Found Deceased CO - Suzanne Morphew, 49, did not return from bike ride, Chaffee County, 10 May 2020 #15

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Many times after a personal tragedy, a traumatic event, a life threatening accident or disease, a person will reassess his or her life. That person may realize what is most important to him/her.
Suzanne just battled cancer. She was probably tired and worn out from the chemo and the drugs. Once she got her life back, when she was declared cancer free, she may have decided to reset her priorities. She might have decided she didn’t want to have to keep up the facade of “rich and happy”, especially if she wasn’t. She was isolated, away from her family and friends in IN, her daughters were growing and would soon be on their own. Pretty soon it would be just her and her husband.
She may have asked herself, “Is that all there is?”, and decided that it didn’t have to be.
I don’t think she walked away. If she decided to leave her husband, I think she would have gone home to her family, friends, and church in IN. I don’t think she went into hiding.
Did she tell BM how she felt? How did that go over if she did?
I don’t have a real sense of who Suzanne is. When we follow cases here on WS, we try to get into the mind of the victim as well as the perpetrator. As @branmuffin said above, it appears Suzanne is a very private person. Is she feisty or shy? Would she talk to a stranger? Would she disappear on her own? Would she fight or submit?
This case is so frustrating to many of us on WS because we are here because we want to examine these cases. We want to solve the puzzle. However, in this case, we have hardly any pieces.
We know the WHO, but we don’t anything about the WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, or WHY.
 
That’s not quite true. He may have felt that way but the facts don’t show that. The kidnapping was witnessed by some of her classmates. He was quickly given a lie detector test and passed it. He was not the only suspect. So was her bio-dad:

“Carl Probyn witnessed the abduction of his stepdaughter from within sight of their home. He saw two people in a mid-sized gray car – possibly a Mercury Monarch[22] – make a U-turn at the school bus stop where Dugard was waiting, and a woman forcing Dugard into the car. Probyn gave chase on a bicycle, but was unable to overtake the vehicle. Some of Dugard's classmates were also witnesses to the abduction. Initial suspects included Probyn and Ken Slayton, Dugard's biological father, though they did not know each other and Slayton had only had a brief relationship with Terry in 1979, not knowing he had a child. Probyn took and passed several polygraphtests, and Slayton was also quickly cleared of suspicion.[23]

Kidnapping of Jaycee Dugard - Wikipedia


No, I’ve never seen a case where there’s this level of searching and focus (I mean digging up ground?) and the person who is the focus was innocent. I think the closest was the Celis family, as some have pointed out. But while their house was heavily searched, I don’t recall anything being dug up. They were certainly the focus but the extent of the search in this case is different to me.

None of the cases mentioned have come close to this.

So they had two suspects.........one of the direct witnesses to the crime who told the exact same story as the other witnesses, and a man who had never met her, but contributed to her DNA? I stand corrected, again. IMO
 
So they had two suspects.........one of the direct witnesses to the crime who told the exact same story as the other witnesses, and a man who had never met her, but contributed to her DNA? I stand corrected, again. IMO

More than that, actually. He was given a lie detector test and passed. It appears that while he was a suspect initially, the cops pretty quickly determined he wasn’t culpable due to both the lie detector test and the fact that other witnesses saw her being abducted.

I know HE has felt he was a suspect in the minds of people in the area. But that’s not the same thing, IMO.
 
Just a couple of random observations:

I agree with the sentiment that there is very little we actually know about this case. I also agree with those that have pointed out multiple things that are concerning (which clearly doesn't equal guilt) re: BM.

Given the variety of opinions on this forum (which I think the participants here are smarter than your average joe citizen), it helps me understand why these cases take a lot of time - especially if there is no body. All it takes is one person out of twelve to not be convinced of guilt - and you can clearly see from the dialogue here that everyone's bar is set at a different height when it comes to being convinced. I've seen a circumstantial case described this way - each concerning fact is like a pencil - by itself, it's not all that strong and can be broken. Two or three pencils, the same thing. But if you have a handful of 20 pencils, you can't break them with your hands, they collectively carry a lot of strength. To build a circumstantial case, you have to have enough concerning facts that not one out of 12 people can reasonably explain them away and come to a different conclusion. I think from LEs perspective, the worst outcome on this would be to rush to arrest/trial and lose the case because they didn't have enough of that evidence (which is even worse than believing that a guilty perp is living free for the time being).

