GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #57

[Best of What's Around]

My thought was he wanted her to think she left it behind because she was leaving him a “take this ring back, I don’t want it anymore” scenario.

I still think he was fully planning to set up the “she left me scenario” and had to change it to a play date on the fly when NUA told him she saw the car seats in the car, etc. the ring fits well.

 

[Nellie Nelson]

I thought this was pre-meditated to the extent that he had killed his children before Shannan ever returned home, but I have changed my mind about that, due the information revealed in Chris Watts interviews.

There are many things I deeply distrust about his account of what happened, and I still also distrust my own understanding of what happened, but in many murderer's accounts they let slip somethings that are true, or rather there is some sense of truth about them.

There is, for me, a sense of verisimilitude in some details he let slip.

His account during one police interview of Shannan saying " off, off off" [trusting the Webslueths profanity filter here], that sounds real to me if he did indeed tell her he was 'done' at some point after she arrived home.

His remarks about her mascara/make up on her face? That sounds real to me, and of course he might well guess that since they found the pillow cases [because he did not have time to get them out of the house thanks to Nicole U], forensic investigators would find evidence of smeared mascara/eye make up/tears on them.

Him saying he got on the bed above the covers to 'talk' to her in his full work kit sound real to me, because we know he had no injuries that would ordinarily be inflicted by someone being strangled, and she had none that someone whose arms were free would have instinctively inflicted on someone strangling her. He may also have been aware that some fibres from his work clothes or other evidence may have remained on the comforter or whatever bedding was there.

He killed Shannan because she at the very least [whether he told her about NK or not] was absolutely, adamantly not acquiescing to his idiotic peurile 'we are just not connecting anymore' BS, and she certainly was not going to make things easy for him. " Off! Off! OFF!"

Once he had killed Shannan those poor children stood no chance.

 

[ab01]

ok catching up: But CW seriously looked up the song "Battery" by metallica when he was in the process of dumping his little girls bodies in battery oil tanks......I have no words....

 

[Best of What's Around]

Per what we learned about FAs and their carefully constructed “good guy” masks...this evidence released shows how repeatedly concerned CW was with maintaining this image. From her friends to LE, he keeps mentioning he doesn’t want anyone to think less of him. I fully believe this is the number one reason (followed by financial and logistic headaches of a divorce and dealing with the family in the future when he wanted a clean break) he murdered them (affair being part of this). I don’t believe he could see himself as the man to cheated and left his pregnant wife for another woman. And he just couldn’t wait it out. He was like a teenager chasing an all encompassing new love interest to me...single minded. It is illuminating. IMO

 

[MassGuy]

I thought this was pre-meditated to the extent that he had killed his children before Shannan ever returned home, but I have changed my mind about that, due the information revealed in Chris Watts interviews.

There are many things I deeply distrust about his account of what happened, and I still also distrust my own understanding of what happened, but in many murderer's accounts they let slip somethings that are true, or rather there is some sense of truth about them.

There is, for me, a sense of verisimilitude in some details he let slip.

His account during one police interview of Shannan saying "**** off, **** off **** off" [trusting the Webslueths profanity filter here], that sounds real to me if he did indeed tell her he was 'done' at some point after she arrived home.

His remarks about her mascara/make up on her face? That sounds real to me, and of course he might well guess that since they found the pillow cases [because he did not have time to get them out of the house thanks to Nicole U], forensic investigators would find evidence of smeared mascara/eye make up/tears on them.

Him saying he got on the bed above the covers to 'talk' to her in his full work kit sound real to me, because we know he had no injuries that would ordinarily be inflicted by someone being strangled, and she had none that someone whose arms were free would have instinctively inflicted on someone strangling her. He may also have been aware that some fibres from his work clothes or other evidence may have remained on the comforter or whatever bedding was there.

He killed Shannan because she at the very least [whether he told her about NK or not] was absolutely, adamantly not acquiescing to his idiotic peurile 'we are just not connecting anymore' BS, and she certainly was not going to make things easy for him. "**** Off! **** Off! **** OFF!"

