CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #16

[TeaTime]

People who are given anti-depressants already have an underlying mental problem. Sometimes it is temporary, sometimes not. The anti-depressant doesn't "make" anyone kill someone. If that happens, it is because the anti-depressant wasn't working, was the incorrect medication for the underlying issue, was not being taken properly or was being abused by the patient.

This married father of 2, soon to be 3, had a lover. He may have also had a gay lover. He wasn't operating with a good head on his shoulders, he was making bad choices, ones that would crumble his marriage and break the hearts of his own kids, and may have been questioning his sexual preferences.

He was into himself, not his wife or his kids - just him - and his head was in a very wicked place.

 

[skyedaze]

Also people who have taken antidepressants have committed violent acts and suicide. The info even comes with them. Thousands of cases of this happening. It makes me wonder if he was on these or if it was these patches. It seems after he did this, he was in Lalaland.

As people who haven't taken them have done as well.
He was not in lalaland...he is a narcissist...he has no empathy. It's how they roll.

 

[MyBelle]

Why say she probably took the kids and left while knowing the cops would see everything was still there?

I don't get that part.

Maybe he was having a difficult time separating his delusions from reality at that point.

 

[DexterMorgan]

She needed him to let her in at 2am. He made sure of that. And I doubt he did it so he could steal her patches for a quick fix.

 

[drama_farmer]

I wonder if he was originally supposed to pick her up from the airport before the flight delay?

IMO Great thought and question! If he was planning to pick up SW and the kids that evening, I wonder if a change of plans had some or any impact on the crimes, especially any alternative plans as they relate to the known timeline.

 

[Bill Carson]

Well the mask CW wore for sure. Let's count the other:

A Relationship without Empathy--
(a Narcissist) ...

So much time, energy and emotion is spent trying to understand why emotional manipulators do what they do. The answer has never been a secret. It’s always been in plain sight, but perhaps due to its simplicity and our inability to relate, we shrug it off and continue the search for some way where we can blame ourselves.

Why do Narcissists make such terrible partners? Why are they so hurtful? The answer is of course empathy, or rather a lack there of.

Empathy is defined as – the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings and thoughts of another, of either the past or present, without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner. – Webster

The DSM tells us that psychopaths lack empathy and that a Narcissist’s ability to feel empathy is impaired. This means that they cannot understand or have concern for the feelings of others.

Why are Narcissist’s so self-centered? – Because your feelings, your needs do not compute. It’s as if they are emotionally color blind, thus, missing colors in their emotional color palette.

What does a relationship look like with someone that lacks empathy?

Lack of Empathy Symptoms in a Romantic Relationship

Everything is always about them. Your thoughts, feelings, needs and wants are not considered, unless they serve a purpose.

Emotional Manipulators ruin the holidays, birthdays or any special event that is important to their partners. They do not like to share attention and therefore, do not care to be a part of anything that doesn’t thrust them in the spotlight. They have an expectation to receive and feel uncomfortable with the concept of giving.They will, on occasion give, but the gift will often be off somehow, usually not exactly what you wanted or asked for. They do the absolute minimum in terms of effort, when it comes to bestowing something that does not directly benefit them.

When their partners are ill or have some type of pain or injury, the Narcissist will view this as an inconvenience to them and either be bothered by it or ignore it. They are not caregivers. They don’t do nurturing – unless it’s to get praise by others – “Look at how great Tom is being while Anne gets over her appendicitis.”

They are never wrong, so don’t expect to get an apology. You will always be wrong, and they will always be the wronged party.

No issue is ever resolved. They thrive in ambiguity. When you can’t pin them down for a time or a decision they can never be held accountable when they disappoint. Disappointment is what they do. Don’t expect to be able to count or rely on them for much, unless there is a benefit to them.

They have a real problem discerning cause and effect. They cannot see a link between their behavior and your reaction. They will look at your reaction to what they’ve done as the problem, rather than their behavior.[CW will never see that what he did was wrong; his vicious act was, and will always be, somebody else's faul]. Undoubtedly, CW suffers from more than a personality disorder, but omitting the definitions and discussion of psychopaths and sociopaths here is intentional. I believe it's very serious stuff, and I'm not qualified to present it. Providing link below. All MOO].

Because of their fear of abandonment, they will try to control you through emotional, psychological and sometimes physical abuse. They will not care how this abuse affects you. They will not care if they have traumatized you, hurt you or that they are grounding your self-esteem into dust. The effects of their abuse do not generally even register with them.

Even if a Narcissist targeted you because of your wealth, business, fame, talent or connections, they will quickly start to resent you for these things. They are not supporters.They don’t do the cheerleader role. They will try to assert their control and methodically try to take over and try to take credit for your success, by undermining, demeaning and manipulating.

They will attack you verbally, emotionally sometimes physically if they feel that their ego is being threatened. You will usually be their emotional punching bag when things go wrong for them.