Also, one other thing I've been thinking about. I watch a lot of Dateline and they often show police interrogation videos. From my perspective, there are certain people that are interviewed that you can tell - with a high degree of accuracy - within the first 30 seconds of them opening their mouth if they are telling the truth or lying (without really having to listen to what they are saying, but in listening to how they are saying it). From watching BM on the Ty video and the FB plea, I don't think he falls into that category (not for me anyway). I think he's a hard read from that standpoint (others may disagree, but when I first watched the video, I didn't have a strong reaction of "he's lying" or "he's telling the truth") - but as you dig into the words he chooses and what he actually says (the distancing language, exaggerations, extraneous details provided, etc.) I do find it concerning. That said by itself it is, at most, a pencil. How many others does LE have? I wish I knew! JMO, MOO.

Good post. I echo your sentiments with the exception that everything combined WITH the obvious, serious focus of LE, makes me look in a certain direction. And while we don’t have any info., LE does. So that makes me pause.

But I certainly agree with you on reading BM. I have the exact same feeling you do.
 
Good post. I echo your sentiments with the exception that everything combined WITH the obvious, serious focus of LE, makes me look in a certain direction. And while we don’t have any info., LE does. So that makes me pause.

But I certainly agree with you on reading BM. I have the exact same feeling you do.
Good point - I agree. It's interesting how for some on this forum the LE focus is a huge push off the fence, and for others it's not. Personally, I have hard time believing this is Cool Hand Luke where we have a sheriff with a vendetta (especially considering the involvement of all the other agencies) - so I'm of the mindset that LE has quite a bit, but that's certainly not everyone's take on it.
 
Many times after a personal tragedy, a traumatic event, a life threatening accident or disease, a person will reassess his or her life. That person may realize what is most important to him/her.
Suzanne just battled cancer. She was probably tired and worn out from the chemo and the drugs. Once she got her life back, when she was declared cancer free, she may have decided to reset her priorities. She might have decided she didn’t want to have to keep up the facade of “rich and happy”, especially if she wasn’t. She was isolated, away from her family and friends in IN, her daughters were growing and would soon be on their own. Pretty soon it would be just her and her husband.
She may have asked herself, “Is that all there is?”, and decided that it didn’t have to be.
I don’t think she walked away. If she decided to leave her husband, I think she would have gone home to her family, friends, and church in IN. I don’t think she went into hiding.
Did she tell BM how she felt? How did that go over if she did?
I don’t have a real sense of who Suzanne is. When we follow cases here on WS, we try to get into the mind of the victim as well as the perpetrator. As @branmuffin said above, it appears Suzanne is a very private person. Is she feisty or shy? Would she talk to a stranger? Would she disappear on her own? Would she fight or submit?
This case is so frustrating to many of us on WS because we are here because we want to examine these cases. We want to solve the puzzle. However, in this case, we have hardly any pieces.
We know the WHO, but we don’t anything about the WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, or WHY.
Very good post!!
Something I've seen over my many years is that
when women marry men when they're very young, and over the years of the marriage they really learned 'who' they're married to.
They also learn more about themselves, as they grow up together.
A more mature woman, as SM at 49 yrs. old, had just experienced a life crisis regarding cancer. most people will do lots of hard thinking and analysis regarding their remaining years.
how do they want to spend their remaining years. Just tolerating what their previous years were like? Maybe they weren't happily married. Maybe SM was the 'good wife' who went along with what her husband wanted.
Maybe now it was her turn to make choices.
Women do grow and mature in a long term marriage.
If SM related to her husband that SHE now wanted to make some decisions- maybe go back to where she had lots of connections, family, friends- or maybe she was tired of being just the 'dish rag' who flopped along with her husband making ALL the decisions.
Maybe he was cheating on her for years but she wasn't in a position to make the leap to divorce.
Maybe he ignored her needs while battling cancer. He doesn't seem like the caretaking type.
Maybe she was fed up and needed a major change.
That's what I believe happened here.
She was over it. No more family secrets.
You take half and I'll take half.
He lost it and said NO.
The end of SM.
 
