GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #60

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Just a reminder for everyone that I'm putting together a detailed timeline from the discovery docs, so that no one else duplicates. As you can imagine it's taking a while, because of the number of pages to go through and writing the corresponding notes.

Thank you! Appreciate it as I am looking for some missing pieces and it is not easy to sleuth thru 1960 pages of the pdf document. A lot to process while I was gone for thanksgiving weekend and it took a while to catchup. I still couldnt find the text messages between CW & SW, CW & NK. IMO, NK is neither innocent nor a victim as she sounded in her first MSM interview.

Anyway, the sticking point for me is SW trying to purchase a hair product around 2:30am and cc getting declined( I remember reading somewhere in the doc), which kinda makes me believe that all of them were alive at that time. IMO, that would have trigerred the conversation. I am hoping all of these dots will be connected someday atleast for the families and friends.
 
Thank you! Appreciate it as I am looking for some missing pieces and it is not easy to sleuth thru 1960 pages of the pdf document. A lot to process while I was gone for thanksgiving weekend and it took a while to catchup. I still couldnt find the text messages between CW & SW, CW & NK. IMO, NK is neither innocent nor a victim as she sounded in her first MSM interview.

Anyway, the sticking point for me is SW trying to purchase a hair product around 2:30am and cc getting declined( I remember reading somewhere in the doc), which kinda makes me believe that all of them were alive at that time. IMO, that would have trigerred the conversation. I am hoping all of these dots will be connected someday atleast for the families and friends.

I'm of the opinion that it was one of those automatic monthly charges. Assuming SW was on her phone to order from Amazon (are we sure it was Amazon? I can't recall), wouldn't her phone show records? Or maybe it wouldn't if she was using the Amazon app and not Safari?
 
Hi all, I was here at the beginning of this investigation and have been playing catch up for about a week. I went through the discovery docs really thoroughly but I couldn’t find any statement - do we know if the police/NUA/Nick encountered the girls’ packed backpacks? CW did put the car seats in the car, possibly as part of his plan to cover-up, but did he get their school bags ready? Do we have any idea?
 
I think the statement she gave at the sentencing hearing could be a useful place to start. I've forgotten her words to be honest, but a reviewing of it might give us some insight into how she related to him.
I thought Cindy Watts got a lot of help from her Victim’s Advocate in writing that statement for her to make such an abrupt turn around, so quickly. She wanted to make sure she said all the right things for appearances sake, but her token mention of Shanann seemed rather gratuitous after all the terrible things she’d said about her in the days before. It wouldn’t surprise me to learn Cindy is back to making excuses for her son’s behavior, now that it’s over.
 
I think being able to see actual video footage of his interviews may clarify if he actually felt any remorse. His body language, the way he describes disposing of his daughters. But then it could just be an act.

I am very interested in watching his demeanor.

You know it's quite bizarre. I thought initially (and wrongly predicted a quick confession as a result), that he might have been feeling slight guilt when he spelled and said his daughters' names. He had a hard swallow.

Was that slight guilt? Can sociopaths or psychopaths feel any measure of guilt or empathy or love at times?

I actually think they might be able to in a very limited or muted manner. For that reason, some serial killers refuse to ever admit killing particular victims even though they admit to many others. And those are victims whose faces they often cover.

Sometimes monster predators will keep certain victims alive and can't bring themselves to kill them. Like Shawn Hornbeck's predator. And Shasta Groene's.

I note that Christian Longo described in interviews to the ex NY times writer how he got so upset seeing his child hurting herself. Or being ill. (I can't recall which). Yet he was able to strangle one child and drop two into freezing water with weights on their legs, while alive.

It's confusing. It's contradictory.

I think it's never that black and white. There are vestiges of something human but it's not quite right. Not quite normal.

I think the reason CW could fool so many for so long is he wasn't a predator and didn't have anger management issues. He had a hard time being in intimate relationships that were real- like true friendships. Deep romantic relationships. He may have lasted with SW because she didn't question his identity too deeply. She was a strong enough personality for both of them. She didn't demand that he be a totally reciprocal partner. Maybe she was satisfied with being able to run the show and delegate where many others might resent never having their partner make decisions or take responsibility. But for a shadow person like CW this might have worked for awhile.

