GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #60

[Seattle1]

Has it been discussed that he was seen stopping by his work truck in the Lexus while under surveillance? I can't find the discovery page at the moment, but he was observed moving what appeared to be children's itens and placing said items into a bag.
Later, he was allowed to give his "gym bag" to his father.
Could that bag contain the blankets and stuffed animals?

CW was observed stopping at his truck during surveillance but I do not recall that what he moved, touched, or placed in a bag was ever identified. I also thought the bag removed from Lexus at the police station belonged to his Dad (travel bag), and he was allowed to retrieve it when police were taking him to a hotel. During his police confession, CW said the blankets were left along with bed sheet at the CERVI site and likely blew away. No record these items were ever recovered. MOO

 

[liltexans]

This article gives a broad overview of Cluster B personality disorders. Our verified psychologist, @stereopticons is the best person to weigh in with an informed opinion of CW (either Chris or Cindy) and a possible fit with any of these PDs.

DSM-5: The Ten Personality Disorders: Cluster B

 

[Layla123]

Hi Layla

Thanks for digging this out. I think this aspect is no longer up for discussion.

NK contacted the police first, even if their investigations had already revealed her as a lead.

I knew it had to be in those Discovery Documents, somewhere, I remembered hearing the District Attorney or one of the detectives say it at one of the press conferences, and with gratitude toward her, so I kept on reading until I found it. I knew it had to be in there!

 

[Mo Thuairim]

Exactly. And caveat: I don't know if he's a sociopath or psychopath. Probably a narcissist.

A particularly intelligent poster though, early on, challenged my notion that he probably was one of those things. She pointed out how he doesn't fit the criteria really for NPD or APD.

I wish we could've explored that more and other contradictions like that which could've pointed away from CW as a stone cold killer, rather than devolving into the baseless, "open-minded" hate-fest against poor Shanann, that I feel the debate about his possible innocence, became.

Because the contradictions are interesting. The questions about what a murderer of his own kids looks like or can look like, and how he did or didn't match, could've been productive and intellectually-driven.

I remember that. I think that was @Best of What's Around
I've dug out the posts I think you're referring to:
Found Deceased - CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #24

Found Deceased - CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #24

 

[liltexans]

He seems to look at things as black and white with no in between....very simple minded.
jmo

Well, that fits right in with having a borderline personality disorder.

DSM-5: The Ten Personality Disorders: Cluster B

People with Borderline Personality Disorder tend to view the world in terms of black-and-white, or all-or-nothing thinking. Their tendency to see the world in black-or-white (polarized) terms makes it easy for them to misinterpret the actions and motivations of others.

 

[curiouschat]

Yes I admit I haven't been this curious into other "FA" cases before to know if this is a pattern but he just seems strange and contradictory to me. I do believe he did it, and I do believe he has a cog (well a whole case of cogs) loose but I don't know when or how that happened. I may have been totally projecting what would make sense to me and not what was true for him but I felt he seemed to get very emotional when his parents gave statements and it seems like he hates disappointing or looking bad to people?

(This is not defending or praising him) Like it's just weird to me. It seems like all through interviews he doesn't want to look bad or for his coworkers to have to get involved. I wonder if he was at some point where he was absolutely going to disappoint someone and in his mind he was just going to make his family disappear to fix that problem. (Which yes I know is sick and makes no sense!)

I would actually be more surprised if he did this in an upfront confronting way of showing Shanann the dead kids before killing her verses trying to sneak up and kill her and maybe them from behind or with faces covered so they weren't seeing him, so in his odd mind he could never have to totally face what he was doing if no one else "knew"? It's still horrible horrible either way, but I hope she never had to see or know about the girls before, so I may just want to believe it happened that way.

Exactly. And caveat: I don't know if he's a sociopath or psychopath. Probably a narcissist.

A particularly intelligent poster though, early on, challenged my notion that he probably was one of those things. She pointed out how he doesn't fit the criteria really for NPD or APD.

I wish we could've explored that more and other contradictions like that which could've pointed away from CW as a stone cold killer, rather than devolving into the baseless, "open-minded" hate-fest against poor Shanann, that I feel the debate about his possible innocence, became.