Once he had killed Shannan those poor children stood no chance.

I agree with your thinking here. We will never know for absolute certainty the exact circumstances of their deaths. But this document gives us some valuable pieces of the puzzle.

All the ingredients were in place for some sort of huge argument. This was not however, the “emotional discussion” that he talked about. He was simply downplaying it.

He wanted a new life, and I think decided to achieve this in the course of whatever words were said between the two.

If you put this together with what the kids were wearing, and what Shanann was wearing, it seems as if everything was normal up until a point.

The point in which he killed them.

 

[scdiv]

I’m not sure if this has been discussed yet, but it’s pretty clear from the discovery document where the “Shanann killed the kids” scenario came from.

Many of us assumed that he didn’t come up with that scenario on his own, because he’s a bit of a dumbass.

I speculated that it may have come from the conversation with his father.

If you read the transcript of his interview with police, you can see that they used various methods in order to draw a confession from him.

One of those methods was to give him “an out” or a scenario in which he was not fully responsible.

That’s what happened here. He bit.

Agreed. I think pretty standard technique to draw a confession - give that "out." Get them to lie one more time and bite. He bit. Now he has admitted that they are all dead. Then they can start poking holes into the next lies. I can't believe he didn't ask for a lawyer before he confessed to that. Or that his father didn't say don't say another word until we get you back in there with a lawyer.

Page 603:

His father said: Well, we need to find a good lawyer and see what and the hell they can do. And then detectives come back into the room and CW proceeds to give them his fake confession.... with no lawyer present!! I can't even with these people. I mean, thank goodness this sociopath is as dumb as rocks.

I can only imagine what a few more days of freedom and google searches would have shown. "Does oil preserve DNA?" "Can you take back a confession?" "Do they still have the death penalty in Colorado?" "Can you take Thrive in prison?" "Do people still hate Scott Peterson?"

 

[MassGuy]

Agreed. I think pretty standard technique to draw a confession - give that "out." Get them to lie one more time and bite. He bit. Now he has admitted that they are all dead. Then they can start poking holes into the next lies. I can't believe he didn't ask for a lawyer before he confessed to that. Or that his father didn't say don't say another word until we get you back in there with a lawyer.

His father said: Well, we need to find a good lawyer and see what and the hell they can do. And then detectives come back into the room and CW proceeds to give them his fake confession.... with no lawyer present!! I can't even with these people. I mean, they goodness this sociopath is as dumb as rocks.

I can only imagine what a few more days of freedom and google searches would have shown. "Does oil preserve DNA?" "Can you take back a confession?" "Do they still have the death penalty in Colorado?" "Can you take Thrive in prison?" "Do people still hate Scott Peterson?"

Haaaa. Thank goodness for his stupidity.

Yeah, he would have certainly dug a deeper hole for himself with a few more days of freedom.

Police obviously couldn’t take that risk, and they had enough at this point regardless.

 

[nwmouse]

Discovery Page 1278: Trent Bolte.
I initially dismissed it as hogwash, but after reading TB's statement to the FBI I can't help feeling a ring of truth in his description of CW and his sick behavior.
What do y'all think?

moo

 

[Mitch11]

I agree with your thinking here. We will never know for absolute certainty the exact circumstances of their deaths. But this document gives us some valuable pieces of the puzzle.

All the ingredients were in place for some sort of huge argument. This was not however, the “emotional discussion” that he talked about. He was simply downplaying it.

He wanted a new life, and I think decided to achieve this in the course of whatever words were said between the two.

If you put this together with what the kids were wearing, and what Shanann was wearing, it seems as if everything was normal up until a point.

The point in which he killed them.

I actually dont buy his line that they had an 'emotional argument' He lied about so many other things and when you read the communication between him and SW in the last two weeks he barely wanted to speak with her. She was asking him hard questions, he didnt even want to answer.. just walked away or went to bed at various times. I actually think he had no conversation, he just let her go to sleep then strangled her.

