CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #1

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The Co poisoning thing bothers me. It's hard to put a finger on, and I kno their living location was discussed a little ways back, but here's the thing, and someone from the area, please fill me in.

If she got the CO poisoning treatment at UCLA, then it would stand to reason that the event occurred there. (Maybe not, but it would seem fair to assume.) Do people in LA really have fossil fuel-burning furnaces? I was under the impression that they do not and the heating system (if any) is electricity-based, like a heat pump. I know that's the norm for just about all the other warm-weather places in this country, so I am thinking southern CA would likely be the same. The CO poisoning was reported to be from a furnace flue.

I guess it could be bad terminology and really be a gas-powered water heater that had a faulty ventilation system, but it made me wonder nonetheless.

Someone from southern CA please fill us in on the usual home heating situation in your area.

Most is central air but older homes like mine, that are a hundred years old, can have issues with carbon monoxide. I don't think it's as big an issue as in colder, older regions of the country, though.

At what time was Morgan actually found deceased by mom?.I would have thought she was an early riser and with not being up i would have thought mom would have checked in on her earlier than 12 noon?..

It said on the website that she was found in the morning. Where are we getting 12 noon again?
 
This is why I think it was an unintentional OD and not related to the peeping at all, except as a side effect, so to speak. M frequented the stables. She was losing sleep from all this, trying to go to school and be normal, and it all took it's toll. I think it's possible she got a Flexeril from a friend, but had seen the amy at the stables, remember she had taken it before, and took some to help her sleep, not realizing it was much stronger than her RX. She may have tried the Flexeril first, didn't feel anything right away, and took the amy to try to sleep. The dose, being so large, killed her pretty quickly, and that's why the stomach contents still registered the Flexeril.

I don't see how someone could have snuck into the house and given her both medications.

Entirely possible.

Flexeril is weak.......

And Elavil is often taken for the sole reason of insomnia.

It's just the toxic dose of elavil that bothers me as well as the lack of it in stomach contents.

I do think she wanted and needed sleep............I don't think she was suicidal but of course I could be wrong.

Regardless...............the stalker caused her death. Directly, indirectly....
 
gitana i think it was 12:13 LE were called out.thats from a link posted earlier to sherriff office call out list thingy.
Sorry my fault it doesnt say if it was am or pm just 12:13:13.
 
The Co poisoning thing bothers me. It's hard to put a finger on, and I kno their living location was discussed a little ways back, but here's the thing, and someone from the area, please fill me in.

If she got the CO poisoning treatment at UCLA, then it would stand to reason that the event occurred there. (Maybe not, but it would seem fair to assume.) Do people in LA really have fossil fuel-burning furnaces? I was under the impression that they do not and the heating system (if any) is electricity-based, like a heat pump. I know that's the norm for just about all the other warm-weather places in this country, so I am thinking southern CA would likely be the same. The CO poisoning was reported to be from a furnace flue.

I guess it could be bad terminology and really be a gas-powered water heater that had a faulty ventilation system, but it made me wonder nonetheless.

Someone from southern CA please fill us in on the usual home heating situation in your area.


The fax letter posted yesterday from the other forensic pathologist mentioned chronic CO poisoning, meaning it happened repeatedly over a period of time. Mom, in the newspaper article, was quoted as saying M had CO poisoning from "being exposed to high levels of carbon monoxide because of faulty furnace flues in the family's home". It doesn't state where they were living, but somewhere else it's posted that M was raised in Colorado, so it's possible they were just visiting in Cali when she was DX'd. I wonder if anyone else in the family had become ill from the faulty furnace, since it should have affected everyone.
 
this is where I am leaning.....and who was home when she was found? if she was found at noon wouldn't the mom have been there - didn't she work from home?

Two things lead me to believe it was just after noon:

This is the 2heriffs log:
2011-00029169
12/02/2011 12:13:33

It would be 00:13:33 if it were a.m. (24 hour clock)

Also, the pic of the doe captured on the camera at 3:45 has a note saying it was the first to tell her goodbye. So they must have found her AFTER 3:45 am??


Not 100% positive though.
 
