easily trace back to him. JMO

Thanksgiving being a real big day for most was absolutely the dumbest time to do what he did. Family calling etc. unless he testifies( which I doubt) and tells the truth ( which whatever he says we will not believe it ) unless it correlated when KK had a few days off . With all that said,I think PF or SF will want to have their say and tell what a horrible person KB was, I cannot imagine him telling vile lies about KB for months to whomever would listen, and PF or his Mom not wanting to tell " Here's the story" once again.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

It seems unusual to me, also. During calving, some ranchers might go out off and on to check for calving problems at night, but 99% of ranchers aren't calving around Thanksgiving. I don't know if PF had started winter feeding yet, but that only takes generally less than an hour to roll out a bale or two of hay. If there was a well problem, that might take a while. I don't think we know when the trip to the cattle started, but with the two not getting along and this was the last day of the flight instructor's life, it seems unusual, maybe some sort of premeditated psychological calculated calm before the storm. ( More pulling the wool "sweater" over her eyes.)

Remember that the herd was apparently around 100 miles away. So quite a bit of driving time before and after whatever the actual task was.

 

[Hatch]

I don't think PF intended to completely cremate the remains. I think he intended to damage or destroy as much evidence as he could and reduce the physical remains that would have to be 'scooped' up and disposed of elsewhere.

It's really no different than burning a huge pile of yard waste (where it's legal) so you have a much smaller pile to bury or haul away.

I don't know how much the remains of a human weigh after burned for hours, but water loss alone would account for weight loss and smaller size. (Sorry to be graphic).

In short, I think he would have had a relatively small and easily managed pile of remains to deal with, whether he was going to conceal them or further destroy them.

Bone weight is 15% of your total body weight, so if KB weight 110 lbs her skeletal remains would have weighed 16.5 and that is figuring still with marrow intact. He may have had another 15-20 lbs of residuals left. So under 50 lbs of remains were possible left on the high side. I hated looking that up connected with KB.

 

[Hatch]

Remember that the herd was apparently around 100 miles away. So quite a bit of driving time before and after whatever the actual task was.

I definitely would lean more towards Putting out feed unless he had some sick cattle.

 

[Hatch]

It seems unusual to me, also. During calving, some ranchers might go out off and on to check for calving problems at night, but 99% of ranchers aren't calving around Thanksgiving. I don't know if PF had started winter feeding yet, but that only takes generally less than an hour to roll out a bale or two of hay. If there was a well problem, that might take a while. I don't think we know when the trip to the cattle started, but with the two not getting along and this was the last day of the flight instructor's life, it seems unusual, maybe some sort of premeditated psychological calculated calm before the storm. ( More pulling the wool "sweater" over her eyes.)

I believe from the cattle sale it stated his cows were 3-5 months bred, so no calving but possible complications . Most likely he was getting everything fed so he did not have to go feed on Thanksgiving Day. We all know what his plans were for that day.

 

[SandyQLS]

Fifth Amendment Right Against Self-Incrimination - FindLaw

Can Any Witness Plead the Fifth?

At a criminal trial, it is not only the defendant who enjoys the Fifth Amendment right not to testify. Witnesses who are called to the witness stand can refuse to answer certain questions if answering would implicate them in any type of criminal activity (not limited to the case being tried). Witnesses (as well as defendants) in organized crime trials often plead the Fifth, for instance.

But unlike defendants, witnesses who assert this right may do so selectively and do not waive their rights the moment they begin answering questions. Also, unlike defendants, witnesses may be forced by law to testify (typically by subpoena)

The bottom part you bolded only means that a witness can be forced to testify by subpeona, so they take the stand and plead the 5th amendment. The bolded part does not mean they must answer in some fashion other than the 5th. The context you quoted is in comparison to the defendant, who is never required to take the stand to testify, but may do so if they choose.

 

[kkdj]

The bottom part you bolded only means that a witness can be forced to testify by subpeona, so they take the stand and plead the 5th amendment. The bolded part does not mean they must answer in some fashion other than the 5th. The context you quoted is in comparison to the defendant, who is never required to take the stand to testify, but may do so if they choose.

I feel certain that PF won't take the stand, but if his mother is forced to and pleads the 5th doesn't that also make her suspect of at least knowledge of something in the juries mind? I would think it would say very loudly to the Jury that she won't speak in order to protect her son.