Regardless, I don't think he had on-going urges to hurt or kill anyone so no one felt that hair-raising feeling when he stared at them. Because he wasn't predatory.

He became dangerous when he became obsessed with someone new and with being able to escape his fake life.

Will he show any emotion? Will it be fake as the investigator stated "He tried to squeeze out a tear."?

This man suffocated his kids and dumped them and yet he was able to serenely watch videos of them alive and playing, right after. That takes a level of detachment and apathy and disconnection that doesn't seem human to me, unless the person is completely psychotic and slapping feces on themselves. And there are zero signs of psychosis in this guy.

So does he have any vestiges of humanity?

I don't know if we will be able to figure it out but every time we watch these interrogations or interviews of these monsters, our minds file it away and warn us when the next one pops up.

Memories and data banks of info that, when combined with basic common sense, allow most to filter through the noise of gossip and personal dislike and attraction and bias and bizarre red herrings, in order to be able to instantly recognize the next monster who pops up on tv expressing "concern" about his missing family or "despair" about loved ones who somehow suddenly turned up dead.
 
Hi all, I was here at the beginning of this investigation and have been playing catch up for about a week. I went through the discovery docs really thoroughly but I couldn’t find any statement - do we know if the police/NUA/Nick encountered the girls’ packed backpacks? CW did put the car seats in the car, possibly as part of his plan to cover-up, but did he get their school bags ready? Do we have any idea?
I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere in the docs. He would have used the car seats when he took them to the party.
 
Thank you! Appreciate it as I am looking for some missing pieces and it is not easy to sleuth thru 1960 pages of the pdf document. A lot to process while I was gone for thanksgiving weekend and it took a while to catchup. I still couldnt find the text messages between CW & SW, CW & NK. IMO, NK is neither innocent nor a victim as she sounded in her first MSM interview.

Anyway, the sticking point for me is SW trying to purchase a hair product around 2:30am and cc getting declined( I remember reading somewhere in the doc), which kinda makes me believe that all of them were alive at that time. IMO, that would have trigerred the conversation. I am hoping all of these dots will be connected someday atleast for the families and friends.
I seriously doubt she was buying hair products at 2am after a delayed flight exhaustion and emotional upheaval with CW. I think that was just when she got a notification for an earlier in the day/nite purchase or autoship( was it Amazon?) I was thinking she tried to make the purchase while she was awaiting her plane to take off, or even on the plane itself.
 
I am very interested in watching his demeanor.

You know it's quite bizarre. I thought initially (and wrongly predicted a quick confession as a result), that he might have been feeling slight guilt when he spelled and said his daughters' names. He had a hard swallow.

Was that slight guilt? Can sociopaths or psychopaths feel any measure of guilt or empathy or love at times?

I actually think they might be able to in a very limited or muted manner. For that reason, some serial killers refuse to ever admit killing particular victims even though they admit to many others. And those are victims whose faces they often cover.

Sometimes monster predators will keep certain victims alive and can't bring themselves to kill them. Like Shawn Hornbeck's predator. And Shasta Groene's.

I note that Christian Longo described in interviews to the ex NY times writer how he got so upset seeing his child hurting herself. Or being ill. (I can't recall which). Yet he was able to strangle one child and drop two into freezing water with weights on their legs, while alive.

It's confusing. It's contradictory.

I think it's never that black and white. There are vestiges of something human but it's not quite right. Not quite normal.

I think the reason CW could fool so many for so long is he wasn't a predator and didn't have anger management issues. He had a hard time being in intimate relationships that were real- like true friendships. Deep romantic relationships. He may have lasted with SW because she didn't question his identity to deeply. She was a strong enough personality for both of them. She didn't demand that he be a totally reciprocal partner. Maybe she was satisfied with being able to run the show and delegate where many others might resent never having their partner make decisions or take responsibility. But for a shadow person like CW this might have worked for awhile.

Regardless, I don't think he had on-going urges to hurt or kill anyone so no one felt that hair-raising feeling when he stared at them. Because he wasn't predatory.

He became dangerous when he became obsessed with someone new and with being able to escape his fake life.

