GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #70

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Heaven Leigh said:
When he was talking about his long ride to the Plant when asked what he was thinking .. He says "Couldn't I have ..like saved my girls life"? huh?
He is thinking this before killing them. ?? flipping weirdo.
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I think he’s talking about it in retrospect, but that doesn’t make it any less absurd.

He could have saved their lives, by simply not killing them in the first place.

He’s basically not taking responsibility, in that he is essentially saying that he was not in control, and powerless to stop this unseen guiding force, hell bent on committing murder.

It’s laughable in its ridiculousness.
 
gitana1 said:
Yes and I think as someone has recently said, it's a spectrum.

We've discussed this in prior cases a lot. I've noted before how even some of the most frightening, psychopathic serial killers who happily confess and eagerly describe most of their murders, won't admit to or describe certain ones. Ones in which they out of character, covered the victim's face.

It's like there's remorse there. Shame.

It's just not black and white.

But this case is so confounding because there wasn't one hint. He never seemed to have switched off the empathy until the very end.
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I saw a YT video from a therapist who surmised that his week visit to NC was his test to see if he wanted his family, if he still had emotions for them. Another analogy is like he is a baby that lacks object permanence - out of sight, out of mind while they were gone and the visit did not rekindle any attachments to them. He was like this when with his parents when he moved to Colorado.
 
Well I have not finished all the interviews yet but I'm not yet convinced that CW took the girls to the oil site in the truck alive. For one thing, the detective was the first to say "Were they still alive?" and CW says yes so quietly I can't hear (perhaps he was nodding his head?). He starts talking in his halting fake crying soft voice. And partial sentences. I think he didn't have a convincing story planned for why and how he killed the girls. They had to pepper him with leading questions and drag the story out of him. I think he only agreed about the girls being alive after he put SW in the truck because he thought that was what the detectives wanted to hear (they suggested it after all just as they suggested to him SW might have killed the girls first). They offered CW a temporary reprieve from telling when and where and how he murdered the babies and he took it IMHO.

In fact, I've never thought the girls were killed first but so far this interview has stunningly convinced me that they were already dead before SW was strangled to death in her sleep. IMO he has denied every shred of anything that can be remotely construed as planning-- even things that are obvious lies. He lies precisely because he planned this, he thought about it, he dreamed about it and then he did it. Then he had to lie about what happened with the girls because what's more evil than murdering your children because they witnessed you murder mommy? Murdering them before you murder their mommy. In cold blood. With no provocation at all. Because murdering them all was his plan all along. If there is anything that CW has had time to figure out by talking to others in prison and reading the news it's that there is really no good explanation for why he murdered his innocent toddlers. I think that is why he started his fake crying and saying he didn't want to talk about it-- because he knew he would look monstrous no matter what story he told. He can blame SW and say she provoked him all he wants but he knew that wouldn't fly when it came to murdering the children.

I think he was ready to grasp at whatever explanation the detectives gave. 6 months from now they should do another interview and say, "Now Chris we know the girls were dead first." "Will you tell us what really happened?" Just to see what he says. He will probably deny it and sputter another tale out if lead again. If one were to suggest that maybe SW made him angry when she said her flight was delayed and ask if he murdered the girls to get revenge on her (so she will never see them again) he will probably agree to THAT scenario next time. Because I'm convinced CW wants to say whatever will get him out of the hot seat. He will say what he thinks they want to hear him say-- as long as it doesn't involve him admitting to being the inhuman monster everyone knows him to be. As long as it doesn't involve him actually taking the blame for his actions. He blames everyone else for what happened. Things don't happen because of him. Things are always happening to him. And he's just a hapless fool who doesn't know why he would climb on top of his pregnant wife in bed to have a 30 minute conversation (when she supposedly said he was hurting the baby). He just did it. He doesn't know why he couldn't stop strangling her from 2-4 minutes, he just did it. Just a powerless fool. :rolleyes: Yeah, right. :mad:

MOO.
 