I agree with you for the most part. Clearly, the mom did not suddenly make this up. There were calls to the police and discussions with neighbors, friends, etc., for months before Morgan died. They felt they were being stalked for months and reacted to that on a daily basis.

But really, virtually every case on websleuths makes sense to me and has a logical explanation. Yes, there may be a couple of things here and there in a case that don't totally fit, (like the double prints in the Jason Young case) but nothing so big as this. When something as big as whether or not a murder actually took place at all is what doesn't fit, it may be time to reevaluate what you're looking at.

Like I said before, I'm going to stay open, especially as we have not heard yet everything Morgan's mom has to say.

But for now, a murder scenario in which a frighteningly persistent and cunning stalker manages to break into the house of people who have been prepared for such a break in and guarding against it, and then murders his victim by forcing her to drink something, or he injects something in her, all the while as she calmly lays there and allows him to do it, no sign of any struggle or forced entry of any kind, and/or he somehow manages to track her and pre-drug her in the night before breaking into a heavily guarded house to finish the job in a perfectly timed masterpiece of murder that displays not one iota of a connection to the types of murders stalkers commit (i.e., no sexual assault, no violence, no signs of rage), defies any kind of reasonable logic, fits zero profiles for this kind of case and seems implausible.

(The death occurred at night, BTW. On the website about Morgan's death, they state she came home and went to bed early, that a doe went by her room at 3:45 a.m. to say goodbye and that her parents found her lifeless body that morning).

I love a good story just like the next person. But when it comes to crime and the actual deaths of actual people who existed, I count on verifiable facts and logic.

I see problems with this case. Big ones, on both sides of the fence. So, I am on the fence and waiting to hear more. But so far, there are certain things I can't get past. The second opinion of Dr. Doberson certainly raises questions but does not help explain how the murderer would have pulled off such an incredibly Bondesque feat and why he would commit a murder in that fashion, a manner that does not indicate obsession or jealousy or the desire to instill fear and torment, at all. :moo:

BBM - this almost sounds like the JonBenet Ramsey case, same state and all, except for the alleged stalking.
 
There could be various reasons why Morgan was not in college or was taking a reduced load at the time. her mother does give an explanation and it seemed okay to me though I can't totally remember it now. Finances could have also been a factor.

It really doesn't fit with the description of her on the main website wanting to attend CU Boulder, planning to attend law school, having the whole thing worked out. That page does mention her going after yoga certification, but I don't see how ballet classes get her there...nor do I understand why she was taking pointe classes after only a few years of ballet.

As for her murder stemming from a desire to punish her, the manner of murder would not fit that at all either, IMO.

I think the mental anguish associated with the stalking was meant to punish her...her death was probably meant to punish her survivors.

I've been following true crime, murders, for decades. It's a little hobby for me as it is for many of us on websleuths. Profilers profile because it works. It solves cases. Psychologists assist in these case and trends, and M.O.s have been documented for centuries.

Someone who wants to punish another person is not going to have them quietly put to sleep. The ONLY time I have seen murder scenarios that resemble what Morgan's mom appears to think happened here are spouses trying to get out of a marriage and/or get insurance money, parents who want insurance money for their kids or sympathy in a Munchausen's-type accidental or intentional killing, or crazy, serial killing nurses who also want some kind of attention for "saving" or "finding" patients who they have harmed or killed, or who simply enjoy killing a la repeated angel of death scenarios.

The murder of Morgan would have stemmed from rage, jealousy, a misguided desire for revenge, or violent obsession, if committed by her stalker. None of those motivations result in quiet, die in your sleep type murders. :twocents:

Agreed, but this crime doesn't appear to fit a known pattern....If this was carried out by a group, the one with the passionate grudge could have been hiding in the shadows while someone colder and dispassionate was carrying out orders. Someone clearly got a payoff from ruining her life and may not have been willing to stop until she was dead.
 
Two things lead me to believe it was just after noon:

This is the 2heriffs log:
2011-00029169
12/02/2011 12:13:33

It would be 00:13:33 if it were a.m. (24 hour clock)

Also, the pic of the doe captured on the camera at 3:45 has a note saying it was the first to tell her goodbye. So they must have found her AFTER 3:45 am??


Not 100% positive though.

Yeah id corrected myself but who knows?.
 