As someone who always thinks the husband did it, I’ve really been pondering this case. Things don’t seem to add up. Probably because we have so little to go on, but nonetheless.
Let’s suppose that BM is not directly responsible for SM’s disappearance and view him through that lens. His behavior strikes me as conflicted. As in, 50% “she followed through on her desire to leave me”. Maybe also he knows she’s been struggling emotionally. Hence, his “too soon (to make this public and advertise our problems)” comment. Hence the family’s silence. Let’s just give her space and let her come back on her own. We can work things out without alerting the media and causing more upset. The other 50% of his initial behavior seems like a man grasping at straws, because there is ALSO the possibility she met with foul play. Such as his spouting to TD all the combined possibilities that he and LE have considered for her fate.

Also, his short, awkward video makes more sense if he is struggling between theories:
*50% speaking directly to her....Oh Suzanne, I understand why you left. I’ve heard you loud and clear. Just come back, no questions asked. You left your daughters too, BTW, and they are hurting. A direct guilt-bribe you would only say to someone who left voluntarily.
*And, 50%, if someone has you, we are willing to do what it takes to get you back.

His actions make sense to me only if he is innocent of her disappearance, but worried for her fate and guilty of his actions in their marriage that could have forced her hand. She’s dissatisfied and fed up with me, with a side dish of “she could be in real trouble”.

I think LE considered these scenarios too, but experience, gut feeling and the tip line put BM at the top of their list. Ripping up a concrete foundation with the help of the FBI leads me to believe they are very committed to this theory! If their month long search for forensics has come up short, they may need to regroup. And start again with things like canvassing the community....
 
Good point - I agree. It's interesting how for some on this forum the LE focus is a huge push off the fence, and for others it's not. Personally, I have hard time believing this is Cool Hand Luke where we have a sheriff with a vendetta (especially considering the involvement of all the other agencies) - so I'm of the mindset that LE has quite a bit, but that's certainly not everyone's take on it.

I would think that BM being a firefighter might even be considered part of a community that would be on the inside of an investigation. First responders in my area tend to be part of a trusted network-except of course, the outliers who seem to be known as such by the others. That brings me back to why BM didn’t get in touch with one of his fellow firefighters to sound the alarm. They are trained in ways that could have assisted in the initial search when nobody was leaning toward a criminal investigation. Who knows what happened in the beginning and who was on site.
 
A
Good point - I agree. It's interesting how for some on this forum the LE focus is a huge push off the fence, and for others it's not. Personally, I have hard time believing this is Cool Hand Luke where we have a sheriff with a vendetta (especially considering the involvement of all the other agencies) - so I'm of the mindset that LE has quite a bit, but that's certainly not everyone's take on it.
And add the fact that entire family has been silent in the MSM. That could mean they are conflicted because they are thinking what many of us are thinking, or they have been asked to remain silent. I am leaning toward the former.
 
Just a couple of random observations:

I agree with the sentiment that there is very little we actually know about this case. I also agree with those that have pointed out multiple things that are concerning (which clearly doesn't equal guilt) re: BM.

Given the variety of opinions on this forum (which I think the participants here are smarter than your average joe citizen), it helps me understand why these cases take a lot of time - especially if there is no body. All it takes is one person out of twelve to not be convinced of guilt - and you can clearly see from the dialogue here that everyone's bar is set at a different height when it comes to being convinced. I've seen a circumstantial case described this way - each concerning fact is like a pencil - by itself, it's not all that strong and can be broken. Two or three pencils, the same thing. But if you have a handful of 20 pencils, you can't break them with your hands, they collectively carry a lot of strength. To build a circumstantial case, you have to have enough concerning facts that not one out of 12 people can reasonably explain them away and come to a different conclusion. I think from LEs perspective, the worst outcome on this would be to rush to arrest/trial and lose the case because they didn't have enough of that evidence (which is even worse than believing that a guilty perp is living free for the time being).

Also, one other thing I've been thinking about. I watch a lot of Dateline and they often show police interrogation videos. From my perspective, there are certain people that are interviewed that you can tell - with a high degree of accuracy - within the first 30 seconds of them opening their mouth if they are telling the truth or lying (without really having to listen to what they are saying, but in listening to how they are saying it). From watching BM on the Ty video and the FB plea, I don't think he falls into that category (not for me anyway). I think he's a hard read from that standpoint (others may disagree, but when I first watched the video, I didn't have a strong reaction of "he's lying" or "he's telling the truth") - but as you dig into the words he chooses and what he actually says (the distancing language, exaggerations, extraneous details provided, etc.) I do find it concerning. That said by itself it is, at most, a pencil. How many others does LE have? I wish I knew! JMO, MOO.
Great post!
 