Will he show any emotion? Will it be fake as the investigator stated "He tried to squeeze out a tear."

This man suffocated his kids and dumped them and yet he was able to serenely watch videos of them alive and playing. That takes a level of detachment and apathy and disconnection that doesn't seem human to me, unless the person is completely psychotic and slapping feces on themselves. And there are zero signs of psychosis in this guy.

So does he have any vestiges of humanity?

I don't know if we will be able to figure it out but every time we watch these interrogations or interviews of these monsters, our minds file it away and warn us when the next one pops up.

Memories and data banks of info that, when combined with basic common sense, allow most to filter through the noise of gossip and personal dislike and attraction and bias and bizarre red herrings, in order to be able to instantly recognize the next monster who pops up on tv expressing "concern" about his missing family or "despair" about loved ones who somehow suddenly turned up dead.

I also wonder that myself. I think they can feel empathy but not in a healthy or normal way. We still need more studies on it, and I do think there are brain malformities.
https://www.med.wisc.edu/news-and-e...opaths-brains-differences-structure-function/
 
Hi all, I was here at the beginning of this investigation and have been playing catch up for about a week. I went through the discovery docs really thoroughly but I couldn’t find any statement - do we know if the police/NUA/Nick encountered the girls’ packed backpacks? CW did put the car seats in the car, possibly as part of his plan to cover-up, but did he get their school bags ready? Do we have any idea?
To my knowledge, the car seats were always in the Lexus, never removed - it's their only personal vehicle. All reports were that SW and girls had left the house taking nothing with them so I imagine that would include the backpacks. No reports backpacks were found at CERVI site or CW truck.
 
I didn't see in my first reading of the docs any mention of them seeing CW loading their bodies into his truck on the video footage. They said the neighbor's camera did not capture the rear of the truck because it was backed up inside the garage. I'm wondering whose camera captured that then.
 
Hi all, I was here at the beginning of this investigation and have been playing catch up for about a week. I went through the discovery docs really thoroughly but I couldn’t find any statement - do we know if the police/NUA/Nick encountered the girls’ packed backpacks? CW did put the car seats in the car, possibly as part of his plan to cover-up, but did he get their school bags ready? Do we have any idea?
I just searched through the discovery, and did not find any evidence that the children's backpacks were found. They were not found in the Lexus or the truck. That doesn't necessarily mean they weren't somewhere in the house, and if found were not considered relevant to LE.
 
I am very interested in watching his demeanor.

You know it's quite bizarre. I thought initially (and wrongly predicted a quick confession as a result), that he might have been feeling slight guilt when he spelled and said his daughters' names. He had a hard swallow.

Was that slight guilt? Can sociopaths or psychopaths feel any measure of guilt or empathy or love at times?

I actually think they might be able to in a very limited or muted manner. For that reason, some serial killers refuse to ever admit killing particular victims even though they admit to many others. And those are victims whose faces they often cover.

Sometimes monster predators will keep certain victims alive and can't bring themselves to kill them. Like Shawn Hornbeck's predator. And Shasta Groene's.

I note that Christian Longo described in interviews to the ex NY times writer how he got so upset seeing his child hurting herself. Or being ill. (I can't recall which). Yet he was able to strangle one child and drop two into freezing water with weights on their legs, while alive.

It's confusing. It's contradictory.

I think it's never that black and white. There are vestiges of something human but it's not quite right. Not quite normal.

I think the reason CW could fool so many for so long is he wasn't a predator and didn't have anger management issues. He had a hard time being in intimate relationships that were real- like true friendships. Deep romantic relationships. He may have lasted with SW because she didn't question his identity too deeply. She was a strong enough personality for both of them. She didn't demand that he be a totally reciprocal partner. Maybe she was satisfied with being able to run the show and delegate where many others might resent never having their partner make decisions or take responsibility. But for a shadow person like CW this might have worked for awhile.

Regardless, I don't think he had on-going urges to hurt or kill anyone so no one felt that hair-raising feeling when he stared at them. Because he wasn't predatory.

He became dangerous when he became obsessed with someone new and with being able to escape his fake life.

Will he show any emotion? Will it be fake as the investigator stated "He tried to squeeze out a tear."?