This is not directed at anyone in particular, but a few pages back (I think), someone was commenting on the photo of the lake ("Hanging Lake") that is posted with the 9/10's blog entry.

A comment (or two, or three...) made mention about how it was strange that Morgan was at the lake alone during this time.

I thought that was weird, too, so I went back and looked at the picture and blog posting again.

It doesn't say when Morgan went there. It only said that this was a place Morgan went sometimes, to meditate or reflect. And, tbh, the photo looks like it's from a late-June/July time frame, to judge on the greenery, and may not be a current year (again, because they're in a drought, so I'd think there'd be less green available).

I suppose my post is to make sure we're reading what was said, and commenting on that, and not assuming something (like she was at the lake during the bigger stalking events starting in August).

That being said, that lake looks awfully nice and peaceful. I can imagine being there would indeed bring much needed peace and quiet to someone, and I know that if I went there, I'd have Gracie and Romi swimming in the lake. LOL.

So let's be pretty careful about what we're commenting on, so that things don't get too distorted (like "Why was Morgan allowed to go to the lake alone?" when that's not what was said...).

And I am also quite firm in believing that the stalking began far, far earlier than August. I think that it is very likely that something happened at the end of 2010, or the beginning of 2011. There is some evidence that her car was keyed, and a derogatory term scratched onto the car, while she was at school (this was February).

This, to me, is the first instance one can point to, and say that "well, something's going on..."

Here is what I suspect ****may**** have happened.

Morgan crosses someone she goes to college with, for some reason or other. She gets her car keyed, doesn't make a huge deal of it, and continues on with school. She may change her class schedule, or not. But she graduates from college with her AA in late May. Bullying/harassment may have continued throughout this time, although Morgan didn't make too much mention of it to her parents.

I think Morgan went to California to work for her sister, and then took a trip out to Hawaii, to escape being in the same area that her bully/harasser was in...maybe the parents knew a bit about this - a bad breakup with a boyfriend, or a group of girls pissed off for some reason, something where Morgan needs to "take a break" and so is sent off for the summer. Parents thought the time away would be nice for Morgan, and for the parents, too.

Then, on the way back from Hawaii, she gets her puppy. She comes home, hoping that the break away for the summer has given whatever situation was going on time to cool off; maybe she hoped that absence made things fade, made hurts heal, and that now things would be better, she'd be able to return to her normal life.

But. That's not what happened. Word spread around that Morgan was home again, and shortly thereafter, the stalking started. Instead of making things better, maybe Morgan's summer vacation (and work) made it even more important for the stalker to go after this harder...like has been mentioned in these pages, sometimes, if you manage to avoid/evade your stalker, the next time they see you, it's worse than it was before.

That, to me, is a reasonable timeline of the beginning parts of all this. I firmly believe that this has more than one person doing the stalking, and again, I'm brought to mind of Diane Zamora and David (whatshisname).

With K and B breaking up in midOctober, I would be looking for an escalation of things just before that time, and after that time.

On a different topic, I also want to say that my parents would not have known to do as much as Morgan's parents did, and neither would my brother and sister-in-law. I would...but that's because I was also a victim of the stalker, and I am very interested in true crime and, of course, this board has taught me sooooo much about criminals and their twisted thinking that I can take better steps in protecting myself.

But my parents would not even have thought about meeting my car, let alone getting motion detectors. God bless them, they would not have thought of that at all.

If we are to be critical of the situation and the steps that Toni and Steve Ingram took, at least they did something. We don't know if they had a ton of money - fencing, CCTVs, alarm systems, and on and on take money. We do know they leased the property, and that it is an HOA area, and that itself would put some things out of reach for a leasee. Even if the property owner was amenable to it, the HOA may not have been...and it would have taken time - in some instances, perhaps a few months - before the HOA would approve something.

And, if, as LE had suggested, the Ingrams took a low profile on this, they wouldn't want to go to the HOA anyway.

We are very quick to criticize, and say we'd do things differently. And we might indeed do things differently. But I'd venture to say that we've followed true crime long enough to know some of the unwritten rules, have seen things that taught us how to be better at protecting ourselves, and have learned from others mistake. I doubt strongly that the Ingrams read about and learn from true crime websites and cases like we do...and thus, they are at a disadvantage to begin with.

