GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #60

[stereopticons]

This article gives a broad overview of Cluster B personality disorders. Our verified psychologist, @stereopticons is the best person to weigh in with an informed opinion of CW (either Chris or Cindy) and a possible fit with any of these PDs.

DSM-5: The Ten Personality Disorders: Cluster B

Thanks, liltexans! Hope you're feeling better!

I'm hopelessly behind on this thread, but let me make two statements about personality disorders:
1) they don't appear out of nowhere. In other mental illnesses like depression or even psychotic disorders, you don't necessarily have symptoms for your entire life. A personality disorder develops over the entire life. For example, a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder requires conduct problems before age 15.
2) One can have traits of a personality disorder without meeting full criteria. If we're honest with ourselves, most of us have some traits of some disorders, but it's usually not enough to cause significant problems or meet full criteria for diagnosis.

These things are relevant to my opinion on CW (Chris, specifically, because I don't know anything about Cindy's childhood) because 1) if there had been reports of conduct problems in his childhood, we likely would have heard about them by now, because they may help explain this senseless crime, and 2) I think he has some traits of several cluster B disorders but (with my usual caveat of I can't diagnose someone over the internet!) it doesn't seem that he meets full criteria for any of them. Personality disorders can be devastating and affect every aspect of one's life. If he had full borderline PD, he almost certainly would have a history of failed relationships (not been married to the same person for 6? years) and/or suicide attempts.

This is a bit of a tangent, but something to remember is that the DSM-5 and diagnostic criteria were largely created for insurance purposes (you have to classify something to bill it) and mental health is much more of a spectrum than specific definitive categories.

Anyway, if you have questions for me, I'm happy to take them, just tag me because I have a lot going on and am having a hard time keeping up!

 

[Mercedes]

What I can't comprehend, is that he smothered them both with a pillow after he had told the children that their mother would be home soon. And perhaps the children thought, their last dying thoughts, that their mother was killing them and suffocating them. I just can't fathom this.

Personally, I wouldn’t go there. The facts we know are horrible enough.

 

[Tortoise]

RSBM for focus


I'm no expert but would like to share my theory about the contradiction in behaviour. From what I've learned about NPD/BPD, these individuals are stuck emotionally in their toddler years. So, with this in mind, think back about a 2 or 3 yr old (these are the egocentric years and is a normal part of development) cuddling a puppy or a doll, they can be warm and gentle towards it, but the minute the puppy tries to escape or nips them, or the dress doesn't fit the doll or isn't meeting expectations, w/e, they can just drop it, throw it, discard it. This is normal for this age but in a teen or a grown adult, very frightening, it'd be a hidden part of their personality seeping through behind closed doors.

CW had less than 5 yrs with his two daughters and he was already exasperated. Shanann was able to openly express her frustration with the girls, this is understandable they were a handful, but I think, CW kept his seething emotions private. I'm sorry if this sounds simple but it's the only way I can understand this condition.

That fits with my thinking. I said at the time I thought I saw a very young boy (in CW) at sentencing with that one tear of shame for his father - not shame at what he had done but shame at being a disappointment to his dad. IMO.

 

[Jessthinkin]

The only thing related to that which I feel certain of at this point is that he coldly and methodically planned this. He saw no other way out in which he could remain a "good guy", keep his new and exciting relationship and not fall into financial ruin again.

What makes me think he didn't kill the kids first is that he wouldn't want to do anything that could cause Shanann to discover the plan and fight, because I don't think he would risk Shanann coming home and discovering the kids are dead.

I do not think he purposefully wanted her to know her kids were dead. I think he just wanted them all gone.

What makes me think he might've killed them first is texting her pictures of them from earlier in the day when she asked for pictures of them in bed. If he killed them maybe they looked stiff to him. Or he feared they might.

We will never know.

I've gone back and forth on this a bit but I'm leaning now towards him not killing them until closer to his 5:30 AM departure time, simply because the cadaver dogs didn't alert to actionable smells in the house.... not sure how long a body has to have been dead to create "alertable" smells, but I've read that dogs can alert with 98% accuracy, within 3 hours of death, on a piece of carpet, if the body had lain on the carpet for ten minutes. The CSI death dogs: Sniffing out the truth behind the crime-scene

Or, maybe he immediately put them into the black plastic trash bags? Not sure if that daptures "alertable" smells... :/

 

[liltexans]

She's saying to Bella 'look at you, look at you', and then to Cece, 'and look at this one'.

Yep. I noticed that the first time I watched that video. I remember pointing it out to @Tricia because it was such a perfect example of Cindy’s obvious preference for Bella.

 

[scdiv]

She's saying to Bella 'look at you, look at you', and then to Cece, 'and look at this one'.

@SaguaroSpirit - SW's mom Sandy left a nice written comment on the video a few days ago.

 

[Jupiter05]

She's saying to Bella 'look at you, look at you', and then to Cece, 'and look at this one'.