Heaven Leigh said:
When he was talking about his long ride to the Plant when asked what he was thinking .. He says "Couldn't I have ..like saved my girls life"? huh?
He is thinking this before killing them. ?? flipping weirdo.
Click to expand...
I went huh too when I heard that, it’s like he was inferring there was no alternative to killing them.
 
I don't believe he gave any thought into Bellas death over Cece. He had just pulled SWs body out the door and I think Cece was sitting next to the truck door so she went first.

As for his comments on strangling SW.. He's holding back a lot of information. I don't think he can go there in his head regarding what he did. As that will unmask him. All through this interview he's able to play the good guy (eg he confessed, he plead guilty to spare everyone) and play the 'I was overtaken by rage' card.

I question the level of premeditation in this. I still believe it was premeditated (or at least fantastised about) and he used sex to lure her at some point nto that bed and to help relax and disarm her (eg stop her questioning him about their marriage given they weren't sleeping in the same bed for weeks etc). With her disarmed he could murder her that night. You also don't talk straddled over someone for 20 minutes then fly into a rage?

I also think he had previously thought about dumping the girls in oil tanks. You don't just spontaneously rock up to an oil site with your dead wife and murder your kids, then instantly know to take them up to oil tanks and dump them? Natural thing to me would be to dig a bigger hole and bury them together.

As for his mental state, I do believe he felt intense rage and hatred. That's usually the case with family annihilators. It would be years of pent up rage. What I'm not buying is his line that he felt rage towards anyone in his path that morning (eg the girls) . Doesn't explain why he didn't kill himself given his claims to care about hurting or killing other people when he was raging towards anyone in his way??

He is incredibly narcasstic..insanely so. Mr good guy. I'm not buying any of his crying and stuff. If the report on his IQ is correct than that is an important factor in this case. Most criminals are lower functioning and it shows. People with higher intellectual functioning have greater ability to manipulate emotions and speech etc to say what others want to hear. They can be dangerous.

I believe a lot of what he is saying regarding the story.. Particularly the bits where he is coherent and can elaborate with ease. He has issues when asked about the actual crimes (typical for offenders) and deflects quite often, part of that will be because if he goes there his mask comes undone.

Those poor poor girls.. Especially wee Bella.. He would have been crazy driving out there too like a raging maniac. They would have been terrified beyond belief. I'm 99% certain he said yes when she asked if the same thing would happen to her. Sick .
 
The individual in my immediate circle is a mix of things. She has 'shame' in the sense that as a true Narcissist, she cannot fail, be imperfect, or not be the false image of herself in her own disordered mind, so it's more a sense of humiliation at being under scrutiny, or getting caught, that she later expresses in vindictive rage at whoever threatens exposure of her, if even by simply seeing into her. She can appear thick as a plank, confused, clueless, and innocently unaware of what's going on around her. She lies so smoothly that it's difficult to tell where the transition from truth to lie/lie to truth is. She can seem friendly and unassuming and perfectly 'normal', even when lying to law enforcement. But there's always something off. And she is chillingly cruel, often with a smile on her face. So she's also psychopathic.

Her story telling is toddler-like. Lots of rambling and inconsequential details, then very little about the big event, then back to filler details and distractions to tie up her story, which ends like a book a child would write. No emotion throughout this farce.

I don't believe that CW had a conversation with SW. I think he killed her from behind because that was the easiest way. I'm not totally caught up, so is there evidence that the children were killed in the truck, or could they have been killed at home? He may be intentionally creating distance between the murder of SW and the kids. Based on my witness of how these people lie, there is always distance in time and geography in elements of their storytelling, often to manage 'shame', portions of the crime they hope to cover from the view of LE, or to bait and switch so they remain in control of the story. They always keep a few cards to play later if they need them.
 
30:ish he’s starting to talk about reading to the girls at night and sounds teary / his voice has changed, moo.

34:51 - Interesting how he says “I know it’s wrong to say you wish you’d never met somebody” (re: NK)— gee, did you think it was wrong to kill your entire family including a pregnant woman and two little girls?