 

[MassGuy]

Discovery Page 1278: Trent Bolte.
I initially dismissed it as hogwash, but after reading TB's statement to the FBI I can't help feeling a ring of truth in his description of CW and his sick behavior.
What do y'all think?

moo

I’m torn. After reading the document, unless I am missing something, it appears that the issue of Bolte’s veracity was never settled.

There were things in there that seemed credible, but there were no communications discovered between the two.

There was apparently nothing revealed in his search history, that indicates that CW is in fact gay, or even bisexual.

It’s still a big maybe for me.

 

[MsBetsy]

I just finished reading the interview and confession to investigators. It's so obvious he is lying it's laughable. Detetectives practictly spelled out his whole confession for him. Now I see where he got the idea. From LE themselves. Towards the end they keep asking him if he is sure Shanann didn't somehow kill the girls and things escalated from there? Maybe there was an " accident" and things got out of control? They suggested other scenarios involving Shanann killing the girls and him reacting in anger ending in her being killed. Then suddenly he wants to speak to his dad. Tells him a whole story of Shanann finally realizing he was having an affair and before he knew it she was strangling the girls. Uses the words suffocated and then ends up sticking to strangled. It's just so obvious!
I bet his dad repeated everything to his family and that's the reason his supporters pushed his story so much. Many of their theories matched what was said in that room. No wonder LE mentioned the theories on the internet hampering the investigation. People get bits of information from the investigation and then run with it, adding their own opinions. Ronnie told that story to LE about the doll, and before you know it it becomes an important clue to the investigation. I don't think they considered it to be evidence at all.

The other thing I noticed was once CW told them his story, the only thing he is concerned about is what they think if him. He doesn't want a co- worker to go with LE to the site because he is afraid of what they will think. He says they all think he is a "good guy." He also expresses to his dad and LE that he is worried what they think if him now. His main concern is what everyone thinks.
This supports the notion that the psychopaths worst fear is to be exposed as what they really are. Above all, this is what concerns him most. We observed this by the way he held his head down and hunched his shoulders in the court room. He has finally been exposed and will always be known for his shameful and despicable acts. I hope he is aware of the document being public and that everyone will know every word he said, and everything he did. Jmo

 

[Mitch11]

Per what we learned about FAs and their carefully constructed “good guy” masks...this evidence released shows how repeatedly concerned CW was with maintaining this image. From her friends to LE, he keeps mentioning he doesn’t want anyone to think less of him. I fully believe this is the number one reason (followed by financial and logistic headaches of a divorce and dealing with the family in the future when he wanted a clean break) he murdered them (affair being part of this). I don’t believe he could see himself as the man to cheated and left his pregnant wife for another woman. And he just couldn’t wait it out. He was like a teenager chasing an all encompassing new love interest to me...single minded. It is illuminating. IMO

Totally agree, its all throughout. Him trying to save face,

 

[ReckoningDay]

Agreed. I think pretty standard technique to draw a confession - give that "out." Get them to lie one more time and bite. He bit. Now he has admitted that they are all dead. Then they can start poking holes into the next lies. I can't believe he didn't ask for a lawyer before he confessed to that. Or that his father didn't say don't say another word until we get you back in there with a lawyer.

Page 603:

His father said: Well, we need to find a good lawyer and see what and the hell they can do. And then detectives come back into the room and CW proceeds to give them his fake confession.... with no lawyer present!! I can't even with these people. I mean, thank goodness this sociopath is as dumb as rocks.

I can only imagine what a few more days of freedom and google searches would have shown. "Does oil preserve DNA?" "Can you take back a confession?" "Do they still have the death penalty in Colorado?" "Can you take Thrive in prison?" "Do people still hate Scott Peterson?"

We could probably make an extensive list of questions CW would have googled in his quest to appear to be a normal and mildly intelligenr human being. Yours are a good start! It would be funny if it weren't so horrible, endlessly tragic.

 

[Mitch11]

For anyone trying to catch up with the documents. I doubt any of us have read all the pages yet. Just so much info!

However, if you skip to towards the very end theres a wonderful time frame they have put together which shows what happened at various times over the month eg known texts sent, internet searches etc

 

[Deleted member 182072]

Copied from previous thread:
mrjitty,
"Interesting

3 months behind on homeloan

140K in insurance policies on SW and the kids".