 

[SandyQLS]

What does this even have to do with the Anthony case?

the murder of a child vs the murder of a young mother.

One was murdered by the victims own mother!

Two totally different cases.

So the connection is that in your opinion the two cases are connected bc the jury will have doubt.........

Well, agree to disagree

What does this case have to do with the Watts case? Colorado? Yet CW has been mentioned in literally hundreds of posts at this point. The poster was specifically addressing the issues of the Anthony jury. I found the information useful since most people believe Anthony was guilty, yet the jury returned a complete acquittal. WS is a discussion, not an echo chamber. If posters are certain PF is guilty, like they believed Anthony is guilty, how do you avoid such an acquittal?

 

[MassGuy]

What does this case have to do with the Watts case? Colorado? Yet CW has been mentioned in literally hundreds of posts at this point. The poster was specifically addressing the issues of the Anthony jury. I found the information useful since most people believe Anthony was guilty, yet the jury returned a complete acquittal. WS is a discussion, not an echo chamber. If posters are certain PF is guilty, like they believed Anthony is guilty, how do you avoid such an acquittal?

Yes. The Watts case keeps coming up because of the fact that both murders occurred in the same state.

We known a lot about Colorado law as a result.

This case has far more evidence than the Casey Anthony case, it’s not even remotely comparable.

We can thank PF for that.

 

[LietKynes]

I feel certain that PF won't take the stand, but if his mother is forced to and pleads the 5th doesn't that also make her suspect of at least knowledge of something in the juries mind? I would think it would say very loudly to the Jury that she won't speak in order to protect her son.

SABBM

Ita.
At the end of her life, Kelsey was surround by vile people.
Outside of her family , and some close friends.
There hasn't been a lot said in msm about Kelsey's' friends, and if they've given any statements ?

From following other true crime cases here, it takes an enormous amount of heat to destroy a body down to ash and fragments.
I'm betting on a fair amount of evidence left by an incompetent PF .
If Kelsey is there --- I'm confident they'll find intact remains at the landfill.
My condolences to her family for having to deal with the unspeakable acts of PF & Co.

 

[NWLady]

I understand how you're feeling. It just comes "over" me too sometimes but @ab01 is absolutely right. They'll hate KK, and even distrust some of her testimony, but if they focus on the evidence presented, they should be able to see unequivocally who committed the actual murder. When they hear how he told lies about a lovely young woman to set up his "alibi", his collusion with KK in planning KB's murder and how she still cared enough about him to help with the cattle and pick up meds in the wee hours of the night for his tummy ache, and then burn her remains with KK at his side, they will absolutely hate/despise him. I also remind myself, the evidence we've seen is merely a sampling of what the DA has on him. There were 3300 pages of discovery.

Personally, I can't wait for PF's attorney to shred KK's character on the stand, but I doubt it will sway a jury to discount the mountain of evidence against him. And, since the preliminary hearing, I can't wait to see SF called to the stand! I'd like to know what she's hiding.

What makes me smile right now is knowing that baby K is in the loving arms of her grandparents, safely FAR away from the monsters that wanted to steal her.

BBM: However, IMO, we have to remember that KK's testimony must be very important to the prosecutors in their case against PF, otherwise why did they offer/give her such a sweet deal? I do though believe prosecutors have a lot of evidence against PF, but it is still JMO that KK's testimony is very much needed in regards to a conviction of PF also. Again, JMO.

 

[MassGuy]

BBM: However, IMO, we have to remember that KK's testimony must be very important to the prosecutors in their case against PF, otherwise why did they offer/give her such a sweet deal? I do though believe prosecutors have a lot of evidence against PF, but it is still JMO that KK's testimony is very much needed in regards to a conviction of PF also. Again, JMO.

Her testimony is going to be huge.

It’s important for us to remember too, that she got her deal because they didn’t have much at the time.

She gave them the solicitation charges, and explained in great detail, how this all went down.

Without her, they wouldn’t know where Kelsey was killed, how she was killed, where her body was stored, where she was burned, and how the deception unfolded after PF killed Kelsey.

So her contributions before trial, are going to be atleast as important as what she will testify to.