“I know it’s wrong...”

Interesting use of words.

ETA: This demonstrates he has the awareness of considering what is right and what is wrong, imo.
 
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Gardener1850 said:
Well I have not finished all the interviews yet but I'm not yet convinced that CW took the girls to the oil site in the truck alive. For one thing, the detective was the first to say "Were they still alive?" and CW says yes so quietly I can't hear (perhaps he was nodding his head?). He starts talking in his halting fake crying soft voice. And partial sentences. I think he didn't have a convincing story planned for why and how he killed the girls. They had to pepper him with leading questions and drag the story out of him. I think he only agreed about the girls being alive after he put SW in the truck because he thought that was what the detectives wanted to hear (they suggested it after all just as they suggested to him SW might have killed the girls first). They offered CW a temporary reprieve from telling when and where and how he murdered the babies and he took it IMHO.

In fact, I've never thought the girls were killed first but so far this interview has stunningly convinced me that they were already dead before SW was strangled to death in her sleep. IMO he has denied every shred of anything that can be remotely construed as planning-- even things that are obvious lies. He lies precisely because he planned this, he thought about it, he dreamed about it and then he did it. Then he had to lie about what happened with the girls because what's more evil than murdering your children because they witnessed you murder mommy? Murdering them before you murder their mommy. In cold blood. With no provocation at all. Because murdering them all was his plan all along. If there is anything that CW has had time to figure out by talking to others in prison and reading the news it's that there is really no good explanation for why he murdered his innocent toddlers. I think that is why he started his fake crying and saying he didn't want to talk about it-- because he knew he would look monstrous no matter what story he told. He can blame SW and say she provoked him all he wants but he knew that wouldn't fly when it came to murdering the children.

I think he was ready to grasp at whatever explanation the detectives gave. 6 months from now they should do another interview and say, "Now Chris we know the girls were dead first." "Will you tell us what really happened?" Just to see what he says. He will probably deny it and sputter another tale out if lead again. If one were to suggest that maybe SW made him angry when she said her flight was delayed and ask if he murdered the girls to get revenge on her (so she will never see them again) he will probably agree to THAT scenario next time. Because I'm convinced CW wants to say whatever will get him out of the hot seat. He will say what he thinks they want to hear him say-- as long as it doesn't involve him admitting to being the inhuman monster everyone knows him to be. As long as it doesn't involve him actually taking the blame for his actions. He blames everyone else for what happened. Things don't happen because of him. Things are always happening to him. And he's just a hapless fool who doesn't know why he would climb on top of his pregnant wife in bed to have a 30 minute conversation (when she supposedly said he was hurting the baby). He just did it. He doesn't know why he couldn't stop strangling her from 2-4 minutes, he just did it. Just a powerless fool. :rolleyes: Yeah, right. :mad:

MOO.
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I’m absolutely convinced that the opposite is true, and they were alive.

The detail was too specific to be a lie, to include:

Bella’s comment about the smell of Shanann’s body.

The interactions between CW and the kids.

Bella unbuckling her seatbelt.

There was more than that, but that’s what I remember.

If he was going to lie about this, it would be something self serving.

This wasn’t.

It was as detailed as it was horrific, and I totally buy it.
 
margarita25 said:
30:ish he’s starting to talk about reading to the girls at night and sounds teary / his voice has changed.

34:51 - Interesting he says “I know it’s wrong to say you wish you’d never met somebody..” (re: NK)— gee, did you think it might be wrong to kill your entire family including a pregnant woman and two little girls?

“I know it’s wrong...”

Interesting use of words.
Click to expand...

He knows it wrong, but has no emotion about it..... MOO
 
Heaven Leigh said:
When he was talking about his long ride to the Plant when asked what he was thinking .. He says "Couldn't I have ..like saved my girls life"? huh?
He is thinking this before killing them. ?? flipping weirdo.
Click to expand...

He could have if he was willing to take the heat (and criticism) for killing their mother but he wasn't so they had to die.