As someone who always thinks the husband did it, I’ve really been pondering this case. Things don’t seem to add up. Probably because we have so little to go on, but nonetheless.
Let’s suppose that BM is not directly responsible for SM’s disappearance and view him through that lens. His behavior strikes me as conflicted. As in, 50% “she followed through on her desire to leave me”. Maybe also he knows she’s been struggling emotionally. Hence, his “too soon (to make this public and advertise our problems)” comment. Hence the family’s silence. Let’s just give her space and let her come back on her own. We can work things out without alerting the media and causing more upset. The other 50% of his initial behavior seems like a man grasping at straws, because there is ALSO the possibility she met with foul play. Such as his spouting to TD all the combined possibilities that he and LE have considered for her fate.

Also, his short, awkward video makes more sense if he is struggling between theories:
*50% speaking directly to her....Oh Suzanne, I understand why you left. I’ve heard you loud and clear. Just come back, no questions asked. You left your daughters too, BTW, and they are hurting. A direct guilt-bribe you would only say to someone who left voluntarily.
*And, 50%, if someone has you, we are willing to do what it takes to get you back.

His actions make sense to me only if he is innocent of her disappearance, but worried for her fate and guilty of his actions in their marriage that could have forced her hand. She’s dissatisfied and fed up with me, with a side dish of “she could be in real trouble”.

I think LE considered these scenarios too, but experience, gut feeling and the tip line put BM at the top of their list. Ripping up a concrete foundation with the help of the FBI leads me to believe they are very committed to this theory! If their month long search for forensics has come up short, they may need to regroup. And start again with things like canvassing the community....
I agree w/ your points and they are very logical for the actions and comments from LE.
One of our speculated pieces of evidence is the concrete.
I am not a lawyer, so this question is addressed at those in the legal profession. I am a woman whose foundation is under suspicion of having evidence to a murder mixed in w/ the concrete(at this point it is purely based on probabilities of spouse involvement, but most electronic info hasn’t been received yet)No way, am I going to live in a house where there might be pieces, parts in that slab.
Do I wait for the rest of the evidence to come in, it’s my understanding this is not a quick process. NO!

I would approach LE and try to work out a solution, because I have already lined up a tight schedule w/ my contractors.
So what if LE says they don’t have enough for probable cause for SW?
*This is my legal question, as a woman who is used to getting things done, what would my lawyer say or do for me?
Why should my house building stop, because one of my contractors MAY have been around the concrete...
What could I legally do to force LE to clear the foundation and allow me to continue with my building schedule?
 
Very good post!!
Something I've seen over my many years is that
when women marry men when they're very young, and over the years of the marriage they really learned 'who' they're married to.
They also learn more about themselves, as they grow up together.
A more mature woman, as SM at 49 yrs. old, had just experienced a life crisis regarding cancer. most people will do lots of hard thinking and analysis regarding their remaining years.
how do they want to spend their remaining years. Just tolerating what their previous years were like? Maybe they weren't happily married. Maybe SM was the 'good wife' who went along with what her husband wanted.
Maybe now it was her turn to make choices.
Women do grow and mature in a long term marriage.
If SM related to her husband that SHE now wanted to make some decisions- maybe go back to where she had lots of connections, family, friends- or maybe she was tired of being just the 'dish rag' who flopped along with her husband making ALL the decisions.
Maybe he was cheating on her for years but she wasn't in a position to make the leap to divorce.
Maybe he ignored her needs while battling cancer. He doesn't seem like the caretaking type.
Maybe she was fed up and needed a major change.
That's what I believe happened here.
She was over it. No more family secrets.
You take half and I'll take half.
He lost it and said NO.
The end of SM.
I agree with the theories that you and oldcop have laid out. I'd like to add that I think that if this is the case, she told someone, maybe several people of her plans. When someone decides that they are done in a relationship, a paradigm shift occurs. They are no longer invested in backing up the facade that the spouse is a great guy. They shift to wanting others to understand what has brought them to this painful life change. They also do not want those closest to be in the dark. They want them to be prepared and reassured that the decision was made carefully with a practical plan for the future. Yes, if this is the case, I think several people knew.
The spouse will usually sense the change of attitude before the subject is presented. Moo
 