They have no interest in your growth and expansion. They don’t care about what’s best for you, your happiness or success. They will try to suppress these things, to maintain your compliance and their control.

They will make it very unpleasant for you to maintain outside relationships with family and friends. They want you there, focusing and serving them. They don’t want you to get any ideas, any hint of a better life. They don’t want people that love you to reach out and give you options, so any time you want to go out and socialize without them there will be a problem.

They will think nothing of flirting, spending time with or giving attention to another in your presence. They seek to be revered and the center of attention, it will not compute that their behavior is inappropriate or upsetting you. In fact, they will thrive on pitting one against the other, a term called triangulation. They love the feelings and attention that your jealousy gives them.

Nothing is ever equal. On matters that they care about they will insist on complete domination. In matters that don’t, they will not lift a finger to help or compromise.

They will not love you for you. They will constantly be trying to change you. They will criticize you and never let you feel comfortable in your own skin.

Their presence and energy will dominate your space. You won’t be able to work or focus on your own projects.

You will never be able to trust them. You will walk on egg shells because you will never know what’s coming or when the next shoe will drop. There is no relaxing, only high stress and anxiety.

You will never feel truly loved. You will never feel comfortable. You will never feel safe.

Why didn’t your relationship work? Stop searching. Stop looking for a way to make it your fault. If your relationship resembled many of the above behaviors, it’s time to stop obsessing. Stop the FBI analysis and start accepting the truth.Your relationship didn’t work out because you were involved with someone who has a Personality Disorder. It never had a chance.

Fair Use Act Disclaimer

This post is for education purposes only.

Copyright Disclaimer under section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976, allowance is made for “fair use” for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, education and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

www.esteemology.com, a website dedicated to educating and healing survivors of abusive relationships.

Psychopaths versus sociopaths: what is the difference?

Thank you for posting that. I did see a little bit of bracketed information referring to CW. I presume those are your notes, right? Thank you.

I understand a little bit better about narcissism now, but I'm having problems identifying behaviors of CW that indicate the narcissism or symptoms of it. I mean, I get that he killed his entire family but not himself, and I guess that's Exhibit A, and the interviews with the news media on Tuesday seemed more concerned about himself, but what do you see in CW's demeanor and presentation before the murders indicates narcissism? Everything I saw said "Shy Chris," "devoted to his family," "great husband," "reserved," "stayed to himself," and all that. But obviously I'm not seeing what you and the others are seeing. What should I be looking for?

For instance, the biggest thing in the above seems to be "narcissists lack empathy." What do you see from before the murders that indicates to you that he lacks empathy?

 

[Ronso]

Agree! I was actually going to say, imagine if the roles were reversed before I saw your post.
I do want to highlight, however, that there is a difference between bossy and emotionally abusive. And both men & women can be victims.

Absolutely. And Type-B can be abusive too. There's no rule book. I think people want to assume that a "bossy" woman was abusive over a "meek" man, but trust me when I say that my narc ex was definitely seen as quiet and shy and a "nice guy" (the kind that finish last) and many people have believed his lies about me being abusive because I can come across assertive and aggressive in comparison to him.

That mask came off in private. While he was a Type B he was still controlling and probably the most passive aggressive person I've ever met.

 

[molly1255]

People who are given anti-depressants already have an underlying mental problem. Sometimes it is temporary, sometimes not. The anti-depressant doesn't "make" anyone kill someone. If that happens, it is because the anti-depressant wasn't working, was the incorrect medication for the underlying issue, was not being taken properly or was being abused by the patient.

This married father of 2, soon to be 3, had a lover. He may have also had a gay lover. He wasn't operating with a good head on his shoulders, he was making bad choices, ones that would crumble his marriage and break the hearts of his own kids, and may have been questioning his sexual preferences.

He was into himself, not his wife or his kids - just him - and his head was in a very wicked place.

Agree and to add, he was having an affair with a co-worker (that we know of), and anyone knows this is a good way to get fired, further putting his family at risk.

 

[Stunned]

Yes, and (not that it matters) I wonder if users of the patches suffer from any sort of withdrawal when they stop using them. Whether they have to be tapered off like some medications. I know people suffer withdrawal even from caffeine, and I think the patches had caffeine and other substances.

I think someone on an earlier thread said it was like caffeine withdrawal.

 

[Layla123]

We know CW’s Dad cared enough about his son to fly out to Colorado when SW was first discovered to be missing. We know SW asked LE for an opportunity to speak with his Dad before confessing. I’m seeing a supportive Dad who cares very much about his family. I’m hoping Dad is an upstanding man who counsels C.W. to do the right thing, but we shall see.

I would like to add I think it’s highly likely that C.W. went with the SW strangled the children defense because he knew the severity of what he’d done, and he knew only a monster would kill their own children. He was ashamed and didn’t have the courage to admit what he’d done to his father. Whether he killed one, or three, didn’t matter, the consequences would still be the same.

