GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #60

[gitana1]

Maybe we are at cross purposes.

I agree he is lying and delusional - as sociopaths frequently are.

But he doesn't strike me as a narcissist in the same way as a Pistorius who positively reeks of it

Yeah I see what you're saying. As @stereopticons stated, he likely doesn't cleanly fit any personality disorder diagnosis and may simply be unique, having various elements of different ones, but not all.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

Hey everyone!

To the post above I had a mother-in-law like that in some respects, she was sweet, kind and nice but thought her son should put her before his wife. Needless to say it caused a lot of crap between us because he just could never say no to his mother or if she said or did something he could never say hey look Mom I am married now or set her straight in any shape or form. Me on the other hand am the total opposite. He was the baby of three in the family and a 7 year difference between his middle brother and him and she just wanted to hold on as long as she could.
On the other hand she loved ALL her grandchildren unconditionally!

It took my husband a couple of years to see how they were to me. His family is extremely close, will walk thru fire for each other and he thought I would be welcomed and become one of them, not seen as an outsider.

 

[Tortoise]

Especially AFTER a list of foods was given to the grandmother that should not be around the children.

That's no accident. That's intentional. And indeed, its evil.

It's crazy to me that after poor, murdered Shanann was given no quarter by some, was evisecerated based on rumor and gossip and innuendo due to bias and dislike, jealousy, and the whisperings of one who had motive to present her as evil, that NOW, NK and the Watts family are given every benefit of the doubt despite actual evidence that they either helped make poor Shanann's life a living hell before she died or in some way impeded the investigation into her and her children's' disappearance and death.

It just seems like the height of hypocrisy to me.

But since Shanann is dead why does it matter? Because it added untold misery onto Shanann's loved ones and continues to do so.

And because while the guilty plea ends the pretense of honestly debating his possible innocence, the defense of EVERYONE ELSE who destroyed this woman in life or in death, seems to be a very subtle continuation of the same theme of victim bashing. And it seems to me to be motivated by the same intense dislike of the dead woman.

A very large MOO.

When my youngest son was at primary school the school had a child with a severe nut allergy. Every family was asked to not even let our children have nut cereal for breakfast at home because nuts on the breath could cause the child to have a fatal reaction. That is the level of care and love I expect from all sane adults. No excuses.

 

[Thinker Belle]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but I just read in the discovery report that in an interview with the director of the Primrose school that the girls were set to attend, the director stated that Shannans mother called to see if the girls were in school between 0800 and 0830 that morning of the 13th. Does anyone know of this has been verified by Shannans mom that this was actually her that made this call ? I just found it strange for some reason..

 

[gitana1]

Thanks, liltexans! Hope you're feeling better!

I'm hopelessly behind on this thread, but let me make two statements about personality disorders:
1) they don't appear out of nowhere. In other mental illnesses like depression or even psychotic disorders, you don't necessarily have symptoms for your entire life. A personality disorder develops over the entire life. For example, a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder requires conduct problems before age 15.
2) One can have traits of a personality disorder without meeting full criteria. If we're honest with ourselves, most of us have some traits of some disorders, but it's usually not enough to cause significant problems or meet full criteria for diagnosis.

These things are relevant to my opinion on CW (Chris, specifically, because I don't know anything about Cindy's childhood) because 1) if there had been reports of conduct problems in his childhood, we likely would have heard about them by now, because they may help explain this senseless crime, and 2) I think he has some traits of several cluster B disorders but (with my usual caveat of I can't diagnose someone over the internet!) it doesn't seem that he meets full criteria for any of them. Personality disorders can be devastating and affect every aspect of one's life. If he had full borderline PD, he almost certainly would have a history of failed relationships (not been married to the same person for 6? years) and/or suicide attempts.

This is a bit of a tangent, but something to remember is that the DSM-5 and diagnostic criteria were largely created for insurance purposes (you have to classify something to bill it) and mental health is much more of a spectrum than specific definitive categories.