The "....like" lets you know he had actually already made the decision. One of his little quirks that screams, "I'm about to lie!"

I wish a Statement Analysis expert would examine everything he said from the get-go. So many obvious lies!
 
Jessthinkin said:
And I'm wondering if they didn't spend most of the time at his house, versus at her place like CW says. His place is closer to work for both of them, at the very least, and would also explain the July 4 "whose house were they at" discrepancy...
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Just my opinion from observations in my years on the planet...the Ho never just visits the family home with no sex. She is there to check out her new territory and claims it by having sex there. She checks out the life she wants to move in to. She checks out her competition's decor, personal items, etc and has sex on top of all of it to mark her territory. Just sayin'.
 
Steelhead said:
Gotta love Tammy! "They're asking for spiritual advice from . . . . . .you?" (When CW is talking about people writing to him)
LOL
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Ha ha!!

Colorfuel said:
His behavioral default appears to be to look affable and agreeable and functional. I wouldn’t assume from this interview that he’s enjoying prison. I think he’s really, really angry at his parents, for example, but shows this only passive-aggressively.
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Hmm. That's an interesting take. It could be very true.

Earlier I theorized a lot about possible, simmering rage and resentment that could've come from not having a fully formed identity, just going through the motions and living someone else's life, doing what was expected but not what he truly desired, which he could not know as he kind of didn't fully exist.

I mean you have to have an identity to really know what you want and to pick the life you want to live.

In no way do I think this cat was truly enraged or on some sort of rampage when he did this.

But I do think he dug deep down for some simmering resentment and deep anger and dissastifaction.

It was interesting when the investigators asked him if he was angry at Shanann and why. He said he was motivated by rage but he couldn't articulate why. He couldn't point to anything real that she actually did to him to upset him. I mean he also said that he killed his kids out of anger but could not explain it. Which maybe makes sense.

I think he may have felt some slight anger or really tried hard at least to drum some up. But he probably mostly felt adrenaline and excitement as he killed his wife as well. I believe him that he was shaking afterward. I don't think a pure and classic psychopath would have been.

But he calmed right back down like a snake on a rock after that and quietly and methodically loaded his car.

His anger at his parents - that's an interesting theory. Others have said the same thing. And it makes sense.

I feel he was likely annihilated by a narcissist. His description of his mother always asking him how he feels but he never expressed anything? That flat effect around one's parents is common for children of borderlines and narcissists because they can't make the wrong move and any expression of individual needs or feelings is met with annihilating rage or consumption. (Those I know who've been through this said they cannot let their parents in at all or ever tell them about their lives because the parents will use whatever they tell them).

He describes his mother as loving but she's shown herself to be anything but- ruining Shanann's bridal shower, not going to the wedding, bad mouthing her, risking her geandchildren's lives with nuts, saying savage things about her murdered daughter in law despite the utter agony it would cause Shanann's family. Making her victim statement all about showing how great her son and her family is and how she is a victim. Making it all about appearance and about her.

She's shown her character in so many ways.

So I think he's leaving a lot out. What he's described of his father and what we've heard from that man likewise shows a dysfunctional person of questionable character to me. He became a coke addict because his son got married and moved? Wth? And he continues to throw his murdered daughter in law under the bus refusing to accept reality?

What was it like being raised by them?

I recall this photo I saw of the family when Chris was little. It was in a YouTube movie about the crimes and flashed quickly on the screen. I rewinded and froze it.

Chris' sister appears much older than he. Chris was quite young. About 8-10. His father wasn't smiling much. Sort of stone faced. His mother and sister had almost identical expressions. Kind of smug, half smiles.

Then there was Chris. The little boy had a super wide and sweet smile. He was the nicest thing in the photo. The very picture of affability, innocence and niceness.

A very good boy.

I think like Scott Peterson he had to play a role in that family. He couldn't express emotion. He couldn't develop a personality.

And maybe indeed he had a simmering anger toward them as well.

It's all so horrible yet interesting to ponder.
 
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