All of this is, as all my other posts are (and will be), my own opinion, my own observations, and my own conclusions. I just think that we need to be a bit more aware of where the Ingrams are coming from, and be gentle with them regarding what we would have done differently. I see the parents doing their best, in a very alien situation, to protect their daughter...and to read Toni's guilt in each and every post, her self-doubt, her regret, and her love for her daughter...well, I think we need to be more gentle with her...and with ourselves, too.

Best-
Herding Cats
 
The one thing about why the parents didn't install alarm systems or fences.....I *might* know why they didn't install alarm systems.

We were renting a house and wanted ADT to install us a system. They wouldn't unless we have full written approval from the landlord. Our landlords wouldn't let us b/c of all the wiring that had to be done and hooking into the phone lines. I guess the same would hold true for the fences. I know you have to get permits and such for some fences. Some cities are strict about stuff like that.

I wonder if that was a HOA neighborhood????

I've been a stalking victim and have had a variety of different alarm systems in the residences of which I've lived. Recently I was a tenant and ADT was quite able to provide me with a wireless (non-installed, non-invasive) system that I took with me after I moved. They were little wireless units that were easy to mount and dismount around doors, windows, etc...

Just sayin'.....
 
Don't know my source, but police were not first responders...call was made well before 12
 
It really doesn't fit with the description of her on the main website wanting to attend CU Boulder, planning to attend law school, having the whole thing worked out. That page does mention her going after yoga certification, but I don't see how ballet classes get her there...nor do I understand why she was taking pointe classes after only a few years of ballet.



I think the mental anguish associated with the stalking was meant to punish her...her death was probably meant to punish her survivors.



Agreed, but this crime doesn't appear to fit a known pattern....If this was carried out by a group, the one with the passionate grudge could have been hiding in the shadows while someone colder and dispassionate was carrying out orders. Someone clearly got a payoff from ruining her life and may not have been willing to stop until she was dead.



the problem I have with a group terrorizing her is not just that no one saw 1 person, let alone several, it's also that so many questions are unanswered and don't make any sense. We'd have to imagine that a group of people took the time and effort to slowly terrorize a household of adults and not been caught, that they broke in repeatedly but were never seen nor anything messed or missing and that they tired of this game and decided to kill her leaving no trace of a fight for her life, sign of murder or debris from the murder. My mind is still open but it is hard to add together.
 
The Co poisoning thing bothers me. It's hard to put a finger on, and I kno their living location was discussed a little ways back, but here's the thing, and someone from the area, please fill me in.

If she got the CO poisoning treatment at UCLA, then it would stand to reason that the event occurred there. (Maybe not, but it would seem fair to assume.) Do people in LA really have fossil fuel-burning furnaces? I was under the impression that they do not and the heating system (if any) is electricity-based, like a heat pump. I know that's the norm for just about all the other warm-weather places in this country, so I am thinking southern CA would likely be the same. The CO poisoning was reported to be from a furnace flue.

I guess it could be bad terminology and really be a gas-powered water heater that had a faulty ventilation system, but it made me wonder nonetheless.

Someone from southern CA please fill us in on the usual home heating situation in your area.

Waves...HI!

While I have and use central AC/heating now, in my last apartment, there was a natural-gas powered floor furnace. I also had a CO detector operational at all times. It never sounded, but it was there. I lived there 11 years, and used the furnace all the time, usually from early November through to early April.

In the home I grew up in, there was a natural-gas floor furnace, with two grates, as well as a gas wall heater in the den. We did NOT have CO monitors then. We also had a gas wall heater in the bathroom, which was lit before taking baths so that the room wouldn't be cold.

And fireplaces are a very, very huge feature here. Most are natural gas.

In recent years, the home I live in now (is the same home I grew up in) got the AC/heat, and the gas company put labels on the gas heater in the bath, the one in the den, and on the floor grates. The label says WARNING! CARBON MONOXIDE, and then says use of these features is illegal.

A lot of homes - I'd say the vast majority of homes - were built a long while ago. There have been many renovations to put in central ac/heat, but it's not as widespread as you might think.