Anyway, if you have questions for me, I'm happy to take them, just tag me because I have a lot going on and am having a hard time keeping up!

Diagnoses for insurance purposes! Interesting to look at these disorders from that perspective.

I think we all want to fit someone like this in a specific diagnostic box because we want order and certainty. I'm guilty of that. It makes my mind feel better.

It is helpful to realize there probably won't be one definitive answer.

 

[The Farm]

A history of the death penalty in Colorado

Colorado has the DP but they have not actually used it since 1997.

 

[MassGuy]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but I just read in the discovery report that in an interview with the director of the Primrose school that the girls were set to attend, the director stated that Shannans mother called to see if the girls were in school between 0800 and 0830 that morning of the 13th. Does anyone know of this has been verified by Shannans mom that this was actually her that made this call ? I just found it strange for some reason..

Why would this be strange? She was trying to figure out where her daughter was.

 

[gitana1]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but I just read in the discovery report that in an interview with the director of the Primrose school that the girls were set to attend, the director stated that Shannans mother called to see if the girls were in school between 0800 and 0830 that morning of the 13th. Does anyone know of this has been verified by Shannans mom that this was actually her that made this call ? I just found it strange for some reason..

I think she was freaking out early on when Shanann wasn't answering anyone.

 

[Gardenista]

HLN on the case

 

[Tuliptiptoe]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but I just read in the discovery report that in an interview with the director of the Primrose school that the girls were set to attend, the director stated that Shannans mother called to see if the girls were in school between 0800 and 0830 that morning of the 13th. Does anyone know of this has been verified by Shannans mom that this was actually her that made this call ? I just found it strange for some reason..

Not strange to me.

SW and her mom were very close and spoke everyday. In the docs SW's mom was worried and suspicious of CW the second SW didn't answer her phone, well before NUA went to the house.

I could easily see her checking if the girls had been dropped off desperate for any sign of any of them.

Even though everyone was saying how great CW, somewhere deep down they must have been aware who he was because everyone close to SW immediately knew something was wrong and that CW was responsible.

Moo

 

[kkdj]

I think some people don't like to be told no or what to do. That's how the peanut story strikes me...as a control issue with CW's mom. I'm sure there's many more stories SW could tell that relate. Very frustrating, self centered and lacking insight imo.

 

[Thinker Belle]

Why would this be strange? She was trying to figure out where her daughter was.

That she called that early (only 6 hours after SW got home) before anybody suspected anything was wrong. I may be really far off base but my immediate thought was that someone else may have made that call and was pretending to be her mom. That’s why I was curious if her mom had actually confirmed she made that call? I couldn’t find it in discovery but wondered if someone else had?

 

[MassGuy]

Basically, there were no other proven affairs other than NK.


Fact Check: Did Christopher Watts have another affair?

 

[Tuliptiptoe]

That she called that early (only 6 hours after SW got home) before anybody suspected anything was wrong. I may be really far off base but my immediate thought was that someone else may have made that call and was pretending to be her mom. That’s why I was curious if her mom had actually confirmed she made that call? I couldn’t find it in discovery but wondered if someone else had?

First day of kindergarten is a big deal. She was likely expecting to talk to them before they left.

And SW was not just answering her phone, it was turned off which was highly unusual for her.

Moo

 

[cattlekate]

Sandra has never give us a reason to doubt her word!!

Actually, I doubt the veracity of Sandra’s letter, as shown in Discovery pages 1400 - 1409.

For instance, she said the bankruptcy was due to medical bills. Only $4749.09 of the BK was medical. $12,827.75 was retail junk, mostly from buying sprees right after that house was purchased by Chris. $41,650 was various credit cards, some from NC. $11,245.37 was student loans. The neck surgery wasn’t until after the 2015 BK.