Many times after a personal tragedy, a traumatic event, a life threatening accident or disease, a person will reassess his or her life. That person may realize what is most important to him/her.
Suzanne just battled cancer. She was probably tired and worn out from the chemo and the drugs. Once she got her life back, when she was declared cancer free, she may have decided to reset her priorities. She might have decided she didn’t want to have to keep up the facade of “rich and happy”, especially if she wasn’t. She was isolated, away from her family and friends in IN, her daughters were growing and would soon be on their own. Pretty soon it would be just her and her husband.
She may have asked herself, “Is that all there is?”, and decided that it didn’t have to be.
I don’t think she walked away. If she decided to leave her husband, I think she would have gone home to her family, friends, and church in IN. I don’t think she went into hiding.
Did she tell BM how she felt? How did that go over if she did?
I don’t have a real sense of who Suzanne is. When we follow cases here on WS, we try to get into the mind of the victim as well as the perpetrator. As @branmuffin said above, it appears Suzanne is a very private person. Is she feisty or shy? Would she talk to a stranger? Would she disappear on her own? Would she fight or submit?
This case is so frustrating to many of us on WS because we are here because we want to examine these cases. We want to solve the puzzle. However, in this case, we have hardly any pieces.
We know the WHO, but we don’t anything about the WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, or WHY.
I think you bring out some interesting points re: "life timing" on this that could shed some light on what happened - just the ones that we know of (and there could be others that we're not aware of):
  • SM's recent recovery from a significant illness
  • BM/SM fairly recent move to a new state/community
  • The age of their kids - recent/impending empty nest
These are all major life events that can and do have significant impact on life rhythms and relationships. It wouldn't be a surprise to learn that one or more of these had some kind of impact on what happened to SM. IMO.
 
I agree with the theories that you and oldcop have laid out. I'd like to add that I think that if this is the case, she told someone, maybe several people of her plans. When someone decides that they are done in a relationship, a paradigm shift occurs. They are no longer invested in backing up the facade that the spouse is a great guy. They shift to wanting others to understand what has brought them to this painful life change. They also do not want those closest to be in the dark. They want them to be prepared and reassured that the decision was made carefully with a practical plan for the future. Yes, if this is the case, I think several people knew.
The spouse will usually sense the change of attitude before the subject is presented. Moo
I agree, @Fireflize Perhaps she confided to her brother. Wasn’t it he who said, “This isn’t going to end well.”?
 
Some things that I notice about Barry Morphew that I haven't read others speaking about. I started out thinking Barry was guilty, especially with how the LE have handled everything. Then after the TD video, I re-thought it a bit.#1 - BM is an alpha male of the highest calibre, and highly successful. To hear that he is aggressive around the job site, or flat out mean, should not be a surprise to anyone. Guys like him are cut from a different cloth. I would bet he works 12 or 14 hour days – or more if needed, and then organizes for a few more in the evenings. 10 – 15 employee's at times I've read? That's not a casual little landscaping guy w/ a skid steer, he has to also be into large type civil construction. You don't generate that kind of wealth w/ a tiny operation. He wouldn't survive doing “dirt” work were he not ULTRA aggressive, competitive, and still hungry. It might take a special type of person to put up with him.

#2 – <modsnip: sleuthing BM's social media is not allowed as he has not been officially named a POI / suspect>

#3 – Have you ever suffered a huge trauma? I see nothing in either his plea for help, or the TD video, other than a man who's used to being in complete control, completely out of control, and very likely in shock....I'm surprised he can remember his own name.....
 
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Some things that I notice about Barry Morphew that I haven't read others speaking about. I started out thinking Barry was guilty, especially with how the LE have handled everything. Then after the TD video, I re-thought it a bit.#1 - BM is an alpha male of the highest calibre, and highly successful. To hear that he is aggressive around the job site, or flat out mean, should not be a surprise to anyone. Guys like him are cut from a different cloth. I would bet he works 12 or 14 hour days – or more if needed, and then organizes for a few more in the evenings. 10 – 15 employee's at times I've read? That's not a casual little landscaping guy w/ a skid steer, he has to also be into large type civil construction. You don't generate that kind of wealth w/ a tiny operation. He wouldn't survive doing “dirt” work were he not ULTRA aggressive, competitive, and still hungry. It might take a special type of person to put up with him.