Because the contradictions are interesting. The questions about what a murderer of his own kids looks like or can look like, and how he did or didn't match, could've been productive and intellectually-based.

 

[BingoBongo]

This is from the website of my ex fiances adult daughter. She is a psychotherpist and the adult child of a narcissist. I believe her grandmother was a narcissist as well, and helped turn her father (my ex fiance) into one.

"Children of narcissistic parents spend a great deal of time trying to figure out how to serve their parent’s needs. When (not if) the child comes up short, there is hell to pay. Shame, anxiety, and self hatred are just a few of the resulting injuries. As adults, these people tend to engage in chaotic and toxic relationships, fail to make their needs a priority, and have poor boundaries. After all, they were trained to be this way by the parent who was impossible to please, easy to anger, and whose needs always came first."

Much of the professional literature out there says that the adult child of a narc, may turn out to be a narc themselves, or go the opposite direction and become a co-dependent.

I believe CW is the child of a narcissistic parent (maybe even two). Between his upbringing, and possibly his mental makeup, he turned into the most evil of narcs - those with the ability to murder.

 

[LovesChocolate]

Has it been discussed that he was seen stopping by his work truck in the Lexus while under surveillance? I can't find the discovery page at the moment, but he was observed moving what appeared to be children's itens and placing said items into a bag.

Later, he was allowed to give his "gym bag" to his father.

Could that bag contain the blankets and stuffed animals?

I've wondered this, too. Where is the white bag with pink flowers?? Could his father have disposed of it?

I think the cadaver dogs would have given very hard commands or whatever it's called (alerts?) if any of them were dead and their bodies stored for hours in the house. No amount of cleaning would have removed the scent of three cadavers for that long a period. I tend to think he killed them around the time activity was recorded on the main floor which would be him moving about; 4:23am or just before.

MOO.

Ugh....I am picturing this. Do you know how long scent would remain in the beds, even after sheets were washed? I'm thinking if he committed the murders but then quickly removed the bodies, washed the sheets the following day as he did, that is why the dogs didn't alert there?

 

[mrjitty]

The thing about Bolte (and to a lesser extent the salacious details of NK) is that it doesn't really add anything to the prosecution case in terms of proving murder.

NK provides a motive. But as a witness her only real job would be to prove the extent of the affair.

Bolte perhaps adds to the picture of lying, but doesn't really prove anything in terms of a triple homicide.

 

[IAMWAN]

I knew it had to be in those Discovery Documents, somewhere, I remembered hearing the District Attorney or one of the detectives say it at one of the press conferences, and with gratitude toward her, so I kept on reading until I found it. I knew it had to be in there!

The person that the District Attorney thanked at the press conference was SW's friend, NUA, NOT NK, the mistress. It's so confusing with all of these similar names!

 

[NuttMegg]

Just a reminder for everyone that I'm putting together a detailed timeline from the discovery docs, so that no one else duplicates. As you can imagine it's taking a while, because of the number of pages to go through and writing the corresponding notes.

Hurry up!! (just kidding ) (Thank you Tortoise)

 

[Layla123]

The person that the District Attorney thanked at the press conference was SW's friend, NUA, NOT NK, the mistress. It's so confusing with all of these similar names!

Actually, I believe both were appreciated, but at different times at different press conferences. And NUA certainly deserved the highest praise possible. Wasn’t she brave?

 

[NuttMegg]

I read it that they were still 3 months behind on the mortgage? And that previously they had taken money out of his retirement to catch the mortgage up? Did I read it wrong?

Also I think it's hard to say that SW really made that much money. There is no proof of that. IMO I don't think they would have been struggling so much financially if she was making that amount of money. I am always suspicious of anyone in an MLM saying they make that much. Nothing against SW! She was a really hard worker.

If her own husband said she made as much as he did, why is it disputed?

 

[TxMother67]

I think the cadaver dogs would have given very hard commands or whatever it's called (alerts?) if any of them were dead and their bodies stored for hours in the house. No amount of cleaning would have removed the scent of three cadavers for that long a period. I tend to think he killed them around the time activity was recorded on the main floor which would be him moving about; 4:23am or just before.