And Shanann's mom posted "Beautiful!"

 

[Seattle1]

I added to it. Check out #6.

6. Too good to be true. Says all the right things. Does all the right things. How is this dude not in a committed relationship already? Not ever willing to admit to anything negative about himself. Rarely shows a negative side like anger or impatience.

Can't leave out the love bomber!! Just recently I learned from a co-worker about a man she met on dating site that was too good to be true. As she described his personality, their dates, etc., the red flags were all there! I looked up his profile which only included the following: I like to run, swim, watch movies, and cooking. That was it! It was so typical narc to me where they cannot commit to a trait, or provide any "real information" about themselves so they can invent themselves to best suit their target. MOO

 

[Allabouttrial]

Thanks, liltexans! Hope you're feeling better!

I'm hopelessly behind on this thread, but let me make two statements about personality disorders:
1) they don't appear out of nowhere. In other mental illnesses like depression or even psychotic disorders, you don't necessarily have symptoms for your entire life. A personality disorder develops over the entire life. For example, a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder requires conduct problems before age 15.
2) One can have traits of a personality disorder without meeting full criteria. If we're honest with ourselves, most of us have some traits of some disorders, but it's usually not enough to cause significant problems or meet full criteria for diagnosis.

These things are relevant to my opinion on CW (Chris, specifically, because I don't know anything about Cindy's childhood) because 1) if there had been reports of conduct problems in his childhood, we likely would have heard about them by now, because they may help explain this senseless crime, and 2) I think he has some traits of several cluster B disorders but (with my usual caveat of I can't diagnose someone over the internet!) it doesn't seem that he meets full criteria for any of them. Personality disorders can be devastating and affect every aspect of one's life. If he had full borderline PD, he almost certainly would have a history of failed relationships (not been married to the same person for 6? years) and/or suicide attempts.

This is a bit of a tangent, but something to remember is that the DSM-5 and diagnostic criteria were largely created for insurance purposes (you have to classify something to bill it) and mental health is much more of a spectrum than specific definitive categories.

Anyway, if you have questions for me, I'm happy to take them, just tag me because I have a lot going on and am having a hard time keeping up!

@stereopticons Thank you, very helpful. Not going to ask you to diagnose him but from your experiences what is it that makes a seemingly caring, kind and submissive person do this then? I can't imagine that it just came out of nowhere

 

[Layla123]

I'm a bit behind on the post because I've also been reading the discovery still but I did see things that were adding up to show that Chris Watts premeditated these murders and I wanted to say that the way that he was being tolerable on the last weekend planning a trip away I found similar to somebody who is, from things I've studied, preparing to commit suicide where they come to grips with the situation and and has a type of euphoria so to speak and I also wonder if the trip might have been a plan for an in quotes accident the more I read the more I think he is a vile SB with no heart no ba@#$ and no brain and Shannan was definitely way above his low life league in every way!! And to look at his new mugshot I can't help but think he looks really creepy,old and jiggly and I'm sorry but I hope Nicole is wondering what she ever saw in him.... but I cannot say that she was a naive victim of this because from what I've read of the discovery she definitely was NOT!!!

It seemed to me that CW presented himself to NK as a husband on his way out the door of his marriage, same story all cheaters tell. NK believed him. Then NK fell head over heels, but little by little realized CW wasn’t as footloose and fancy free as he initially said he was, he was very much in a committed relationship with his wife and family, same story for all cheaters. By this time NK wanted him all to herself, still believing him that SW was a horrible woman, it was all her fault, and she hated SW for making him so miserable, same story for all cheaters. Near the end NK was getting to the point where she was telling him to make a choice, either work on your marriage, or get yourself free. Same story for all cheaters. Some get themselves free, some don’t. The drama goes on and on, I’ve heard it a thousand times, but most cheaters don’t kill their families. I do think NK was a victim because CW lied to her over and over again. He was the one who broke his marriage vows, he was the one who killed his family. NK fell in love with him. Haven’t you ever had a friend who fell in love with a committed man? Same story, every time. But women continue to do it every day. They all think it’s going to work out differently for them.

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

I'm a bit behind on the post because I've also been reading the discovery still but I did see things that were adding up to show that Chris Watts premeditated these murders and I wanted to say that the way that he was being tolerable on the last weekend planning a trip away I found similar to somebody who is, from things I've studied, preparing to commit suicide where they come to grips with the situation and and has a type of euphoria so to speak and I also wonder if the trip might have been a plan for an in quotes accident the more I read the more I think he is a vile SB with no heart no ba@#$ and no brain and Shannan was definitely way above his low life league in every way!! And to look at his new mugshot I can't help but think he looks really creepy,old and jiggly and I'm sorry but I hope Nicole is wondering what she ever saw in him.... but I cannot say that she was a naive victim of this because from what I've read of the discovery she definitely was NOT!!!

I think she saw her perfect match, a prize to steal from another woman. Some women are just like that. They get a kick out of it.