One could argue that some of the $41,650 credit card debt was due to medical, but Chris had a health policy at $476.67 employee cost through Anadarko. I know Anadarko employees - their cost is about 1/3 of the actual policy. $467.67 per month in 2015 is a gold plan.

Another instance is how Sandra confuses peanuts with tree nut allergies. Shanann fed the girls peanut butter products. If Sandra is confused about if it was peanuts or tree nuts, then her house must’ve been a potential hazard as well.

Another instance is the assertion that Chris had genital “cancer,” discovered right after they were married in 2012. He’d be age 27. That’s pretty odd.

I truly do not mean to start a fight. And I’ve got things to do today so I’m not going to go back and forth and argue.

But I’m posting this because I find it incredibly disturbing that Cindy Watts is being called “evil” and having a “dark heart” by posters, when clearly are many versions of what transpired.

Nothing will be learned from this tragedy if people choose to believe everything is black and white.

I believe there are a lot of answers about “why could this happen” in the Watts’ financial and medical records, which we are not privy to. Perhaps eventually they will come out, and there might be some shades of grey which will help people understand ways to prevent another tragedy like this from occurring.

 

[Thinker Belle]

Just thinking out loud! I did not realize shannans mom knew something was wrong that early on.

 

[Thinker Belle]

First day of kindergarten is a big deal. She was likely expecting to talk to them before they left.

And SW was not just answering her phone, it was turned off which was highly unusual for her.

Moo

Great point, thank you! It does make sense that she was likely expecting SW to call before they got to school and worried when she didn’t get that call.

 

[MassGuy]

That she called that early (only 6 hours after SW got home) before anybody suspected anything was wrong. I may be really far off base but my immediate thought was that someone else may have made that call and was pretending to be her mom. That’s why I was curious if her mom had actually confirmed she made that call? I couldn’t find it in discovery but wondered if someone else had?

This was supposed to be the kids’ first day of school. Perhaps she called Shanann to see how things went that morning and became worried after being unable to contact her.

According to the school, she called an hour after Chris called to say the kids would not be attending after all. She then called two more times during the course of the day.

Had someone else called pretending to be her, I’m sure LE would have documented it.

 

[Stripehaven]

Put yourself in NK’s shoes. All of a sudden you’re famous. Everyone in the world wants to know everything there is to know about you, and not for a good reason, but for a very horrible, tragic, despicable, disgusting reason. Wouldn’t you want to know what to expect? What your future might hold? How to take care of yourself? NK found out Amber Frey wrote a book. She was curious how well the book did. I don’t see anything wrong with that. Doesn’t mean NK wants to write a book, too.

NK also might have been looking for a way to give her side of the story if need be - if she was accused of being part of the murder plan, etc. I can’t imagine being in her shoes so I am reluctant to judge her on this issue.

 

[x_files]

Especially AFTER a list of foods was given to the grandmother that should not be around the children.

That's no accident. That's intentional. And indeed, its evil.

It's crazy to me that after poor, murdered Shanann was given no quarter by some, was evisecerated based on rumor and gossip and innuendo due to bias and dislike, jealousy, and the whisperings of one who had motive to present her as evil, that NOW, NK and the Watts family are given every benefit of the doubt despite actual evidence that they either helped make poor Shanann's life a living hell before she died or in some way impeded the investigation into her and her children's' disappearance and death.

It just seems like the height of hypocrisy to me.

But since Shanann is dead why does it matter? Because it added untold misery onto Shanann's loved ones and continues to do so.

And because while the guilty plea ends the pretense of honestly debating his possible innocence, the defense of EVERYONE ELSE who destroyed this woman in life or in death, seems to be a very subtle continuation of the same theme of victim bashing. And it seems to me to be motivated by the same intense dislike of the dead woman.

A very large MOO.

If CeCe ingested peanuts and died would Cindy be charged for negligence? Is it possible she hoped she'd get sick? or even die? How deep does her hatred go for SW?