MOO.

BBM Initally, I thought he had killed the girls first and then had overtaken Shannon at the top of the stairs/loft area/sofa where her phone was found. However, after reading the document dump, the scenario you described makes the most sense to me. It connects some crucial dots, imo. Im still wondering if Shannan was on the sofa when he strangled her, though. He states that he put her "back in bed" - who knows if that's truth or fiction. I can see her laying down, not wanting to disturb anyone, taking off her watch, the pants she was wearing, laying her phone next to her on the sofa and falling asleep. If she was lying on one side, the sofa ( and a blanket if one was used) would limit any movement she could make. After killing her, he takes her "back to bed" and rolls her up in a sheet. I just don't think he was thinking about her phone or watch and hiding them.( He left everything else(suitcase, purse, keys, shoes) out and the beds messy and unmade). I also feel, that if he did kill the girls after Shannon, that Bella may have heard some grunting or commotion and walked out into the loft and saw what was going on. Just thinking outloud- I waffle back and forth on the different scenarios and premeditation factors coming into play. Brain freeze! MOO

Edited to follow up on the quote: I DO think he killed them all around the same time if the dogs were correct. They would have alerted elsewhere in the house (their beds) if they had been dead a while.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

I read it that they were still 3 months behind on the mortgage? And that previously they had taken money out of his retirement to catch the mortgage up? Did I read it wrong?

Also I think it's hard to say that SW really made that much money. There is no proof of that. IMO I don't think they would have been struggling so much financially if she was making that amount of money. I am always suspicious of anyone in an MLM saying they make that much. Nothing against SW! She was a really hard worker.

PDF pages 520, & 529 Discovery pages 587 & 596

 

[violet101]

See Photos of 'Monster' Chris Watts & Mistress — Who Searched for Wedding Dresses Days Before Murders

 

[mrjitty]

This article gives a broad overview of Cluster B personality disorders. Our verified psychologist, @stereopticons is the best person to weigh in with an informed opinion of CW (either Chris or Cindy) and a possible fit with any of these PDs.

DSM-5: The Ten Personality Disorders: Cluster B

I recall this was discussed a lot in relation to Pistorius

In my highly unqualified opinion CW is somewhere in the APD zone

Especially with the absurd risk taking with no apparent thought to the consequences. IIRC this tends to be common with your 'dumb" sociopath.

They commit crazy crimes and then are surprised no one believes their silly explanations.

 

[gitana1]

It surprised me as I thought CW mom was more like SP's mom. I thought she probably spoiled him, made him the "golden child" etc. But it may have been the complete opposite

Or a mixture. SP's mom didn't really spoil him. She annihilated his identity. Cindy Anthony was the same. But anyone who criticized her child in the outside world was refuted.

In the home any independent thought or feeling that doesn't mirror the feelings of the parent, is annihilated. But when people claim their kid did something wrong, it's aggressively denied.

That creates a manipulative person who feels they can get away with murder and a person motivated to do so because they're sometimes incapable of expressing any true emotion or appearing less than perfect, due to narcissistic panic of being unmasked. So they can't get a divorce or give up custody of a child. Etc.

IMO.

 

[BingoBongo]

I remember that. I think that was @Best of What's Around
I've dug out the posts I think you're referring to:
Found Deceased - CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #24

Found Deceased - CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #24

Interesting!

One thing that came to me while reading his/her two posts, is that I do believe narcissists have moments of empathy, but generally only when that empathy "buys" them something. Either "love" from their family/friends, or a feeling of self-satisfaction.

 

[mrjitty]

I knew it had to be in those Discovery Documents, somewhere, I remembered hearing the District Attorney or one of the detectives say it at one of the press conferences, and with gratitude toward her, so I kept on reading until I found it. I knew it had to be in there!

Yes - it's significant IMO, in terms of the ultimate credibility of this witness at trial.

It is likely the defence might have been able to trip her up on the points where she tried to make herself look good. But the existence of 3 voluntary interviews plus the phone evidence means she would have been pretty rock solid in terms of proving a motive.