This man suffocated his kids and dumped them and yet he was able to serenely watch videos of them alive and playing, right after. That takes a level of detachment and apathy and disconnection that doesn't seem human to me, unless the person is completely psychotic and slapping feces on themselves. And there are zero signs of psychosis in this guy.

So does he have any vestiges of humanity?

I don't know if we will be able to figure it out but every time we watch these interrogations or interviews of these monsters, our minds file it away and warn us when the next one pops up.

Memories and data banks of info that, when combined with basic common sense, allow most to filter through the noise of gossip and personal dislike and attraction and bias and bizarre red herrings, in order to be able to instantly recognize the next monster who pops up on tv expressing "concern" about his missing family or "despair" about loved ones who somehow suddenly turned up dead.
Thank you for writing this, this is brilliant. So brilliant, it needs to be published in a magazine, somewhere. You just summed it all up about as good as it’s going to get summed up.
 
Thank you! Appreciate it as I am looking for some missing pieces and it is not easy to sleuth thru 1960 pages of the pdf document. A lot to process while I was gone for thanksgiving weekend and it took a while to catchup. I still couldnt find the text messages between CW & SW, CW & NK. IMO, NK is neither innocent nor a victim as she sounded in her first MSM interview.

Anyway, the sticking point for me is SW trying to purchase a hair product around 2:30am and cc getting declined( I remember reading somewhere in the doc), which kinda makes me believe that all of them were alive at that time. IMO, that would have trigerred the conversation. I am hoping all of these dots will be connected someday atleast for the families and friends.
The Phone Data Review timeline starts on PDF page 1,883 (discovery page 2,078). The texts between CW and NK were deleted but there are texts between CW and SW listed as well as a breakdown of what NK was doing on her phone around the same time.
 
I'm also curious about the 2:30 a.m. purchase. And how it was made - via phone or laptop. The only reference to it in the discovery documents was an email saying the purchase had been declined so I do still think it could have been an auto ship automatic charge or a product that had been backordered and was now back in stock so the charge went through. A lot of times those automatic charges hit overnight.
 
I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere in the docs. He would have used the car seats when he took them to the party.
Yes, sorry, I was referring to the text where Shanann asked him to put Bella’s seat back in the car because she’d been asking for it. I assume she was getting big enough not to use it but felt comforted in it, and i believe both were found in the car. Just curious how much of the Monday prep he actually did.
 
Thank you! Appreciate it as I am looking for some missing pieces and it is not easy to sleuth thru 1960 pages of the pdf document. A lot to process while I was gone for thanksgiving weekend and it took a while to catchup. I still couldnt find the text messages between CW & SW, CW & NK. IMO, NK is neither innocent nor a victim as she sounded in her first MSM interview.

Anyway, the sticking point for me is SW trying to purchase a hair product around 2:30am and cc getting declined( I remember reading somewhere in the doc), which kinda makes me believe that all of them were alive at that time. IMO, that would have trigerred the conversation. I am hoping all of these dots will be connected someday atleast for the families and friends.
Speaking of the credit card charge - do we have any definitive info as to why it was declined? Was it just maxed out or is it possible CW started closing down SW's cards as part of his plan?
 
Thank you! Appreciate it as I am looking for some missing pieces and it is not easy to sleuth thru 1960 pages of the pdf document. A lot to process while I was gone for thanksgiving weekend and it took a while to catchup. I still couldnt find the text messages between CW & SW, CW & NK. IMO, NK is neither innocent nor a victim as she sounded in her first MSM interview.

Anyway, the sticking point for me is SW trying to purchase a hair product around 2:30am and cc getting declined( I remember reading somewhere in the doc), which kinda makes me believe that all of them were alive at that time. IMO, that would have trigerred the conversation. I am hoping all of these dots will be connected someday atleast for the families and friends.

I don't believe there are detailed text messages between CW & NK (other than mentioning that pictures were being sent and moved to the Secret Calculator app). I don't recall seeing any actual text content, unlike the texts between SW and CW. The detailed interactions/timeline are contained in the last pages of the document. Maybe about 20 pages or so? You could start there and backtrack.
 