 

[Bill Carson]

I absolutely agree that it’s important to understand the why, and all the contributing factors.

My issue is that we have no knowledge of what he was taking, and specifically, how or if, it contributed to his actions.

His post murder coverup efforts, don’t jibe with something pharmacological effecting him on such a deep level, that it influenced him enough to murder his family. This is because his actions appear to be rational (as much as murdering one’s family can be rational).

I think that his obvious psychological issues, are deeper seated than “the medication made me do it.”

BBM.

Thank you for all of your gracious answer. I, too, want to know everything about the psychology of this killer and crime.

 

[Mac1233]

This photo posted by @gitana1 of CW is chilling.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/img_9697-jpg.145186/

It certainly is. I hope the prosecution blows it up and puts it next to a pic of the caskets if there's a trial

 

[Quinquin]

I say this only if he has any humanity at all. I am not pro or con against CW but it is perplexing to me that he was viewed as "loving" and "gentle guy" by many who knew him. I haven't been aware of that many red-flags with regards to his pathology. But when AB's guest said that CW looked "as if he couldn't be bothered" at his trial and booking, I had to disagree. I thought he looked shell-shocked. His mouth was even hanging open slightly. That doesn't, to me, indicate guilt or innocence. Again, he looked traumatized as opposed to defiant or callous.

Perps and victims alike experience "trauma" so it doesn't necessarily mean victimized OR being responsible.

 

[MassGuy]

BBM.

Thank you for all of your gracious answer. I, too, want to know everything about the psychology of this killer and crime.

It’s incredibly important. Saying “oh, he was just evil” would be ignorant.

 

[kay74]

People who are given anti-depressants already have an underlying mental problem. Sometimes it is temporary, sometimes not. The anti-depressant doesn't "make" anyone kill someone. If that happens, it is because the anti-depressant wasn't working, was the incorrect medication for the underlying issue, was not being taken properly or was being abused by the patient.

This married father of 2, soon to be 3, had a lover. He may have also had a gay lover. He wasn't operating with a good head on his shoulders, he was making bad choices, ones that would crumble his marriage and break the hearts of his own kids, and may have been questioning his sexual preferences.
Yes the antidepressants can make some people kill and have caused numerous people to commit suicide. They are dangerous and scary drugs

He was into himself, not his wife or his kids - just him - and his head was in a very wicked place.

 

[Bill Carson]

I would like to add I think it’s highly likely that C.W. went with the SW strangled the children defense because he knew the severity of what he’d done, and he knew only a monster would kill their own children. He was ashamed and didn’t have the courage to admit what he’d done to his father. Whether he killed one, or three, didn’t matter, the consequences would still be the same.

Yes! "....he knew only a monster would kill their own children." He may never be able to admit even to himself that he did this. It reminds me of that scene from Psycho, where Norman screams, "Mother, what have you done?!?"

 

[kay74]

People who are given anti-depressants already have an underlying mental problem. Sometimes it is temporary, sometimes not. The anti-depressant doesn't "make" anyone kill someone. If that happens, it is because the anti-depressant wasn't working, was the incorrect medication for the underlying issue, was not being taken properly or was being abused by the patient.

This married father of 2, soon to be 3, had a lover. He may have also had a gay lover. He wasn't operating with a good head on his shoulders, he was making bad choices, ones that would crumble his marriage and break the hearts of his own kids, and may have been questioning his sexual preferences.

He was into himself, not his wife or his kids - just him - and his head was in a very wicked place.

Yes people do kill on antidepressants and have caused numerous people to commit suicide. They are scary dangerous drugs.

 

[cottonweaver]

The debate if other substances made CW susceptible to rage, is okay. It was the coverup and lies later.

And no, steroids/vitamins don't cause people to commit murder. We are looking at correlations, not causation.

Was there a highly combustible mix of factors that lead to this disaster? Definitely. Does that excuse anything? Nope.

Totally. Re ur bold, It's a non sequitur to say that exploring factors = " excusing anything"
Otherwise let's start now and say we should embargo all discussion of PDs from hereon in.

So no discussion of "narc", nor sociopathy, nor that he might have some other subset because that must be excusing his crimes by saying he has as factor..................... a personality disorder

Let's stick to he's just evil and keep it simple.

How will that fly? I don't think it would be popular.

 

[MassGuy]

Yes people do kill on antidepressants and have caused numerous people to commit suicide. They are scary dangerous drugs.

Yes. But it is rare that they cause a person to become psychotic, and have a break with reality.

 

[Tigerlily75]

Why say she probably took the kids and left while knowing the cops would see everything was still there?

I don't get that part.

He hadn't yet had time to stage a scene. He thought he would have plenty of time to get rid of evidence and set up a scenario, but then came along NU who called the police. IMO

 

[kay74]

I'm sure it'll all come out whether he was on something.