 

[stereopticons]

I think what can be looked for is a combination of the following:

1. Do they have normal, intimate attachments with others - the ability to have strong, significant bonds with romantic interests, parents, friends, other relatives, but bonds that don't cross boundaries and include a mutual respect for each other's autonomy and identity as an individual? Look for true close friends who know a lot about them. Healthy familial relationships. Ex-girlfriends or mates that they had more than a mere dating relationship.

2. Do they have a strong sense of identity? Do they have a personality and their own opinions? Does their personality and opinions tend to shift a lot to mirror the people they're with? Quiet is okay. But quiet with a shifting identity and shifting likes and dislikes or with an inability to voice an opinion? Red flag, maybe.

3. Do they take responsibility for their failures? Do they have any failures?

4. Do they ever take the initiative on anything?

5. Is there evidence of family dysfunction like abuse, neglect, alcohol or drug abuse, enmeshment, personality disordered (or "crazy") parents and if so, has the potential mate been able to recognize the issue and set appropriate boundaries? Like not allowing the parents to dictate how they raise their kids or what their wedding will be like. Not allowing their parents to insult their mate in the their presence and leaving if they do. Minimizing or controlling contact with destructive relations. Not allowing their kids to be left alone with destructive relatives. Not allowing parents to show up unannounced or call repeatedly without warning AND disrupt daily life a lot, with demands that the potential mate drop everything and talk to the person? Stuff like that.

6. Too good to be true. Says all the right things. Does all the right things. How is this dude not in a committed relationship already? Not ever willing to admit to anything negative about himself. Rarely shows a negative side like anger or impatience.

This is really great, gitana! I really think it's more helpful than diagnostic criteria for a PD or other disorder, because while all of these would help identify CW, I don't think he fits any specific disorder.

 

[curiouschat]

Yeah I think that /is/ the Watts Grandma? And I just see a grandmother excited to see her grandchildren and its a very sad situation all around to me. I have so many older people in my family that are far too casual and blaise about childproofing for my taste and I can honestly see them brushing things off or not taking allergies that seriously without being outright hatefully trying to endanger a grandkid as I guess some are accusing her of?

 

[NuttMegg]

Check out the comment Shanann's mom wrote on this video

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154237297441935

How do i see the comments on the video?

 

[Allabouttrial]

Can't leave out the love bomber!! Just recently I learned from a co-worker about a man she met on dating site that was too good to be true. As she described his personality, their dates, etc., the red flags were all there! I looked up his profile which only included the following: I like to run, swim, watch movies, and cooking. That was it! It was so typical narc to me where they cannot commit to a trait, or provide any "real information" about themselves so they can invent themselves to best suit their target. MOO

Or maybe just someone presenting a better version of themselves, like most other people on these sites.

 

[JusticeforHeather91]

I’ve been following this case with you guys since the beginning. I’m utterly heartbroken for Shannans family.

Today, I brought my ten month old son to the doctors. I sat down on the chair with him in my lap, as we waited for the doctor. Immediately as I looked up was colored artwork from children they had covering the walls. The first piece I look at was colored so beautifully and in cute little girlie handwriting was the words “BELLA” proudly written across it.

My thoughts immediately went to poor Bella and Celeste and how they never got the opportunity to even attend Kindergarten, let alone most likely really even have the chance to write their own names and share their artwork with Mommy and Shananns family. I held back tears as I continuously kept staring at that picture and what beautiful lives inmate Watts stole from them.

 

[TxMother67]

Anytime this guy has to think, he lies. When he lies, he peppers his sentences with “likes.”

This makes my head head hurt.

It made my head hurt to hit "like"on your post!

 

[NuttMegg]

It's a written comment. I'll fix my post to reflect that.

I'm pretty sure that's Cindy in the video.

 

[MsBetsy]

Yes the transcript from polygraph is fascinating. I'm still bemused that he appeared to have no qualms about polygraph - didn't lawyer up - supreme confidence or utter idiocy? (I think I know the answer...) SA Coder's work is sublime. Hope we get to see interview.

Me too. I think he thought he should just act normal ( well, normal to him.) and probably figured if he was compliant and willing to do the polygraph they wouldn't suspect him.
His responses just seem so simple and childlike. ( I didn't do anything to make them disappear. I promise!)
He certainly did not do any research on detective work or interrogation. One of their first clues was probably his admitting that bringing up the separation may have caused her to run off, and he felt in some way responsible. When they explained the difference between physically making someone disappear or indirectly causing it, he says something like, yeah, I feel like a real ***hole or something like that.
People who kill family members often blame themselves indirectly, while trying to deceive investigators. They may say, if only I hadn't said that, maybe she wouldn't be dead right now. I feel like its my fault. When in reality they killed them. This must have been a huge red flag for them. One of many.
Imo

 

[MvD]

Has there been any official statement about more info being released? I keep seeing people talking about it, but can't seem to find the source.
Tia!

((Please delete if this isn't allowed))