CW was already spending this insurance money in his thick head.
MOO.

Very interesting about their mortgage being delinquent at the time of the murders.
Back when they filed for bankruptcy in 6/2015, they were actually current on their mortgage which then had a balance of $378,348.
Purchase price $400K, loan amount $392,709, start date 5/2013, interest rate 4.15%, 30 year term
Loan Amortization Calculator

Assuming three months delinquency, the mortgage balance would have been around $356K at the time of the murders.
This appears to be the comp the realtor mentioned to CW (page 1930):
6508 Saratoga Trl, Erie, CO 80516 - realtor.com®

Some of the info from Pages 528,529:
SW borrowed $10K from CW's 401K.
$3,500 combined in two different checking accounts.
$8-10K credit card debit, making minimum payments on most.
High medical bills

Look to me like if CW hadn't been wasting so much time and money on his affairs he could have been earning more for his family instead, so they wouldn't have been in such financial distress.

 

[sun16]

Discovery Page 1278: Trent Bolte.
I initially dismissed it as hogwash, but after reading TB's statement to the FBI I can't help feeling a ring of truth in his description of CW and his sick behavior.
What do y'all think?

moo

I think I’m a no/didn’t happen on this.

 

[nwmouse]

I’m torn. After reading the document, unless I am missing something, it appears that the issue of Bolte’s veracity was never settled.

There were things in there that seemed credible, but there were no communications discovered between the two.

There was apparently nothing revealed in his search history, that indicates that CW is in fact gay, or even bisexual.

It’s still a big maybe for me.

The NK google searches for an*l sex strikes me as weird after reading TB's statement.

It is a bit off and it sounds to me as though it was new for her and that it was CW's wish to do it.

I know that experimenting in that manner doesn't mean someone is gay or bisexual but, well, it is controlling and degrading if a woman doesn't like it.

Forgive me, I'm still a bit old school about these things.

moo

 

[scdiv]

Pages 2117 & 2118
From Sunday, August 13
1705 hours: CW's text to the coworker about going directly to the site the next morning alone.
1946 hours: Shanann asked "Hey honey, kids in bed" and asked for pictures. Watts replied "Bella just back in bed." Shanann noted, "They must be exhausted."

Watts resent the images from earlier in the day (at the dinner table). He also added an image of Bella taken at the birthday party earlier that day.

What do we think about the fact that SW asked for pictures and CW re-sent pictures from earlier in the day instead of sending any current pictures of the girls sleeping? Had he already killed the girls? Especially given the text to the coworker insisting he could go to that oil site alone first thing?

 

[MassGuy]

Very interesting about their mortgage being delinquent at the time of the murders.
Back when they filed for bankruptcy in 6/2015, they were actually current on their mortgage which then had a balance of $378,348.
Purchase price $400K, loan amount $392,709, start date 5/2013, interest rate 4.15%, 30 year term
Loan Amortization Calculator

Assuming three months delinquency, the mortgage balance would have been around $356K at the time of the murders.
This appears to be the comp the realtor mentioned to CW (page 1930):
6508 Saratoga Trl, Erie, CO 80516 - realtor.com®

Some of the info from Pages 528,529:
SW borrowed $10K from CW's 401K.
$3,500 combined in two different checking accounts.
$8-10K credit card debit, making minimum payments on most.
High medical bills

Look to me like if CW hadn't been wasting so much time and money on his affairs he could have been earning more for his family instead, so they wouldn't have been in such financial distress.

Yeah. It’s pretty clear that they were in dire financial straits. I assumed this from the beginning, but it was a bit worse than I imagined.

This likely factored in to his overall motive.

 

[MsBetsy]

My thought was he wanted her to think she left it behind because she was leaving him a “take this ring back, I don’t want it anymore” scenario.

I'm sure he did. That's why it would sound suspicious to me. If a mother who cares about her children and who I knew to have financial problems really took off on her own, I would assume she would take the ring as a quick way to make money. Jmo