#2 – <modsnip: sleuthing BM's social media is not allowed as he has not been officially named a POI / suspect>

#3 – Have you ever suffered a huge trauma? I see nothing in either his plea for help, or the TD video, other than a man who's used to being in complete control, completely out of control, and very likely in shock....I'm surprised he can remember his own name.....
ITA
IMO the concrete dig, was generated by an aggressive builder/owner, in order to be allowed to continue the home building. Further, if one bit of evidence were uncovered, construction would have halted, MORE concrete excavated. Homeowner legal action etc.IMO this is an extraneous variables/no bearing on BMs guilt or innocence.
Once I removed this and filtered my bias based on the probability “spouse did it”, it allowed me to reconsider BMs guilt. I have yet to find anything factual that could remotely indicate guilt, especially if my bias is factored outJMHO
From that decision, much of our speculation on his behavior, could also be interpreted as an innocent man who, has lost his soulmate.
MOO
This is my own speculation...He may have hired his own group of private investigators to work this case. Most of us know the difficulty of paying for additional law officers, but BM seems to have funds for this.
Many PIs are ex LE who retire, and retain their experience, skills, and work well w/ the Departments they left.JMO
 
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Some things that I notice about Barry Morphew that I haven't read others speaking about. I started out thinking Barry was guilty, especially with how the LE have handled everything. Then after the TD video, I re-thought it a bit.#1 - BM is an alpha male of the highest calibre, and highly successful. To hear that he is aggressive around the job site, or flat out mean, should not be a surprise to anyone. Guys like him are cut from a different cloth. I would bet he works 12 or 14 hour days – or more if needed, and then organizes for a few more in the evenings. 10 – 15 employee's at times I've read? That's not a casual little landscaping guy w/ a skid steer, he has to also be into large type civil construction. You don't generate that kind of wealth w/ a tiny operation. He wouldn't survive doing “dirt” work were he not ULTRA aggressive, competitive, and still hungry. It might take a special type of person to put up with him.

#2 – <modsnip: sleuthing BM's social media is not allowed as he has not been officially named a POI / suspect>

#3 – Have you ever suffered a huge trauma? I see nothing in either his plea for help, or the TD video, other than a man who's used to being in complete control, completely out of control, and very likely in shock....I'm surprised he can remember his own name.....
Haha. Nicely laid out @Jimbythelake This is what I love about WS. Two people can look at the very same pieces of information and form two very different opinions. For all the reasons you gave, (see what was RBBM), I still in MOO think that those signs point to the type of person who could commit this type of crime and think they will get away with it. Yes, it’s been said he is controlling and I believe that what he lost control over was Suzanne. That would drive a person like him crazy.
I also believe that if he wanted control over finding out what happened to Suzanne, he would have been out there on Day One screaming to the heavens about her. He would be leading the charge. He wouldn’t be saying, “It’s too soon” or recording carefully controlled pleas to imagined kidnappers.
I hope I am wrong and you are right. I love that, for the most part, we can sit on opposite sides of our theories here on WS and be able to engage in intelligent debate.
 
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I do wonder about the alpha male thing. I also wonder if BM was actually successful. We have no idea where the money came from to perpetuate their lifestyle. I didn’t see much on the landscaping side. Maybe it’s more in real estate. I don’t think we truly know anything for sure. You can own or rent equipment and be a sub contractor without substantial earnings.
 
Moving to CO. Returning to IN? Or?
....Maybe they weren't happily married. Maybe SM was the 'good wife' who went along with what her husband wanted. Maybe now it was
her turn to make choices...maybe go back to where she had lots of connections, family, friends....
@enelram sbm bbm
While theorizing about the driving force in fam's IN to CO move, what facts support whether it was BM's unilateral decision w 'obedient wife' or whether it was BM & SM's joint decision? IDK, but imo doubtful SM was sole decider.
If (hypothetically) another person is involved with SM, in SM's (hypo) decision to end marriage, could she/they have decided to live in a location other than mid-CO or hometown area, IN?
Or w no other person involved, SM may have decided for a fresh start by herself elsewhere. IDK.
 
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