CW also said he was not used to having a relationship with his father in text messages between SW and CW after the nut allergy episode. I am interested in delving further into CW's family and the toxic dynamic there. It appears to be in stark contrast to Shanann's family, who has shown themselves to be loving,supportive and close. CW at one point when he was being interviewed by LE stated that his dad is his hero, but I sure don't see that. IMO
Respectfully, I believe it was the opposite: CW and his Dad were very close, and CW told SW that the nut incident was driving a communication wedge between him and his Dad. I believe SW replied that it was Cindy that was creating the wedge, and not SW. MOO
 
I am very interested in watching his demeanor.

You know it's quite bizarre. I thought initially (and wrongly predicted a quick confession as a result), that he might have been feeling slight guilt when he spelled and said his daughters' names. He had a hard swallow.

Was that slight guilt? Can sociopaths or psychopaths feel any measure of guilt or empathy or love at times?

I actually think they might be able to in a very limited or muted manner. For that reason, some serial killers refuse to ever admit killing particular victims even though they admit to many others. And those are victims whose faces they often cover.

Sometimes monster predators will keep certain victims alive and can't bring themselves to kill them. Like Shawn Hornbeck's predator. And Shasta Groene's.

I note that Christian Longo described in interviews to the ex NY times writer how he got so upset seeing his child hurting herself. Or being ill. (I can't recall which). Yet he was able to strangle one child and drop two into freezing water with weights on their legs, while alive.

It's confusing. It's contradictory.

I think it's never that black and white. There are vestiges of something human but it's not quite right. Not quite normal.

I think the reason CW could fool so many for so long is he wasn't a predator and didn't have anger management issues. He had a hard time being in intimate relationships that were real- like true friendships. Deep romantic relationships. He may have lasted with SW because she didn't question his identity too deeply. She was a strong enough personality for both of them. She didn't demand that he be a totally reciprocal partner. Maybe she was satisfied with being able to run the show and delegate where many others might resent never having their partner make decisions or take responsibility. But for a shadow person like CW this might have worked for awhile.

Regardless, I don't think he had on-going urges to hurt or kill anyone so no one felt that hair-raising feeling when he stared at them. Because he wasn't predatory.

He became dangerous when he became obsessed with someone new and with being able to escape his fake life.

Will he show any emotion? Will it be fake as the investigator stated "He tried to squeeze out a tear."

This man suffocated his kids and dumped them and yet he was able to serenely watch videos of them alive and playing. That takes a level of detachment and apathy and disconnection that doesn't seem human to me, unless the person is completely psychotic and slapping feces on themselves. And there are zero signs of psychosis in this guy.

So does he have any vestiges of humanity?

I don't know if we will be able to figure it out but every time we watch these interrogations or interviews of these monsters, our minds file it away and warn us when the next one pops up.

Memories and data banks of info that, when combined with basic common sense, allow most to filter through the noise of gossip and personal dislike and attraction and bias and bizarre red herrings, in order to be able to instantly recognize the next monster who pops up on tv expressing "concern" about his missing family or "despair" about loved ones who somehow suddenly turned up dead.

You make some.many good points. And yes, I agree that it is over simplifying to think that a narcissist or even a sociopath NEVER feels one bit of emotion or guilt and remorse. I've known a few and they have their occasional weak or.tender moments. it makes sense that if one sees their child or even pet as an extension of themselves , that there will be at least a bit of " caring" for lack of a better word that is similar to their twisted self-care.
I was once well acquainted ( through a family relationship) with a man who was cruel and abusive towards women and the women's pets. I despised everything about him . ( still.do) So imagine my shock when I was in the same.room.as him one evening watching a movie ( ufghh long story) and during a.particularly emotional part of the.movie glanced over to.see tears streaming down his face. For a.moment I almost had a sympathetic view of him, but then I reminded myself of the tragedy that put us in the same.room , and came to my senses.
But I've always remembered that brief moment of.emotion and believed that even dangerous people can have a flash of something human.
I suspect not every moment of CW life was ruled by evil, but when something came along that he really really wanted , he was willing to push back any human emotion and move.forward to obtain what he wanted most. It is sickening yet fascinating to.me. What did he tell himself in order to.justify his actions, I wonder?
 
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