I can easily see CO poisoning happening here...and in fact, I had a patient with it while I was in nursing school. So yes, it does happen here, and I'd bet it happens a lot more than folks think it does.

Best-
Herding Cats
 
I would be interested in hearing from the brother and his family as well as her sister. Did many of her friends know wha was going on?

I did find a social media account belonging to a close family member. The only comment that *could be about Morgan is them saying (they'll be out of touch for a while). This was posted on December 2nd 2011. This is not an exact quote.
 
Pretty sure they did.

The only blog entry that I recall specifically mentioning that topic, is the one I posted about yesterday. It's the one where M brought home a few friends who all wanted to see the stalker pic. They looked at it and they all "freaked".

But M almost every day went to hang out with friends, and there was a lot of texting between her and her mom to coordinate rides or meeting her in the driveway when she was to return home. So my impression is that, at least, the friends that M hung out with knew about the stalker events.

Yes I've even wondered if one of those friends would inadvertently give updates to JV and girlfriend........about this girls level of anguish and fear.

Or friends of friends type of deal...
 
I also wondered how she ended up en pointe after one year of ballet, but then again, I've seen martial arts schools award people advance belts after only a few months, so it would all depend on the school. It's also possible she had taken ballet in the past and had just started up again the year before.

I did notice that her blogging stopped a couple of days after the incidents of window tapping began, around the time mom reported her as being terrified. By then there had been only 2 window tapping events. I would think the first reaction would be to brush it off, then annoyance, then the trickling of fear, and down the road terror as the incidents picked up. Her jump to terror that quickly and her no longer blogging makes me wonder if she hadn't experienced a whole lot of something else outside the home and never told her parents. When it followed her home, it terrified her.

And on yet another note: I, too, would love to hear from her friends and neighbors. It's odd that there is so much silence on their parts. I know the family of a murdered man, and his mom, too, was very active in trying to catch the killer, very vocal, posting everywhere. His friends and family would often comment on her posts, add details, pose questions, etc., and going on sites like here and the other one to add their voices to the discussion, especially in defense if someone said something that may have been offensive. I'm not seeing that in this case.
 
Detective Megan Alstatt, said that the stalker case is not necessarily closed.

“I believe it's inactive, but technically we could reopen it,” she said.

According to Detective Megan Alstatt several different people were viewed as suspects.

“At this time we don't have enough evidence to go through with arrests for any of those people,” she added.

http://www.aspentimes.com/article/20120907/NEWS/120909901/1077&ParentProfile=1058
Again LE has never made statements nor alluded to questioning was there a stalker.. Thats just not been the case here .. Actually quite the opposite is indicated by LE in their making the decision to up the case from misdemeanor to felony stalking ..

Unfortunately we do not yet have all of the information of the case and the events leading up to Morgan's death(be it death by homicide, death by suicide, death by natural causes of a young womans body being weakened physically and mentally over a long period of time)..whatever the death is going to be technically classified imo one thing at this present time that I feel certain about is that any of those causes of death were imo a direct result of what this young woman was put thru and experienced for an extended period of time..

Again as far as LE goes they have never stated nor alluded to their believing that this felony stalking case was ever in any way fraudulent, a figment of someones imagination, or faked in any way whatsoever.. To have done any of those above actions would absolutely be prosecutable offenses that LE wouldnt for one second hesitate in throwing the book at any/all members of the Ingram family for their filing fraudulent police reports, lying to LE, and wasting hundreds of hours and dollars on a non existent stalker case..(especially now where Toni has taken this..you better believe theyd be striking back legally and throwing the book at them)...LE HAS NEVER ONCE STATED THEY BELIEVED THE FELONY STALKING CASE TO BE IN ANY WAY FRAUDULENT.
 
12:13 is noon.

00:13 is a.m. LE uses military time.

I see the doe there. I wonder how long they had the cam up, they could then compare the times of hearing sounds and motion lights to any critter images, or windy tree limbs blowing.

I do believe someone was stalking this girl.

The manner of death is most curious. If this was the stalker(s), I'll say it again, I don't think death was intended. Perhaps fear, perhaps rape, but not death. I think that may have been a mistake. If it was outside the home.
 
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